• God & Existence

    Aplologies accepted. But not saying anything because of being afraid of an asinus asinum fricat ...
    (I let you complete the sentence. Anything will do! :smile:)
  • God & Existence

    Pity! I hoped that my suggestion about seing existence from a different angle and its relativity/subjectivity aspect --both of which actually support your thesis, what an irony!-- would appeal to you. I feel that you have just ignore them ...
  • God & Existence
    The issue is, it seems, rather simple: We don't question the existence of mud, but we're unsure of the existence of Golems. Why? What's the reason for this differential treatment of mud & Golems (mud beings)?Agent Smith
    The difference lies in 1) their physicality and 2) the proof of their existence in the physical world.
    However, as far as their existence is concerned, they both exist, although in different "universes": one is physical (objective) and the other is mental (subjective). OK, the second can easily be doubted. However, the first too can be doubted. For one thing, perceptions differ from one person to another. Also experiments can show different results based on different conditions etc. That is what I strongly maintain that there is no objective reality, hence the physical existence of something can also be questioned. And that is why I brought up the limitations of the definition of "existence".

    See where all that leads? The term "existence" is relative. And it can be applied to both physical and non-physical things.
  • God & Existence

    @Agent, I can't get it. You refer to God as "being a nonphysical entity that exists". But according to the definition of "physical" and "existence" that you offer, only physical things exist. Isn't there a crying contradiction here?

    Now, this is a good occasion to mention that the definition of the words "exist" and "existence" that dictionaries give, which also reflect the general view on these terms, is very limited and/or one-sided. There are millions of things that are not physical --at least in the sense of being perceivable through the senses-- and yet we say and agree that they exist, i.e. we accept their existence. I don't know where to start ... Facts, information/data, acts/actions, ... the list is endless. Even ideas exist, at least for the individuals who have them, as well as all sort of things that individuals experience. In that sense, we can say that God exists, at least for those who have experienced his presence (in whatever way) or even can prove his existence by reasoning.
    So, maybe you should approach the subject in this way ...
  • God & Existence
    Update
    To put this thread back on track.
    Define
    1. Existence: That which can be perceived (with our senses & instruments( exists.
    2. Physical: That which is matter and/or energy. Both are perceived (accurately) with instruments.
    Agent Smith

    Where does "God" fit in this? Shouldn't "back on track" refer to the subject, which is "God & Existence"?

    Anyway, what conclusion can be drawn after having defined "existence" and "physical"?
  • All claims are justifiable.

    I cannot justifiably say any claim is NOT data, nor can I say it's data that points to a precise meaning, therefore all claims are justifiable.Varde
    I think this an incorrect argument. Let's see the meaning of the 3 basic elements involved here:
    "Justifiable" means able to be shown to be right or reasonable.
    "Data" refer to facts, i.e. things that are known or proved to be true.
    "Claim" is an assertion that something is true.
    So, we can say that data ARE justifiable, since they are known to be true. But claims are only assertions, so they are NEITHER data NOR justifiable.
  • Paradox: Do women deserve more rights/chance of survival in society?
    Are full-time employees or employers more important in the economy? ... there is a greater probability of survival for the economy the more there are employeesithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
    Good example. This is one aspect of the case. There are more. For example, an emloyer can do the job of the employee if needed. (It happens when his business cannot afford hiring more employees to cover its needs . But the opposite is rarily the case. E.g. in a farm, workers know and can do only their job --plowing, harvesting, animal caring, etc.-- but they don't know or can manage the whole farm, they don't have the money needed to maintain the business, etc. In other words, the employer, as the owner of the farm can do everyting if needed. Withoud him, most probably there would not be a farm. In a case of economic crisis or other adverse factors like Covid lock downs, those who get unemployed are the employees. The employer/owner of the business usually is still working and earns some money. So, who is more valuable: the employer or the employee? And in prosperous times, who is the one who is the only who offers jobs to people so that they can maintain themselves and their families?

