I think you at least need this aforementioned mentality as a starting point, you are unique but you should at least look at how others are, and evidence your difference by the merit of your behaviour. It's always the most self-unaware that fail to understand others, and characterise others unfavourably, and then themselves in a positive way. The problem is that you're too damn smart, and it's hard to outsmart yourself. We can make compelling reasons that excuse our bad behaviour or interpret things in ways favourable to us, or the opposite if self-esteem is low. It is not only very helpful to learn about others to learn about yourself, but by listening to people you relate with and by learning from them, you might be able to overcome difficulties or challenges and gain valuable insights that would take you years of difficulty to figure out by yourself. — Judaka

Thank you Judaka.

I myself have tended toward lower self esteem and being hard on myself. Downright abusive, frankly. I've been making my way back from years of self inflicted damage while learning how to cultivate a healthy and balanced sense of self.

Your points here of reminding one to reality check by means of interpersonal relationships is golden! This strikes me as a useful tool.

How did you personally come to learn about your own biases? Did you seek for them? Did you feel initial resistance when it was time to face and then break those belief systems down and if so, what did you find to be the most memorable to overcome the tendency to cling to what is familiar?

I’d like to talk about the experience of awareness. What it feels like from the inside. — T Clark

If I may, how would you describe the experience of awareness from the outside?

I’d like to make a distinction here between awareness and consciousness. — T Clark

This is interesting. I'll have to think more about these distinctions. How did you come to the...awareness, that awareness is pre-verbal? This brings up quite a bit for me.

I'm my own personal journey with working through my internal relationship with emotions, as I'm sure many others are as well. Emotions are a unique aspect of our whole experience on earth. Thank you for sharing a little bit of what that has been like for you.

It can be quite the shift to be going about the flow and to stop and simply tune into the deeper felt layers of what is unfolding. Being able to know what an emotion is for example, what it means and to put words to it, can be a challenge. From what you have said here, that sounds like at least part of your description of consciousness?

Would we say then that awareness is the knowing that there is something occurring within ourselves and consciousness is the ability to identify and describe what is felt? At least, within the realm of emotion as the plugged in variable to the equation here.

This is my first post and in honor of transparency, I feel a smidge out of my league. — Universal Student

Perhaps it is my youth (I have the sense that I am on the younger end of the spectrum of folks here) which will not prevent my curiosity from propelling me forward.

I guess the most important part of self-awareness for me is the understanding that it is nothing special, nothing magic. It's something we do every day and something we can get better at. There's one rule, one practice - just pay attention. And then, pay attention to paying attention.

I'm going to punt now, which is cheating. Forgive me. This is the original post from a discussion I started more than five years ago. Still one of my favorites. Lots of smart self-aware people participated. — T Clark

I'm late to the game in getting around to these responses but the energy and effort is still bouncing around in here and wants to move! At the very least, they're is a wealth of back and forth from all of you awesome humans for me to read through and that alone, is valued.

I appreciate this thought Clark. I often, though less so than a couple of years ago, have to remind myself that many of the things that I think, feel and experience are all simply normal aspects of the grounded, physical human experience. Doing so does wonders for keeping my perception of reality within reasonable parameters of truth. At least, that's the idea.

And hey! Recycled or not, useful is useful. I'm not complaining. I'm just appreciative for the receptivity.

This is my first post and in honor of transparency, I feel a smidge out of my league.

I hope Universal Student is still around. — Amity

I am! I am working towards my responses, though I've been reading as these moves along and digesting. I am in the middle of a big transition as we are moving into a new space, so my focus is on getting through the big pieces of that while it's right in front of me and then I'll be able to bring more energy and focus into being apart of the conversations here.

To address all here, as I am reading through these responses and working my way towards formulating my own, I feel immense gratitude at the willingness of others to share here within this space.

I find that being able to share ideas and thoughts with other inquisitive beings to be far more valuable than an abundance of material wealth. It is a beautiful thing that we can experience.

Thank you, for both yourselves and for myself, for spending the energy to do so.

I am appreciative that we are all willing to learn, explore and seek understanding.

I may be unrushed to respond, but I wanted to take the moment before heading off to work to share this felt experience of appreciation and love that is flooding in - openly!

Ah, I see this expansion of thoughts and ideas only after I've responded to your previous post. I look forward to digesting these as well.

First note you need to differentiate between the neurobiological awareness of animals and the language and culture expanded conciousness of humans. Awareness is biological. Self awareness is socially constructed. Knowing that should deflate a large part of the problem as it is the neurobiology that is the complicated bit.

Second, it will help to realise that awareness is not about a passive neural display - a representation of the world - that then requires some further mysterious witness. This is the dualistic Cartesian mistake. Awareness is a pragmatic and embodied modelling relation with the world. The brain exists to predict how the world could be in the light of actions that might be taken. It is an active engagement rather than a passive contemplation.

