The whole point being of course if your "Universe", and the means investigating it, is a fantasy just as well. If people wanna base their lives on a "Universe" fantasy while trying to get to know all infinite aspects of it, thereby forcing Nature into all kinds of unnatural postures its up to them just as much as it up to the people if they wanna life life based on a God fantasy and gaining knowledge of Nature as it is, with no nightmare dreams of omnipotency or eternal life, and children should be offered all views in growing up, because if not, your society is closed and unfree, and we see what chaos that has caused in the modern day and since science and technology were introduced in old Greece the world has become not a better place but a worse place, that just can't be denied, which makes me conclude that cience and "the Universe" is just one myth amongst many and Mill already told us that in the freemarket of ideas the exclusion of many in the favor of the One is bad.

In one sentence! So is it not upto the children to decide instead of us telling them what is fact? — Hillary

I suggest you read this back to yourself and rewrite it. I read it twice and gained little idea of the main point you are trying to make. The last sentence about children suggests you want to 'TELL THEM what is fact yet you insist earlier that "children should be offered all views in growing up, because if not, your society is closed and unfree.' Surely you see the contradiction.

Short & sweet lectures. Just the kind of education that fits in my schedule. — Agent Smith

:halo: You are being evasive Agent Smith but perhaps you want to maintain the mystery.
The questions remain! Why French phrases in particular, why so much Latin and why the odd inclusion of sometimes seemingly random maths symbols. I suspect it's probably just that you know a lot of French and Latin and possibly maths as well but its fun to ask for confirmation anyway. I also respect the individual need to maintain mystique. c'est la vie, vive la différence, Non est bonum.
∑ ∞ + ∞! = ∞

I cite TikTok! — Agent Smith

Ok, I'll bite, why Tik Tok?

Magnifique!

I wish it were all subjective.

3, w, m, ɛ — Agent Smith

I find your use of little bits of French, a fairly large amount of Latin and the odd bit of 'random code?'
intriguing. Random to me of course, I assume it has significant meaning once understood
or revealed. :smile:

Point made, point taken. The world is, I hope/suspect, big enough to accommodate our two divergent viewpoints — Agent Smith

:rofl: I had to go back to p8 of this thread to find out what we were discussing Agent Smith.
I assume this is your response to my response regarding 'playing possum.'
The fact that our viewpoints often diverge is a great relief for the Universe I think.
I was watching the boxset I have of Star Trek 'Enterprise,' last night and the medical doctor character called flox asked the Vulcan Tpol to remind him of that famous Vulcan maxim regarding diversity.
She said 'Infinite diversity in Infinite combinations.' I have always liked those words. I prefer to replace the word infinite with vast as I don't think infinite exists in reality.
So yes, I agree not only can the world accommodate our diverse/diverging viewpoints, it needs them as these are evidence of true individual consciousness. It's for others to decide what they most agree with and hence we can arrive at reasoned, debated, rational, majority decisions, before action is taken.
Yeah, I know it rarely works out that way! But as long as at least two humans remain in existence, we will forever try I suspect.

Actually you are right. I've been alone (without help) for two years. — Vincent

For a thinker, this is the same as two years of solitary confinement in prison.
If you are 'trapped,' then you need to make changes. Not necessarily big changes.
Small incremental changes. Just to gently nudge yourself towards a happier life.
Even volunteer work to help others can be very very rewarding.
letting your fears fester is exactly like an unattended pressure build-up.
It will explode.
Since I retired I have taken up many hobbies. I have no wife or children but I live a very fulfilled life.
You say you have a limited school-based education. What about studying a subject that interests you the most? Studying it from scratch, would that not be a way forward?

Religion could actually play a role here. I we teach the children nature is a divine gift, a divine creation, they think twice before engaging against it. Not with hell threatening but just because it is a gift. — Hillary

Nice try :naughty:
We need to show more respect to children. Nurture their imagination and their playful fantasies, yes, but never suggest such fantasies are fact!

Still... There are about 10 000 active nuclear warheads scattered over the world. Whatever MAD entails, the laws of chance are such that they will one day be employed. And I'm sure so-called patriots won't hesitate to use them. WTF do you and I or Vincent have to do with the power quarrels of a few — Hillary

Oh, we just have to accept labels such as 'unfortunate innocent bystander,' or 'victim' etc.
But we don't have to be as passive as the majority of the population are. If you can become more of an activist you should. That's what this current crisis is showing all of us.
If you ignore what's happening elsewhere and to others then it won't be so long until the boom boom knock on every door on the planet.
How close do we have to get before we learn? If we lean too far we will fall over the precipice.
And if that happens then in truth, none of us were innocent bystanders because we all let it happen.
The Russian people should be in complete revolution right now.