    Anyway, in actuality, we don't think or talk about who is more valueable or necessary: we assume that both employers and employees are equally valuable and necessary for a prosperous economy. The same goes with men and women in the field of reproduction. And I think this is fair.
  • Paradox: Do women deserve more rights/chance of survival in society?

    Women are more necessary in biological terms than men.ithinkthereforeidontgiveaf
    Isn't this an arbitrary statement? It is not backed up with reasoning or any evidence. Normally, one would think that none of the two is more necessary than the other, since both are needed to reproduce a new life.

    But the subject is not so simple as it looks ...

    Since the analogy of men to women can be generally considered as one to one, the answer to the question of who is more valuable/necessary than the other would have to depend on other factors. For example, the percentage of men who are reproductive and the percentage of women who are fertile. Right? (Of course, some men are more reproductive than others and some women are more fertile than others, but we cannot take these factors because I don't think there are statistics about these things.)
    So, I looked in the Web about Are there more reproductive men than fertile women? and got the following reference first:

    "Across the world, is men’s fertility different from that of women?"
    (https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_POPSOC_548_0001--across-the-world-is-men-s-fertility.htm)
    (Note: The term "fertility" is used for both men and women. Well, what can I say? These are supposed to be experts! :smile:)
    The following finding is reported: "While the mean number of children per woman ranges between 1 and 8, depending on the country, the differences in male fertility are much greater."
    So, if we rely on the above finding, we can say that, from a fertility aspect, women are more valuable/necessary than men and they deserve more rights than men in terms of survival.

    Now, there are many more factors involved in the equation than fertility, e.g. mortality. (Some would also include "intelligence", but I don't consider there's a difference between the two sexes in that aspect.)

    So, you may ask, if women are more vulnerable/valuable/necessary than men, and thus they should have more rights than men as a means of protection, how comes that men have generally more rights or prevail in key posts in most areas in society, in general? Right?

    Well, let's look at mortality, which will show us if women are in more danger than men and so they need more protection.
    I found the following answer/report on "Do men or women have a higher mortality rate?" (https://www.prb.org/resources/the-gender-gap-in-u-s-mortality/)
    "Today, women have lower mortality rates at every age.

    So, based on all that, I can conclude that women do not need more protection than men.
    And that there's no paradox actually! :smile:
  • God & Existence
    There may not be a static reality, but some things will never change.Wayfarer
    This is true. For instance, most of my habits never change! :grin:
  • Why does time move forward?
    Its almost three in the night here...Hillary
    As I can see from the time stamps, I also posted that 12 hrs ago ... same time zone ...
  • Why does time move forward?
    But not back to time zero...Hillary
    No, certainly not that! :smile:
  • Why does time move forward?
    I have seen a guy in English parliament smashing his writchwatch! Time's up!Hillary
    :up: :grin:
    (Excellent way to make his point and at the same time to get rid of his watch that didn't work well! :grin:)
  • Why does time move forward?
    It would be called a discussion among continental philosophers, who use close readings of texts to buttress their arguments. Not so much on this site, though.Joshs
    Funny ... I have stepped on "Al-Ghazali’s 'The Incoherence of the Philosophers'" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers). I have not read the article. It might be fun ... I just put it on my --ever growing-- TOREAD list!

    I quoted those people because I agree with their views and they make a good starting point for discussionJoshs
    I know. It's only logical that people do that. Yet, what happens, even when you just quote someone, is that one has to know the context in which this quote appears, and to know that one has to read one or more works of the referenced philosophers. And this is quite impossible in a discussion, esp. when many such references appear in it. This happened when I once criticized a Wittgenstein's quote, nbut with arguments and all ... Many then have suggested to me to read his "Tractatus" or even his work, in general. Godssake, man! Just tell me where I am wrong and why. Well, no one did! See what I mean?