A third thing that could be added when it comes to getting started on the neurobiology is that neuroscientists prefer to talk about awareness in terms of its two critical levels of process - habit and attention. As part of the whole prediction-based design of the brain, it is set up to learn to process the world as automatically and “unconsciously” as possible. Attention only kicks in if the world doesn’t fit the predictions and the brain has to pause to generate some new predictive state that better explains the available evidence. — apokrisis

When we say that awareness doesn't require further witness, how would you say that attention interacts with our subconscious unraveling of experience? Do we have the ability to reason and thus change our habits through attention and doesn't there need to some kind of an awareness of the self during this process? A deeper and more expansive consciousness to our subconscious behavior which allows for change and movement?

Moving into self-awareness, which we are saying is social; do our external interactions not connect to our internal relationship with our sense of self which has the ability should we navigate it to show us where we are wrong in a given moment by means of sharing perceptions with others?

For example, if we feel possessive over an object stemming from the roots of our biological nature and another person triggers this within us by taking the object from us, there is the natural course for the subconscious reaction to occur. If we are only the embodiment of the actions taking place and unable to access any other mode of observation, then how could we experience the flooding in of emotion when we fully realize our actions? What is the source of that feedback?

If we attack the other person and thus gain our object back, that biological urge has been completed and there would be no further need for exploration or inquiry. One would simply continue on because that method works to satisfy those basic needs.

Those cues that we experience seem to be communicating a wealth of wisdom to us, which then allows freedom if chosen to accept it, for us to change our behavior. Would this have been possible without the social aspect of awareness? And could we learn from them without conscious observation of the exchange which took place?

Thank you.

Question. Do you think the copyrighting of ideas/inventions inhibits the development of our species or advances it from a commercial/capitalistic point of view? — Deus

This is interesting!

I think that the human drive to copyright something comes from the desire to claim it as his own. I think that doing so may have advanced us to a certain point from simply that - a materialistic base level of existence. But then for us to continue to attempt to grasp these ideas and try to keep them within our own little houses of self instead of sharing and spreading them toward the whole would ultimately inhibit the spiritual development of humanity and keep us remaining in a more primitive and rudimentary state of consciousness.

My suspicion is that we will be eventually be guided to learn how to let go of this sense of ownership over ideas in the same way that death will show us how to let go of our bodies and adapt to states of transition as we change and from one form to another in the kosmos.

It does seem fascinating that individuals feel a sense of possessiveness over ideas that are simply flowing through them. It is almost as though we are plagiarizing the universe.

As though the wave in the ocean thinks that it is the ocean.

Three key bits of advice here. — apokrisis

This is helpful! I am spending some energy digesting all of what you have shared here before I formulate ideas about these words of advice.

Inquiry should involve both the self and the external world. After all it is our mind the perceives it. — Deus

Agreed that self inquiry is an important step for how can we recognize cognitive dissonance. To question is to open the windows to being wrong, which frees us. External can be tricky to navigate (at least, for me) but useful and probably necessary, as we do co-exist with other beings. I think that there is a bit of truth to every perspective.

And that it is important that we do not deem any reference point as superior or in-superior to another, but merely different and contrasting, revealing to us greater truths.

Firstly we all develop habits and learned behaviour, scrutinising them helps us first recognise that there is a barrier and then equip us with the tools needed to overcome them. — Deus

I appreciate what you are saying about first seeing the barrier but I do not understand how we are then equip with the tools needed to overcome them. Can you elaborate on this please?

I have been shown some tools along the way in my journey, but all of these were shown or hinted to me by external sources who they themselves have walked the path. Some a result of my own seeking and others, offered because they could see more than I. I have then sought to learn how to utilize these and adapt them to my unique needs.

The way that you phrase this brings to mind the idea that a tool could come from an internal source with merely the act of seeing the barrier as a catalyst. This is exciting but the depth of my understanding ends in this moment, at curiosity.

Agreed. To recognize the usefulness of a thing, through interaction and exchange. To experience and thus learn.

So then as virtue desiring beings with vice being ever present how does one not get tempted by it ? — Deus

Maybe the point is preciously that we are tempted by them? How could virtue exist, without the opportunity to restrain from temptation of the corresponding vice? It seems like we need contrast and comparison to maintain a balance of these existing things.

By “innate” do you mean that they appear naturally, or that they are always there but must be cultivated by virtue and wisdom ? — Hello Human

Dormant perhaps, to be awakened and brought forth into potential. If something exists presently, then it has always existed and always will, in some form or another. This removes the linear perspective of time.

What does it mean for wisdom to “reveal” virtue ? — Hello Human

"Reveals" implies that the virtue was always there, within the wisdom.

