I think that was the general idea. The question is whether anyone can actually prove this to be the case.

Or do we have to do something other than science? — bert1

Every field of inquiry has its limitations. Philosophy and logic can take over from science where science no longer has an answer. But we need to remember that some questions may remain unanswered.

Oh, and what is "good"? — baker

Maybe neo-Marxism and Stalinism?

All the woo (e.g. "subtle bodies" "astral projections" "clairvoyance") jibber-jabbered already on this thread is just folks making shit up ex post facto generalized and myth-ified aka "New Agery". — 180 Proof

I don't think it is "New Agery" at all. It is anti-materialism in the venerable tradition of some of the greatest philosophers in history such as Plato, Plotinus and many others.

I thought that the idea of the astral body probably goes back to Plato. — Jack Cummins

The astral body or vehicle (ochema) is the soul’s chariot in Plato’s Chariot Allegory in the Phaedrus (246a–254e).

Plato, Phaedrus, section 246b (tufts.edu)

But it is also mentioned in Plotinus, Iamblichus and others.

Another countering hypothesis is that dreams don't really "mean" anything at all; that the entire act of interpreting a dream's meaning is akin to pondering why the gods sent that thunderstorm our way. — InPitzotl

This may be so in some or most cases. But what abut dreams in which the dream events actually occur in real life one or two days later? This seems to have implications that go far beyond the issue of "meaning" or "interpretation".

I definitely have experiences on the borderline of sleep in which I feel unable to move, and I think it is called sleep paralysis. Often, I have seen very strange entities in such sleep states. I do have positive experiences too. A couple of months ago I was awake, but felt intense heat in my spine, and drifted into a state of being partially asleep and for some time, I saw flashes of white light. It felt like some kind of 'kundalini' awakening, and it felt positive really. — Jack Cummins

My own experience is not "negative" as such. The only "unpleasant" sensation is the complete inability to move the physical body. This tends to happen on waking from sleep. I'm not terribly convinced by the medical description of sleep paralysis though there may be some truth to it. I think what is really happening is that that the astral body (ochema) is out of alignment with the physical body, e.g., during sleep, and then it takes some time to realign itself with the physical body. One of the more interesting phenomena that accompanies this is a sensation of what I can only describe as a form of "electrical discharge" like a mini-lightning passing through the body. This is said to be normal when the soul returns to the physical body after an out of body experience (OBE), whether spontaneous or controlled.

I have heard that dreams of falling, on the verge of sleep, are connected to going into the astral dimension. I have these frequently and they often jolt me awake. — Jack Cummins

Yes, the Greek philosophers were naturally aware of the existence of a subtle body. Interest in it seems to have become more prominent by the time of Iamblichus and others, but another possibility is that at the time of Plato occult teachings were transmitted orally hence there are fewer written records from that period.

But you are right about dreams of falling at the start of sleep. A related experience is when you are awake but seem to be somewhere outside the physical body which you are trying to move but remains totally immovable despite all efforts, giving rise to the rather unpleasant impression that you have "died" or are "about to die". Fortunately, it tends to only last for a few minutes. Perhaps this illustrates the danger of experimenting with things one has no knowledge or experience of. You would probably have to devote a lot of time and practice to develop and master even a fraction of your paranormal abilities. So, I think it's a personal decision as to how deep one wants to delve into it.

Of course, the idea does involve the belief that the astral body is there all the time, and is involved in the emotional life and also comes into play when people get sick .It is closely related to the idea of auras, which some people claim that they can see. — Jack Cummins

The term for "astral body" in the Greek (Platonist) tradition is όχημα ochema, literally, “vehicle” a kind of subtle body the soul uses in dreams, out of body states, or on the metaphysical planes of existence in general.

This subtle body is indestructible and eternal and it envelops the soul proper at all times. Basically, a human being consists of (1) spirit (nous or pneuma) or pure intelligence, (2) soul (psyche) or psycho-mental complex along with an invisible subtle body, and (3) visible physical body (soma). As the subtle body (ochema) consists of a form of quasi-material energy, it may be visible in certain circumstances especially to those who seem to have the ability, but occasionally also to others.

As you say, the astral body does have a close connection with the physical body, in fact, the physical body is said to be an extension or "copy" of the subtle one. The latter is therefore involved in the physical and mental health and well-being of the embodied soul.

Edit. The purification and cultivation of the ochema is what enables the soul to elevate itself to higher realms of experience.

I disagree with the OP. Belief in God is irrelevant to being good, or evil. — Book273

I think the point Banno was trying to make is that those who think that belief in God is necessary for being good are poor, ignorant, and right-wing.