    So if you don’t care what Bergson, Prigogine or Smolen think about this issue then you don’t care what I thinkJoshs
    No, this is not true at all. As I told you, I just ask you to tell me your personal opinion. You don't need to bring in philosophers or other authotities or experts to support your opinion.

    I would love it if you used quotes to clarify your position.Joshs
    I rarely do so. I don't need to do that. I have to clarify my position --and I usually do that-- myself. If I can't it means that my opinion or explanation is not good or I have not understood the subject. Einstein has said “If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.” Here, I used a quote myself! :smile: (But only after I have made my point and because I love this quote! :smile:)
  • Why does time move forward?
    The clock can't be stopped.Hillary
    It can ... If take its battery out or I break it! :grin:

    There is no configuration of objects that stays the same forever. The global arrangement of matter always moves in one direction.Hillary
    I agree. Well, except that matter can move in all kinds of directions! :smile:
  • Why does time move forward?

    Glad you agree! :smile:
  • God & Existence
    But 'real for whom?' then raises the issue of subjectivism - that what is real is up to you or me.Wayfarer
    Exactly. Isn't that what I have said already? You have even quoted me on that! :smile:

    But it can't be that way - what if I change my mind? Does something that was real then become unreal? It can't be dependent on your or my say-so.Wayfarer
    Everyone can and does change one's mind from time to time. And one's reality changes accordingly. What difference does this make? There's no stable, static reality. Even if one thinks of reality as the physical universe --which is wrong-- that changes too, in fact, on a constant basis. There's nothing static and never changing, except such abtract ideas as infinity, eternity, God, etc.

    ... This will take long. I will come back to it later ...
  • Why does time move forward?
    What if time is static, without the possibility to move?Hillary
    In Physics, "static" refers to bodies at rest or forces in equilibrium. That is, it refers to physical things. Time is not one of them. But even then, something static has the possibility to change state, like something "stationary" that I mentioned earlier.
  • Why does time move forward?
    Smolin argues ... Prigogine contends ... for Bergson it is ,,,Joshs
    It is good that you know about these guys and their opinions. I also know of a lot of guys who have or had an opinion about time. If cite them, and then other TPF members cite from their own guys, would that be called a "discussion"?

    I believe that we are here to express our opinion, however it is formed. If, for example, I ask you, "What do you think about death?", would you answer "Well, Kierkegaard in his Philosophical Fragments said that ...". I don't care about what Kierkegaard said. I asked what do you think.
  • Why does time move forward?
    Measurement presupposes a concept of measurement,Joshs
    There's no concept of "measurment". Measutement is an action. (Look up both words, "measurment" and "concept".)

    Time understood according to certain long-standing assumptions shared by philosophy and science is just a dimension.Joshs
    Right. I have said that already.

    But to philosophers like Bergson and the phenomenologists it is the structure of reality itself.Joshs
    Well, I respect their opinion. For me this doesn't make any sense at all.

    If time as dimension is a human invention, what features of the world can you point to that are not human inventions?Joshs
    I'm not sure what you are asking here. Anyway, for one thing, the universe is not a human invention. Or, if you are talking about words/language, these are human inventions. But this is too obvious ...
  • Why does time move forward?
    There are only irreversible particle processes. Don't they move in a stationary time?Hillary
    "Stationary" means "not moving". The possibility of moving is implied. Water can be stationary. A statue is stationary. Inflation can be stationary. They can all move but they don't.
    Time cannot be stationary because it not something that can actually move. Only figuratively, e.g. "times flies", "time passes by", "time has topped" ...
  • Why does time move forward?
    Not according to Ilya Prigogine or Lee Smolen. For them time is fundamentally unidirectional..Joshs
    I don't know about these persons. And good for them if they believe that "time is fundamentally unidirectional". (BTW, does "fundamentally" mean that it can also be otherwise?)

    We didnt create time, although we create various theories about time.Joshs
    I didn't say that we have created time. That would be totally ridiculous. I talked about the concept of time. In fact, in bold letters. I couldn't stress it more ...