I'm just used to being called an idiot or a mental patient or something. — Vincent

We all need to communicate with each other more!
Many people feel lost, in the same way you probably do at times.
Perhaps a site like this one can help.
More people should start a thread about the philosophy of the human struggle for mental stability.
Mental struggles SHOULD NOT AND MUST NOT be a voodoo subject that we are all ashamed to talk about or be honest about. Most of the philosophers are painted as slightly mad.
I do believe that shared problems are reduced problems.
Threads like 'was Nietzche actually mad,' may let people discuss their own personal struggles.
Very few people are actual idiots they have just not received much help or care in their lives.

I am sure some folks felt the same way as you do now during the Cuban missile crisis.
Keep believing in the sanity of the human race not its capability to be a little or even a lot, insane.

I'm just trying to warn as many people as possible that the "end" is near. — Vincent

The internet version of the old sandwich board with 'the end is nigh,' painted on it. :roll:
Oh well, at least you, @Hillary and I can each wear some interesting hats and join Alice at the Tea party before the boom boom.

You should read my blog. I think there will be a leader emerging soon. This leader will stand up for the people and let the people decide. And will guide them to this freedom — Vincent

I did read most of it. You don't want my opinion on it as It would most likely offend you.
Your words are similar to those biblical words about a coming Messiah.
It's total BS in my opinion and seems so disjointed with the political viewpoints you have stated.
I don't mean to be mean to you but If I don't tell you what I really think of some of your viewpoints then I would be a fake!

We may have different opinions, but that doesn't mean we're 'enemies' or something. — Vincent

I agree.

I am convinced that WW3 can start any moment and we will then 'mutate' to transhuman etc — Vincent

Yeah it could, if all the Russians are happy to die over little Ukraine (no insult to Ukraine intended) and if that is the case then we all f****** deserve it. So don't let fear fester, remain hopeful that there are enough sane people around all the nefarious ones in power to prevent M.A.D.
Your last comment of "we will then 'mutate' to transhuman" does leave me with the feeling that you may well be slightly mad!!

So there will have to arise a leader who will lead us to a money-free world. — Vincent

No no more 'leaders'. We all need to cooperate. OF the people! BY the people and FOR the people.
Not the rule of the few over the majority. No leaders of any significant power. Power rests with the people. Layered representative elected groups with powerful checks and balances. No total government control over the military. No autocracies/plutocracies/aristocracies/cults of personality/cults of religion/cults of celebrity and yes no currencies.
Humanism all the way. No nurturing of profits only the nurture of people and the flora, fauna and ecology of the Earth.

You can also answer me in 'worldpeace' and join the discussion. — Vincent

Thanks for the invite but I have typed my fingers raw regarding my political beliefs.
I can only offer this forum repeats on things I have typed before regarding politics.
It's better if new voices like yours are aired, delivering a similar message.
I would prefer it without the rather bizarre connections you make with the god label etc but
as I said. The points you make maybe just 'fogged in translation.'
You suggest 'god' exists and then connect it with 'an advanced alien race,' and then you suggest we could become gods and then you say you hate gods and then......
I like and understand your politics as you describe them but I think your worldview and your view of impending doom and an almost instant phoenix style rebirth into a glorious transhuman future etc, is unlikely, to say the least.

universeness and me already have had the pleasure of meeting. We have a MAD relation! Without the D! — Hillary

If we had the same mother, she really would have been a terror!

"The Dark Solution" by Ninja Quark! — Hillary

I would buy it. :razz:

that guy Putin sounds like he actually wanna use nukes! — Hillary

I agree but do the ones around him wanna die too? and their families and everyone important to them.
That's what Mutually Assured Destruction entails but they could end up causing it by accident, because of their stupid brinksmanship. They play with fire and everyone gets burned. If we came into existence by accident maybe it's ironic that we may go out of existence by accident.
If we do avoid destruction via Putin's perilous petulance then perhaps we will all finally understand that autocracies cannot be allowed, ANYWHERE on the planet!