Those that think so have a lower income, less education, tend to the political right and are older than those who do not. — Banno

But this actually supports the view that the richer you are, the more you believe in material possessions and less in God. Or as the Bible puts it, you can't serve two masters, you must choose between God and Mammon (Money). The rich tend to choose the latter and Banno's article seems to confirm this.

As I said, it could have been a big coincidence. But the dream was really clearly different in quality from all my previous ones. — spirit-salamander

Yes, coincidences are possible. However, in my own experience, dreams are sometimes a premonition of events that actually happen soon after, usually within one to three days of an unusually "real" or "lucid" dream that I remember quite clearly for days, and where there is no possibility of "coincidence".

I tend to believe that we all have this ability that is more developed in some than in others and that can be enhanced through training and practice. But, as a rule, when we pay attention to our dreams and our dreaming abilities, the "subconscious" or whatever we choose to call it, tends to respond and become more "communicative" or "cooperative", as if a greater harmony was established between the waking and the dreaming self.

Another ability that some people, including myself, have is to wake up at a certain time without an alarm clock or any other aid. In my case, I usually wake up about ten minutes before the set time. This would seem to suggest that our waking self is in contact with our subconscious at all times. But what normally happens is that people pay little attention to their subconscious or totally ignore it or aren't even aware of its existence except, for example, when they know that they have a part of themselves that dreams or exists in a world of its own.

Nevertheless, the brain, as a precautionary measure, might want to forget dreams so that we don't confuse them with the real. — TheMadFool

The problem with that argument is that people do remember dreams. Perhaps not always and not perfectly, but dream recollection isn't at all unusual. What seems to be the case is that we remember dreams that appear to have a meaning or are otherwise of importance to us personally.

IMO the fact that sometimes people aren't sure whether their experience was a dream or something more real is a separate issue.

God needs to exist (why? Because moral norms and values are the prescriptions and values of God). And if moral norms and values do exist, God exists. — Bartricks

Correct. Historically, laws or rules of proper conduct have always been said to have been given to mankind by God. This goes as far back as the earliest written records, like the Law of Hammurabi (1792 - 1750 BC):

"Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi

The same applies to the Law of Moses, etc.

The idea that laws are not given by God is a modern belief or unexamined superstition that is contradicted by history.

You are confusing this place with a hate site. Go back to 4chan or something. — Olivier5

That's what neo-Marxists usually say when they are reminded of their prophet's own words. Very predictable.

Perhaps dreams aren't really dreams, a statement that makes complete sense since some have voiced the opinion that reality, our waking experience, isn't really real. — TheMadFool

Very true. There is also the possibility that dreams are the real reality and waking experience the dreamed one. Alternatively, we may find that both are just dreams once we've woken up in the morning and realized what the real reality is. It should be interesting to see if Jack - or his thread - is still there.

Engels wrote:

“Darwin, by the way, whom I’m reading just now, is absolutely splendid. There was one aspect of teleology that had yet to be demolished, and that has now been done. Never before has so grandiose an attempt been made to demonstrate historical evolution in Nature, and certainly never to such good effect” - Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Marx-Engels Collected Works [MECW], vol. 40, 441.

Marx wrote:

“Darwin’s work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle… “

MECW, vol. 41: 246–47

So, Marx and Engels:

1. Used Darwinism as "the basis for their class struggle".

2. They believed in a new type of man that "could cope with the new socialist world order".

3. And they believed that Slavic nations had to be eliminated.

All three elements are later found in Nazi ideology.

Engels' article was in Marx's newspaper. And Marx himself said similar things about his generation having to go down to make room for those who were fit for the new socialist world order.

"The revolution, which finds here not its end, but its organizational beginning, is no short-lived revolution. The present generation is like the Jews whom Moses led through the wilderness. It not only has a new world to conquer, it must go under in order to make room for the men who are able to cope with a new world"

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/ch03.htm

Until the truth is discovered, we may speculate all we want without being right/wrong about what dreaming is all about. — TheMadFool

Well, the OP seems to be about what purpose people think dreams have and how they understand them.

I am raising the question of the purpose of dreams and understanding them. — Jack Cummins

People can experience and interpret dreams differently. As dreams are a subjective experience, what is "right" or "wrong" may ultimately be a subjective decision. It doesn't mean that people can't exchange views or "speculate" about them.

Marx was not a racist, and certainly not an antisemite. You seem a bit confused. — Olivier5

I don't think I'm any more confused than yourself.

Marx and Engels were social Darwinists and definitely advocated the extermination of Slavic nations, for example. See "The Magyar Struggle", etc.

https://historum.com/threads/friedrich-engels-slavophobia.181776/

This later became a central plank in the Nazi program.