    The things we are attempting to measure are in themselves incoherent without the prior being of time.Joshs
    We are not "attempting" to measure. We are measuring them. Time is just a dimension. As is length. They do not actually exst.
  • Why does time move forward?
    Well, I don't. I don't know that time is unidirectional.
    — Alkis Piskas
    Don't you think time goes forward only?
    Hillary
    I didn't say only that, did I? I also said that time does not move at all. My whole point was that!
  • Why does time move forward?

    Thanks for both your :up: and your reading reference.

    BTW, in your quote of mine you have left out the most important part, namely, that time does not move at all. My whole point was that. (Just "I don't know that time is moving in one direction" can well mean that I think time is moving in two directions! :grin:)
  • God & Existence
    according to today's empiricist philosophy only that which can be conceived of as existing in time and space is considered real.Wayfarer
    I would add "occurring", since "existing" limits things to static ones.

    Then, a question arises: are things that are considered real only physical or are non-physical things also included? For example, if I think of a solution to a problem --which does not occur in space and is not of a physical nature-- it is real for me, and I can also prove it so that it becomes real to others too.

    This, as you can see, brings in the quite common question: "Real for whom?" Because what is real for me might not be real for you and vice versa.

    As a result of all that, the statement "only that which can be conceived of as existing in time and space is considered real" --besides being incomplete, as I mentioned at start-- is unfounded, or ambiguous at best.
  • Why does time move forward?

    We all know it. Time is unidirectionalEugeneW
    Well, I don't. I don't know that time is unidirectional. That is, I don't know that time is moving in one direction. In fact, I don't think that time is moving at all. The wind moves in one direction. The water in a river moves in one direction. The earth moves around the sun in one direction. All these things have one thing in common: they are physical. Time is not. Thus it cannot move. It is itself movement. In the sense that it represents movement and change.

    The unidirectionality of time is an illusion. It is we who have assigned this quality time. After of course having created the concept of time itself. Time itself does not exist. Not more than length, width and height exist. They are all dimensions. We have create them for purposes of measurement, comparison and reference. So we call the Earth's rotation around its axis a "day" and its orbit around the Sun a "year". It is these movements that are unidirectional. Not time.

    ***

    As for the reason why all these movements are unidirectional, it can be found in Laws of Physics..
  • Can God construct a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?

    This is a paradox one might come across if they consider God's omnipotence. If the answer is yes, then there is one thing he can't do (lift a heavy enough rock), which contradicts the definition of omnipotence (being able to do anything). The same applies if the answer is no. How would you solve this paradox?Cidat
    I can't solve it as a paradox, but I can as a sophism! :smile:
    Because it is not a real paradox, but a "pseudo-paradox" as I call these sophisms. Here's why: They are based on false and/or arbitrary assumptions/premises, which are then refuted in a logical and acceptable way, and this is how people are misled! There are indeed a lot of them about God. Guess why. Exactly, they are based on an arbitrary assumption/premise that God exists. Then, they continue with more arbitrary assumptions/premises regarding e.g. God's qualities, such as omnipotence.

    There are some that introduce several of them in the same "paradox", such as "omniscience" and "omnibenevolence", like the so-called "Epicurus God Paradox" in which the "sophist" refutes them one after the other!

    See what's happening here? I introduce arbitrary, imaginary inexistent elements as given and then I refute them one by one as inexistent! How more lame that could be? :smile:
  • Brain Replacement

    Well, have you pondered on it?
    Have you checked what AI (Artificial Intelligence) actually is? Do you still believe it's something stupid?
  • Brain Replacement
    AI is AS, artificial stupidityHaglund
    Well, AI is among my programming fields and interests! :grin:

    (I will have a break now and let you ponder at it .. :smile:)
  • Brain Replacement

    Re cartooning and animation: Their heroes are so much alive and intelligent ... Some people might believe that some day they will acquire a mind and consciousness of their own! :grin:
  • Brain Replacement
    And the people who take it seriously are even assumed scientists,Haglund
    Indeed. How "unscientific" this is, eh? :grin: A big irony, isn't it?