No my language is not english. (google translate) But I think I mean what I'm saying.
Pretend you believe in god. That's how I discovered it too. But to pretend you have to have a bit of a psychotic mind. Don't get it wrong. I'm not a psychopath or anything. But proving the existence of god is a complex matter and requires a separate way of thinking — Vincent

I was reading your entries in your own post titled worldpeace.
I very much agree with your political comments regarding 'no currency' and no ownership ( at least I would disallow private ownership of land). Global economic parity or at least a situation where no human alive has to struggle for their basic needs, their education or their medical care from cradle to grave is a very honorable and necessary goal for our species to have.
We just need the majority of the population of the planet to demand this from the tiny minority who are currently in control. If they won't comply then we WILL most likely have to make them or go extinct trying.

Pleased to meet you, hoped you guessed my name — Hillary

Remember this one:

Pretend you believe it and think further. — Vincent

Why would I pretend to believe something?
If I did that then I could hardly accuse anyone else of pretense!
I assume your first language is not English and this may be why I misunderstand some of your points.
Lost in translation is a common issue.

:naughty: Ninja quark!

Well, this is a philosophy forum, not a computer science one. I could talk about Bloch spheres but that wouldn't be very enlightening for the philosophical discussion — Hillary

Yeah, I think we have exchanged many times before! :naughty:

So I expect to live to about 200 — ArmChairPhilosopher

:smile: You lucky sod!

People stop fighting each other. We are on the eve of WW3. Instead of testing each other, wouldn't it be better to look for a solution? — Vincent

:rofl: Dont worry, WW3 remains highly unlikely due to M.A.D.
If a full or significant nuclear exchange happens then the resultant climate change will make us extinct so there will be no WW4. Life on Earth probably will survive but not human or transhuman life.

Then where came that spark from? — Hillary

I don't care, it has no significance, it's a mindless spark.

Ingenious! — Hillary

Well, you haven't set the bar very high so far have you?
I am not surprised you don't understand the term ingenious either.

Ray Kurzweil has an eerily accurate track record of technological predictions. His prediction for the first general intelligence is 2028, the first super intelligence around 2050 and the singularity around 2080. And I'm inclined to believe him as I was surprised by Watson and alpha GO — ArmChairPhilosopher

Well, I hope you are correct and I am wrong. Around 2080 eh, I am 57 so that would make me 115.
I hope you can survive till then. I am pretty sure, I'm f*****, but if I am still here and it's all happening as you suggest then I will nip back onto this thread to tell you YOU WERE CORRECT or I will just connect to you transhuman to transhuman and in a contrived Mr Spock voice, I will "confirm the accuracy of your prediction."

This was meant for Vincent... — Hillary

It's not my fault that you also have a bad aim to add to your dodgy intentions.

The rose bush starts making a flower bud (humanity was born) (the moment when all the misery started) — Vincent

You seem to have a low opinion of your own species. Were the dinosaurs a better species than us?
They didn't build cities and damage the climate and war with each other (well they did a bit...) as much as you claim we do. You ignore all of mankind's achievements.
Why did they go extinct? they were dominant on the Earth for a lot longer than we have been.

In the beginning there was nothing — Vincent

This is just not the case, the Earth formed from an accretion disc of natural materials, how is that nothing? You need to go back to just before the big bang if you want to even introduce the concept of nothing. Even then it may be pointless to do so as the theory of the multiverse, the oscillating
Universe/the Penrose bounce etc, etc can take us towards the eternal and even then we don't need
god. A small mindless spark to start the cycle and then wink out of existence forever would suffice.

You should have become a poet! — Hillary

and I don't even know it!

My take on what god means. Is a society of a planet that knows all the laws and all are connected with each other. God's purpose is to create an evolutionary planet like the Earth in order to fuse our society together until it can be considered as one. If we succeed in that, we are also a god. Just like our god. Then our god is no longer alone.
One day in billions of years, all planets and societies in our universe may be considered god. Then the game starts again. Then all the gods (societies) scattered throughout our universe will merge into a kind of super god. And it will go on like this until 'I don't know'.
I know how that sounds, but that's just my opinion — Vincent

If as you suggest, humans CAN achieve these goals you suggest then why do you need this other god reference or this continuation of gods.
I find that many theists in particular and many people, in general, cannot go through life without having some overall answer for the final fate of the human race and the Universe. They have to have a 'grounding,' an anchor a tether to the eternal. I think this comes purely from primal fear that we inherited from our time in the wilds. Thinking about infinity has driven many minds mad. I don't think we have to be so obsessed with the eternal. We just don't need the god label. It's regressive to me.
I prefer 'to boldly go where we have never gone before......,' let the useless god label die along with the BS biblical prophecies.