What does it mean for a quality of virtue to be authentic? — Hello Human

I think that my meaning is that an authentic quality of virtue is true.

And where does courage fit into this according to you ? — Hello Human

I think that courage has a relationship with fear and resistance to change. I myself am still learning the truth and meaning of this word as I approach understanding, so my perspectives may seem particularly wide and open to interpretation with a great deal of room for exploration.

We often hear that courage is doing something even when one feels afraid.

What is fear?

I have exposed myself to fearful circumstances that were highly foolish and irrational. I do not consider doing so to be virtuous. Often, the motivations driving me in those moments seemed to come from some kind of clinging or resistance to change. I was trying to find some way to have control over the unraveling of events and circumstances that were already in motion. I might have then mistakenly thought that this was admirable or some quality to be appreciated but in reflection of those actions now, I see that this was only ignorance underneath the guise of courage. We can tell ourselves anything to justify behavior if we are determined to hold on to those belief structures. These were resistances to the flow and those actions put me in real danger that was harmful to myself and those around me.

I have likewise acted consciously and mindfully, choosing to move in a direction that seemed unfamiliar and thus was perceived as frightening when in reality, there was little real threat or danger and the outcome was more beneficial, healing and useful overall despite my resistances to traveling in that unfamiliar territory. In those circumstances, what I thought was fear was my mind distorting and attempting to predict an outcome which was unknown to me. Allowing myself to explore, remain curious and do something outside of my comfort zone even though I felt what I perceived to be fear required an inner strength and willingness that might resemble courage.

With analogy of a garden, virtue can be like good fruit bearing plants. Weeds like bad qualities that don't bear fruit.
Wisdom might be the process of discriminating between the two, cultivating the garden in order to prevent and eliminate bad plants, and plant and maintain good seeds/plants. — Yohan

This is an interesting and useful analogy. Thank you for sharing.

When you say that virtue is the natural outcome of wisdom, do you mean that wisdom always leads to virtue, or that wisdom encourages the flourishing of virtue ? — Hello Human

My perspective is that aspects of wisdom are a threshold that once reached, resonate within the soul in such an way that virtue naturally will follow. We approach and cross this when we can not longer deny (ignorance) the reality of something. Can rivers choose not to flow into the ocean?

In this way, it seems we are being shaped by things that are beyond our comprehension. I think that this is why when we begin to try to show off our goodness and claim it as our own in the way of ego identification that we feel we are losing our way, because we are losing that deep sense of gratitude for our place and connection within the mysteries of the universe and the true qualities of virtue lose their authenticity.

Virtue can be traced back to wisdom and wisdom reveals virtue. I think that within the territory of virtue and wisdom, the innate qualities of the soul flourish in varying degrees of clarity. Examples of this would be honesty, integrity and resilience, to name a few.

I think that everything that we do is ultimately seeking this clarity. Our actions in each moment simultaneously reveal both our wisdom and our lack of virtue.

But what do you think ? Is virtue really just equal to wisdom, or is there a plurality of virtues, each independent from the other(s) ? Or are all the virtues reducible to something that is not equal to wisdom ? — Hello Human

In my lived experience thus far, I have learned that wisdom comes from understanding and virtue follows as naturally as rivers stream into the ocean.The exchanges and experiences that shape us and "mistakes" that can eventually lead to clarity are the path towards knowing. Once you know something, you can not stop knowing but you can choose to ignore it.

To ignore that which is known is not virtuous. To know, and to behave accordingly is to understand and this I think, is to live virtuously.

Wisdom is knowing that you can't ignore because you have felt the consequences deeply, right down to the core of your being. Virtue is the natural outcome.

An example and metaphor being that if you touch a hot stove enough or for prolonged periods of intervals and the pain that you feel tells you to stop and then you cease repeating this action, then you are no longer behaving out of ignorance to the cause and effect of that particular action. You know from personal experience that the result is painful and that you don't like it. The motivation to not feel the pain again may be enough for you.

Would we call this wisdom or is that threshold to be earned at a soul deep level?

You can break this down even further. By performing an action that causes damage to yourself, you are also harming the body that you inhabit which was freely given to you by the universe.You didn't do anything to earn this body, yet you utilize it. By harming it, you are harming something that ultimately does not belong to you. Perhaps you might realize this if you choose to knowingly harm yourself for a period of time for any myriad of reasons.

Even deeper still, by causing bodily injury to yourself, you will require resources to aid in the healing process. During that period, you may be limited in your typical abilities. These two results pull from your environment and those who you co-exist with. The result is that to continue to do things which cause harm to yourself also saps energy from others. You can easily cause harm to those around you, by harming yourself. The true realization that your actions have an affect on those whom you are connected with brings you in alignment with reality. This ironically painful lesson may come with the realization that you have betrayed your fellow beings and yourself by continuing to act in ignorance. To really understand this, is when I think that we reach wisdom. This leads to greater virtue.