    People though are impressed by science somehow and continue the mythHaglund
    I'm much impressed with science too, but one has to put things in their right perspective ... "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar ..."

    just let it evolve, instead of trying to accomplish it by a hyperspeedy clocktime and massive quantities of data, following sophisticated programs.Haglund
    Right. Let them try ... (Although they could invest their time in much more productive things...)
  • Brain Replacement
    I have in mind ordinary people, say many who are religious, which may amount to more than half of the world population. It's my impression that they often do think there's something more to mind than brain.Manuel
    Oh, I see. Certainly there are. But, as you say, they "think there's something more to mind ...". Well, I don't consider this enough, i.e. a "solid" awareneness, but it is certainly better than not thinkg that at all! And we are speaking of people in the West. Because in the East, people are more spiritiual and have a quite "solid" awareness regarding this subject. One can realize this from the difference between Western and Eatern tradition, philosopy, etc.

    Of course, in a forum like this, it's going to be very rare.Manuel
    Exactly. And this is what worries me. I find it somewhat "unnatural" ...

    It was very much alive in the neo-Platonist tradition up until, roughly after Newton.Manuel
    True. I don't know though when "things" started to change and why ... It's something worth exploring ...
  • Brain Replacement
    Dreams are great! Let them try to program one!Haglund
    Right. As a cartoon maybe ... :smile:
  • Brain Replacement
    for many people, there is such a thing as a soul, to which we can attach certain aspects of mind.Manuel
    Oh, where? Not in here I guess ... I have met only a couple ones here ...
    I' am afraid I'm contacting the wrong people! :grin:
  • Brain Replacement
    But do they want you to be you againHaglund
    :grin:
  • Brain Replacement
    the particles being you, can never be you again.Haglund
    Are you indeed "your particles"?
  • Brain Replacement
    he Ship of Theseus. What if we reassemble your brain parts. What then?Agent Smith
    Interesting point.
    It has been said that this problem —quite old indeed!— was answered by Heraclitus with his famous saying "No man ever steps in the same river twice". However, this is not so right, because he should talk instead about **the waters of the river**, since the river is always the same. Its **identity** does not change. The same applies to the ship of Theseus. Its wearing down, damages etc. do not change the fact that this is the same ship.
    We use to say, *“After that, I was never the same person”*, when an event has affected us deeply. But this is only a figure of speech. We are always the same person, for us and the other people.

    Now, if we disassemble and reassemble the brain parts of a person, and assume of course that he will survive --I doubt that-- although his identity will not change, i.e. we will refer to the same entity, the same person, his mind and consiousness would be so messed up that he would most probably look a different person ...
  • Brain Replacement
    Replace one half of the brain by a synthetic. Dream along...Haglund
    Yet, it seems that a lot of people prefer dreaming ... It's more thrilling! :smile:
    (Only that dreaming has no place in here and in philosophy in general ...)
  • Brain Replacement
    book, "Artificial You"? It was written by Susan Schneider,Bret Bernhoft
    I just gave a look about the book and saw that it talks about AI.
    I think that discussions relating AI/computers to brain/consciousness have been exhausted in here (and elsewhere) and the results --based on unrefuted and unrefutable arguments-- have classified them as "sci-fi material". (Yet, I' am afraid that this is far from being accepted by most people.)

    Realizing, establishing and accepting widely that consciouscness is separate from the body and cannot be incorporated in a machine --including the human brain-- would be a huge and real progress for humanity!
  • Brain Replacement
    I agree, so what happens when that continuity is broken by periods of non-consciousness? Death and rebirth?RogueAI
    Not if one considers that consciousness is separate from the body. Death and rebirth concern the body. Although I believe that such an experiment would create such a shock for the individual that he could not survive it.