Bait people? What for? — Hillary

That's your reveal not mine.

Briefly. The technology is much too young to anticipate if it will become useful in the process of "uploading". — ArmChairPhilosopher

Yeah, it is still in its infancy.

Again, too early to say. I'm not even sure if silicone is the way to go — ArmChairPhilosopher

What do you mean by silicone? As currently used in electronic computing?
I have not heard of silicone mentioned much within biological computing.
I vaguely remember an article in New Scientist magazine a few years ago that talked about a merging between silicone-based electronic components and protein/DNA-based biological components but there wasn't much in it. Do you know of some other research I don't know about?

Technology and biology are at a race for life extension and adaptation to, for example, long space flight. Maybe neither will win and general AIs will take over such tasks were you want to have a conscious and intelligent entity.
My guess is that we will see advances in all those fields over the next decades. — ArmChairPhilosopher

Yeah but I think serious progress will take longer than a few decades. I base this just on the average human lifespan available now. We haven't achieved much beyond the old biblical claim for an average human lifespan as threescore and ten.

You do it again! Yes, of course I'm interested what response I get. Aren't you? — Hillary

Yes I am, but not based on attempts to bait people by stealth as I suspect you do.

This sounds suspicious.There is a definite theistic smell surrounding this statement. Is this an attempt to become like God, whose existence you secretly affirm here? God being the universe? — Hillary

No, my statement was a simple projection of panpsychism/cosmopsychism, I did not declare myself a panpsychist, cosmopsychist or theist. I am an atheist and supporter of physics not metaphysics.
I think that we need to focus on how super the natural is and stop the BS about the non-existent supernatural.

You wrote I did theistic role playing! And said I'm a troll because of that! Who started here? — Hillary

You did by typing the inane sentences I quoted from you.

I'm having trouble understanding you. — Vincent

That's ok I can try to explain myself beter.

When you use the label god, what abilities do you think a god must have? The omnis?
Do you think only one god can exist or many?
You typed about a super-intelligent advanced alien race, why would you use the label god for such a race merely because they can do stuff we cant do YET.

The new developments in biological computing, quantum computing, and CRISPR, offer a strong cocktail trio for extending life beyond humans and within humanity itself — Hillary

I agree.

It's my guess you had some bad experiences with religion. So your paranoia might just be a defend mechanism. Which is understandable — Hillary

No I havent had bad experiences with religion unless you identify their ridiculous posits as 'bad.' If you do then use that label if you wish. Your 'paranoia' accusation is toothless and baseless. You made the ridiculous typings I mentioned not me. You have demonstrated typical troll behaviour not me.
If it types like a troll, it's normally a troll.
We can continue to exchange on my suspicion of your intent if you insist but I dont think you will make any headway. Better if you just attempt to offer more honest and balanced dialogue regarding the OP. Rather than continue your current move towards 'methinks he/she doth protest too much!'

I just repeated your claim that it is me using theist tactics. Who says it's not you using theist tactics? Why you accused me of it? Where did I give you the impression I believe in God? — Hillary

You make a lot of 'inaccurate' jumps. I accused you of sophistry, of being disingenuous.
I ASKED you if you were a theist. Disgruntled theists often dress up in the clothing of sophistry.
Trolls roleplay, it's what they do to satisfy their own internal needs to be deceitful.
In reality, most of them are as easy to understand and see through, as Trump supporters.
I am responding to some of the ridiculous things you have typed so far such as:

You can say that! Let's hope the nukes are dropped! — Hillary

I envision a salvation army of nano-bots injected in our bloodstream — Hillary

the emotative areas involved in procreation — Hillary

Useless functions like involved in the arts — Hillary

people judgment and discrimination can be replaced — Hillary

These are either very fringe opinions based on a very skewed logic or you are just making stuff up to see what response you get.

As Vincent pointed out, when WW3 arrives this year, technology development will be accelerated and the quest for immortality and omniscience will be boosted — Hillary

Nonsense.

If we are simulations of a super intelligent alien civilization, they will probably have a reason for letting us get involved in a new world war — Hillary

Are you convinced you are a simulation?