All of intelligent life is seeking that which it recognizes in itself, which is order, a conscience, and motive. Yet when we seek these things in reality we find the opposite. We find a universe slipping always into disorder, sheer depravity instead of conscience, and chaos where there should be a motive. — 64bithuman

The same subatomic particles that make up the cosmos and the billions of years of earth evolution have come together to create the perfect conditions for this moment, andyou are part of that. You just happen to have a brain that is attempting to translate that reality through the filters of societal conditioning, genetics and your experiences.

What you may interpret as chaos, may be ordered beyond your comprehension.

Either choose to devote yourself to aesthetic pleasure or devote yourself to a higher ideal, ultimately, one leads to the next in an ouroboros. — 64bithuman

When you say that our only choices are to melt into hedonism and to live for personal pleasure and satisfaction or to align ourselves with a "higher" ideal, thus trying to abandon the physical realm that we undoubtedly exist in, you are speaking of two extremes that act conceptually as two sides of the same coin. Both paths seek to escape reality. The former desensitizes you to the clarity of the felt experience of everyday life by pushing your ordinary senses into overdrive and the latter winds you up so tightly in belief systems that you don't have enough room to receive a deep breath of oxygen and just take in the universe and your connection to all of existence.

What does it mean to just be, to relax into the middle and allow the pendulum to settle and relax into a state of natural stillness? Perhaps in this state of rest and release, we can truly feel the rhythm of our belonging.

Think of "right" and "wrong" as being determined by the current norms of the society. In this sense, there is in many cases a valid right and wrong, what is consistent with conventional principles. However, when we seek what you call "ultimate truth", we have to have some way to go beyond right and wrong, because the conventional principles which constitute "right", in one's society, may not be consistent with the ultimate truth. In other words, we need to be free to question the current norms of our society, in the way of the skeptic — Metaphysician Undercover

Interesting. Thank you for the reply. Bringing society into it gives me some things to digest.

Yes, that's a good way to put it, the learning process is a shaping. If one's mind is completely closed, as hypericin is afraid of in the op, then no shaping (learning) occurs. In Hegelian dialectics, which I briefly described, the synthesis called sublation is described as "becoming". What is proposed as "what is" is sublated with "is not", and this is synthesized into a new proposal of "what is" (like a compromise), to be sublated all over again, onward and onward, in a process which is not circular, but more like a spiral. This is very similar to what you described, except that position C is a synthesis of the opposing A and B. — Metaphysician Undercover

Thank you. This brings clarity! Instead of shifts in perspective which re-enforce circular patterns and loops that leave no wiggle room for change or the expansion of understanding, we have this spiral pattern allowing us to be more flexible and adaptable so that we can learn from our mistakes and thus improve as a species.

I think we argue a position to bring out all the fine details of that position, and also bring out the details of the counter position which someone else is arguing. The devil is in the details. We should be ready and willing to change our beliefs when the details don't work out right. — Metaphysician Undercover

This is a simple and useful way of looking at opposing positions. Thank you for sharing. It seems like if we approach arguments from a space of willingness to break down belief systems with understanding, not just in the other but with a readiness also to put our own viewpoint under examination; that we can work together to help one another achieve greater degrees of clarity.

So instead of stating any one person is, "right" or "wrong", or even that it doesn't matter which is which, we can further simplify this by stating that there is is no right or wrong. There is merely that position which is different from another and is subject to change.

In attempts to reveal ultimate truth, we must be willing to put that pursuit first before ourselves and that which we have clung to up until any given moment when we may need to return it because it is fully realized to be false.



Perhaps then, this is an aspect of why humans often hold fast to their position even when the details are laid bare. That core readiness is undeveloped. Like a child grasping a comforting blanket, they are not ready to let go. You can't rush fruit to ripen.Though you can create favorable conditions to speed up the process a smidge in some instances.

Your consideration in reply is appreciated. Would you say that we are shaping one another in the processes towards revealing fundamental principles and truth?

What is "wrong" and how does one define and measure this idea against what is "right", which is another idea to grasp. Are these positions perspectives?

While a willingness to question and examine oneself as well as others while shedding biases when they are made known seems an important element to cultivating flexibility, but to what end and what is the core motivation?

If we somehow decide that subject A is right and subject B is wrong, and subject B yields to this and thus changes his position to match that of A, what then? What do you do with that? What is the function of this determination and the resulting shift. How many moments will pass before Subject C comes along and it is somehow determined that both Subject A and now B are wrong and Subject C is right. Then what? Positions change again, resulting in another shift.

If everything is always changing, does it really matter who in whichever moment is right or wrong or is this not leading to a deeper inquiry ofwhat is true and what is false?