It was inspired by an ideology that was resolutely modern and secular, a form of social Darwinism. — Olivier5

Correct. And the social Darwinists the Nazis learned from were none other than Marx and Engels who believed that their generation had to go under to make place for a new type of Socialist Man.

Marx and Engels also believed that the Slavs were an inferior, reactionary race that had to be wiped out in a revolutionary world war ....

Unfortunately God doesn’t say how to act, people say how to act, and people aren’t God (supreme Good). — praxis

True, people aren't God. But people say that God gave them the laws according to which they act.

See, for example, the Law of Hammurabi (1792 - 1750 BC):

"Hammurabi is best known for having issued the Code of Hammurabi, which he claimed to have received from Shamash, the Babylonian god of justice"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi

I am saying that the ethos of the Nazi's draws source material in the Christian tradition — Tom Storm

Yes, there were some links there but I think that the Jews were despised for different reasons by different groups:

1. For Christians, they were guilty of killing Jesus.

2. For Marx and his followers they were guilty of being bourgeois money-lovers.

3. For the Nazis they were guilty of (1) supporting Bolshevism and (2) of being an alien race.

The Nazis' argument (2) went back to the 1800s and before.

See also Marx's critique of German Jews that later appears in Nazi propaganda.

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/

Maybe my Crohn's/Colitis is causing lack of absorption or something. — Down The Rabbit Hole

Or the subconscious may have its own logic as @Jack says. You can always try telling it to look into it and see what it comes up with.

Atheists prefer to attack these crazy invented views than the real deal partly, no doubt, because they are often too dumb to be able to distinguish them.[/quote]

You might be right there. But why would they attack anyone in the first place? Are they dumb or malicious? Or perhaps both?

Mayhaps, the brain is generating possible worlds, different scenarios, contemplating hypotheticals i.e. imagining "what if?" To what end though is a mystery to me. What's the purpose of thinking hypothetically? — TheMadFool

My personal impression is that dreams have more than just one purpose, e.g.:

1. One possibility is that the mind processes and assimilates experiences that it had no opportunity to deal with during waking.

2. Thinking or dreaming hypothetically may be another way of learning, developing ideas, or preparing us for unforeseen situations.

3. Dreams may contain "signs of the future" as suggested by @Jack.

4. Another possibility is that humans leave "thought imprints" on surrounding objects in the same way we leave scent particles and other traces that can be picked up by animals or scientific instruments. We then unconsciously pick them up through contact with those objects, e.g., a chair in a restaurant or coffee shop, and then "read" and process the information via images seen in dreams. This would be the case when we dream of objects and persons with whom we have no known connections.

There are other "metaphysical" possibilities but I don't think we need to go into them here.

From the article cited in the OP, to which scant attention has been paid ... — Banno

I think we have paid attention.

However, if countries with higher GDP per capita are less likely to tie belief in God to morality, this would appear to confirm the position of theists, viz., that the wealthier people are, the more they are inclined to believe in material possessions and less in God.

Otherwise put, man cannot have two masters, it’s either God or Mammon (Matthew 6:24). And the rich often go for the latter. The article seems to support this.

as a matter of fact (you may hold what beliefs you like) is whatever "God" refers to altogether a creation of human intellect and nothing else? Or is it something else? — tim wood

As you may be aware, this is a question that philosophy has aimed to answer for a very long time and the debate is still ongoing. Meantime, people are free to hold what beliefs they like, as you say.

Anything that involves words can be dismissed as "word games" if that's what you want to do. That includes philosophy, ethics, law, politics, and everything else.

If "we take" then it is no God at all, but a human idea, and being good is acting is harmony with a human idea. — tim wood

If God is a form of universal consciousness, then the higher ideas or ideals of man are expressions of the mind of God.

Naturally ... when something is repressed ... it will appear on your dreams ... and it does appear ... in priests dreams ... in nuns dreams ... as ... a nightmare ... hence ... pedophilia and other sexual perversions ... — Anand-Haqq

I doubt that pedophilia must be the result of repression. It can equally stem from lack of control and a disturbed mind. And it existed long before Christianity. I don't see any connection with religion.

This whole thread is a straw man. What respectable moral philosopher has ever argued that belief in God is necessary for doing good? — Bartricks

It depends on how you define "God". If we take God to be the supreme Good, then being good is acting in harmony with God.

But I agree that the thread may be a straw man. With the US election approaching, there may have been a decision to take up political activism and have a go at the opposition. And whether activism can answer a philosophical question is doubtful. Or, as you say, silly.

