Do you mean like necessary and sufficient conditions? I'm not asking for an exhaustive list but I would like to know what would be sufficient to make something necessary. — Average

I don't think anything about the universe is necessary. Necessity is just a condition. There is nothing necessary about life on planet earth. Just a chain of events.

Would that mean also that something is necessary if there is an available reason for it's existence? — Average

No, just a condition. There may be many conditions.

That does not engage with the argument I just presented. Focus! — Bartricks

Bye.

I think Artificial Intelligence is another stage in the evolution of the universe. Humans may be edged out by AI 'persons.'

In other words something is random if there is no available reason that explains it’s existence. — Average

Yes.

How can you make this assertion with such confidence? — Average

It did not always exist. Why did it not come into existence before or after it did?

Let us grant that the deliberate perpetuation of the falsehood was Trump's; still the belief of others cannot be based simply on that. The interesting question is as to why they take Trump at his word? What motivates their taking Trump at his word? — Janus

They wanted a violent overthrow of the government.

If there is no way of calculating these kinds of probabilities then there is no way of knowing whether or not these things were inevitable. — Average

Yes, our galaxy was not inevitable.

I'm not sure that I follow. Can you give me an example or elaborate a little more? — Average

You can say the universe started as Big Bang. There was nothing inevitable about our galaxy being formed, much less life on our planet. So, the state of the BigBang was fairly simple, a finite set of elements.

. it seems like there is some overlap with the notion of knowledge and ignorance or certainty and uncertainty. in other words the inevitable would be the predictable and the random would be the unpredictable. Is this a fair assessment of your ideas or am I failing to do them justice? — Average

A finite set of elements can still have randomness in it.

Would randomness just be the other side of that coin and therefore mean something like improbable? — Average

On this example, we know a person will die. When, by what cause, is not known--the randomness. Someone could have cancer and get hit by a car and die. Death is inevitable, but the random is still there.

That certainly would be wonderful. — Average

I am fine with a short life. But I get the idea. Some think death is an illness to be cured.

Would you also agree that inevitable and necessary are synonymous — Average

By inevitable I mean very likely to happen, a tendency. I am not denying the utility of the concept of necessity, but I think it is often misused. For example, in the future death may be overcome.

Change is inevitable, it's a constant in the universe. — punos

Agree.

Either way I have one more question is there anything in the universe that is inevitable? Inevitability and necessity seem like siblings or even identical twins. — Average

Death is inevitable. So, I suppose I would agree with that.

And thus free will is negated, because you can't choose to fly, just like you can't take short cuts by walking through walls, or any such thing. — punos

Not negated, conditioned.

If things are indeterminate are you able to determine your own choice?
If things are determinate are you able to determine your own choice? — punos

Not sure the logic here. I see nothing meaningful in questioning whether I have freedom to choose. I can't choose to fly off a mountain top, for example.

I don’t think that there is anything in the universe that is everywhere in the universe. If I’m correct wouldn’t that mean that everything is random and also that nothing is necessary? — Average

That is my view. I think it the view of quantum mechanics.

Wouldn’t it still be possible for life to be necessary but just under very unique and specific conditions? — Average

The universe does not make life necessary or it would be everywhere. Thus, random.

Only that your pride requires blood — Gregory

I have no idea what that means.

Tell me first if you are a determinist, an indeterminist, or both (like me). I think i can logically show it's impossible with any one you pick. I'm not sure that you can show that it is possible regardless of the one you pick. Which one is it? — punos

I find the dichotomy of free will/determinism to be false.

Does it unsettle you in any way to consider that free will might not exist. — punos

It does not matter to me one way or the other. I make my decisions without reference to free will or determinism.

What would need to be true or what would be necessary for something to be considered random? — Average

By random I mean the absence of necessity. So the first state of the Big Bang is there, but we see no necessity for it being so. Nor is life necessary since it exists no where else in the universe.

Like i've already stated in prior posts, my point is that in any case (determinism or indeterminism) the possibility (not the probability) of free will is absurd and illogical. — punos

How is free will illogical? You would have to show the concept is inconsistent with itself.

I don't think Newton and others invented determinism, — punos

Newton said God made physical laws.

Fair enough. I’d like to discuss the notion of randomness but if you’re not interested I completely understand. — Average

I brought it up.

Democrats murder the unborn directly while Republicans murder the world indirectly (global warming). It's ironic we have to choose between such alternatives — Gregory

Only if one lies about abortion being murder.

Correct me if I’m wrong but determinism doesn’t show that either are true. Both are possible but in reality neither are true unless you actually replicate the scenario in real life. Also couldn’t both of these hypothetical outcomes be consistent with the theory of self determination? — Average

Yes. The free will/determinism argument is pointless. I can say I have freedom, but my freedom is limited by many things. My point is that determinism in science is false. Randomness influences events.

If what you mean is that both cases fit into a deterministic model of the universe then I agree. — Average

Right. If determinism can show that a statement and its contradiction are both true, then it is useless as an explanation.

Would you argue that the theory of self determination or free will somehow explains something? — Average

Let us say I want to get a job at a particular company. I write up a resume and contact people there. Whether I get the job or not, both cases support determinism. I fail to see how the belief in determinism affects my actions.

Added: It is what the positivists called myth. Something for which both the statement and its negation makes true.

Thank you for replying but I must confess I still don’t understand what you mean by proof. — Average

Look at the other side. Everything is determined. What does it explain? Nothing really. Everyone's lives from birth to death are completely determined.

I don’t know what you would consider a proof. I’m happy to try to provide one but it would help me if I knew what criterion you use to determine what you will accept as a proof. — Average

Proof other than methodological consistency. The quantum model rejects determinism. That is, regularities in nature do not prove necessity.

He is saying that classical determinism is a social construction, rather than telling how nature ‘really’ operates. — Joshs

Newton and others invented the idea that nature is deterministic. They never proved it.

Someone who defended deterministic fatalism might argue that something like genetics, neurological factors such as dopamine, cultural or psychological considerations, and or any of the things that influence these elements of behavior could account for your actions. — Average

Possible, but proves nothing. Like saying, because you're tall (I am) you're likely to bump your head (I have).

Just because you are free to do something doesn’t mean that your life isn’t the product of forces that shape and mold your behavior in ways that you have no ability to oppose. — Average

Please explain. I chose to come on to the forum and see your post. What "forces" made me do that?

How can there be anything to discuss, then? You’re not saying anything, you’re just making marks that show up on a screen. I might interpret them to mean anything whatever, and you wouldn’t be able to correct that. You’re sawing off the branch on which you sit. — Wayfarer

Good point, well argued.

Do arguments for free will typically need a spiritual aspect? Like a mind i dependent of the physical world yet that can affect it? Or is it just enough to say we don't know enough about the quantum world or the larger universe and can't really confirm determinism either? — TiredThinker

I decided to change my shirt. Therefore I have free will.

Grow up. — Xtrix

I am all grown up.

but there are better things for me to do than passively consume the latest media spectacle — Xtrix

Clearly you support Trump's coup attempt.

Doesn't determinism imply that that exact end state of the universe needs to be a particular way and thus a particular trajectory is needed? — TiredThinker

Agree. Good point.