Of course it was an existing Prussian tradition from the 1800s.

"Imperial Germany had come via war and political intrigue to creation in 1871 after a successful Prussian conflict with France. Like all other countries involved in the conflict, they believed that God was on their side, hence “Gott Mit Uns” (“God is with us”) stamped on the belt buckle of every Prussian (but not German) infantryman. Prussia was the biggest state of this Empire and had a majority of people who were rather militant Protestants"

http://ww1centenary.oucs.ox.ac.uk/religion/gott-mit-uns/

I do believe that dreams (and sleep) are important in many ways. — Jack Cummins

Yes, sleep deprivation can lead to a number of physical and psychological problems.

Lucid dreaming can happen accidentally and it probably happens more often than is commonly assumed, only that people don't know what it is and just brush it off as a "normal" dream.

It is interesting that people who believe not to have this ability, soon find that it can be done with a bit of practice. In my view, this shows that there is a lot more to our consciousness (and to ourselves in general) that we only become aware of when we start paying attention to it.

As already stated in my reply to @MAYAEL, I take lucid dreaming in the context of attaining higher states of consciousness as part of the general inquiry into the nature of the subject of experience.

In my experience, asking the question "who am I?" or "who is experiencing this?" tends to help in going behind and above the everyday awareness of who we are.

I think, in philosophical terms, as pointed out by Plato, Plotinus, and others the emphasis must always be placed on the subject, not on the object, because this is the only way to find out who we really are, which is why "Know Thyself" (Gnothi Seauton) was central to philosophical inquiry among the original philosophers of Greece and other places.

Focusing on the subject instead of the object of lucid dream experience also helps prevent us from "losing ourselves" in the experience.

I don't dream anymore. Not that I can remember anyway — Down The Rabbit Hole

Inability to dream can be a sign of lack of certain vitamins or minerals in your system or some other medical condition. In Ancient Greece and other cultures certain plants were used as an aid to stimulate dreams. Wreaths of rosemary or oregano were worn on the head or twigs placed under the pillow. Apparently, basil has the same effect. The plants can also be eaten or essential oils from them inhaled.

there were times that i was asleep for (the. mind perceived time span ) of a week or 2 and in reality it had just been a 9hr night and I woke up so confused as to what day it was and why i was in my bed at home — MAYAEL

Correct. That can easily happen if you overdo it. Lucid dreaming normally requires some mental preparation and training and is best done under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing.

However, in metaphysical terms, lucid dreaming is just a stage on the path to higher states of consciousness. It isn't something that you do for fun and even less to "lose yourself" in it.

The problem arises when people mistake it for some kind of pastime.

As the progressives have lost their vision for the future, and turned into managers of the status quo, — Echarmion

I'm not sure they ever had a vision for the future except improving their own bank balance. Liberalism was started by the commercial classes that wanted more profit for themselves and less for the clergy and aristocracy.

What i mean was my dreams started lasting a really long time so much so that it was really starting to jack with my perspective of reality . — MAYAEL

That may equally happen with philosophizing and other intellectual or even physical activities.

Everything in moderation (pan metron ariston), as they used to say.

Did anyone ever stop to think that maybe the purpose of dreaming is to dream? — James Riley

Yes, but what if it's a multi-purpose function?

Do they have a purpose and meaning? — Jack Cummins

In my view, they do. Dreams re-connect us with a deeper reality within and around us that we tend to forget about during waking time. And they provide us with information that can be valuable if we learn how to read or interpret them.

I also think they play an important role in our psychological and spiritual development.

The universe, at least the solar system we live in, does seem to be mathematically constructed.

As for our bodies, there are 3 finger bones, segments, or knuckles to each of our fingers.

When we finger-count by touching each finger segment with the tip of our right thumb (e.g., starting with the tip of the little finger) we obtain a total of 12.

Then we count 5 sets of 12 on the 5 fingers of our left hand, obtaining a total of 60. The numeral system of the Mesopotamians was sexagesimal (base 60).

There are 12 months (new or full moons) in a year, 12 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, etc.

There are also 12 constellations (1 for every month) which multiplied by 30 days yields 360 degrees into which the circular vault of heaven and by extension, any circle, is divided.

13 represented the intercalary month of 5 days added to the 360 (12 x 30) days of the 12-month year.

It all goes back to finger-counting and Egyptian and Sumerian astronomy and time-keeping. Astronomy was related to religion and later philosophy. Hence the importance of astronomy and math to Greek philosophy which aimed to look at the universe as a divinely ordered reality which, on the face of it, it probably is.

The Universal History Of Numbers - Internet Archive