If the proposition "it is raining" does not exist then it is not raining — Michael

If it's not raining, the proposition "it is raining" exists. It's just false.

"A group experience takes place on a lower level of consciousness than the experience of an individual. This is due to the fact that, when many people gather together to share one common emotion, the total psyche emerging from the group is below the level of the individual psyche. If it is a very large group, the collective psyche will be inmore like the psyche of an animal, which is the reason why the ethical attitude of large organizations is always doubtful. The psychology of a large crowd inevitably sinks to the level of mob psychology. If, therefore, I have a so-called collective experience as a member of a group, it takes place on a lower level of consciousness than if I had the experience by myself alone."

--Jung

I see. That makes sense. If I say that truth only has a social function, then there are no unknowable truths, and I would be comfortable saying all truths are known. Fitch's target is trying to do more with truth. That's interesting, thanks.

No, it isn't. The actions of the coach were unprofessional. It should have stopped there. — Banno

It's not about professional behavior, it's about separation of church and state versus freedom of speech.

But, that's America. — Banno

Damn straight.

Shame the focus is on "indoctrination" - it should be on exclusion. — Banno

You, Tom Storm, and Streetlight all run together. It's a blur.

It seems to me that the court is saying that religious speech in classrooms must be (perhaps explicitly) coercive in order to be unconstitutional (see here). — Paulm12

Honestly I don't think it was coercive. An atheist can stand by respectfully while the Christians do their rituals. That's emotional maturity.

Or the coach can have some maturity and stop doing the prayer when asked.

I see what you're saying. It's a close call.

The question is whether or not Kennedy should legally be allowed to make himself look like an idiot (or crusader, depending on who you ask) on the field. — Paulm12

The main issue is that it's a public school. Religious indoctrination isn't allowed when state funds are in use.

I don't know. Same shit different day as far as i can see.

To hell with the kangaroos. — T Clark

We should probably protect the wildlife.

Thanks!

But Kant does allow truths that are unknowable: how things in themselves really are. Why is he on the list?

Like we are outside looking in, finding not meaning — Bylaw

That's the vantage point, yes.

I think Wikipedia is talking about truth anti-realism in the second case (not idealism). Deflationary accounts of truth are apt to be anti-realist, redundancy and so forth.
— Tate

OK, though from SEP again:

As such the proof does the interesting work in collapsing moderate anti-realism into naive idealism.
— Fitch’s Paradox of Knowability - SEP — Andrew M

I don't know what kind of anti-realism the SEP is talking about.

Do you?

Yes.

I wasn't objecting to Fitch there. Just giving an example of bewitchment of language leading to metaphysical conclusions.

We can escape Fitch by just saying we don't know if the status of Riemann's hypothesis is knowable.

The anti-realist Wikipedia mentioned would just say we're using figures of speech when we say that.

That may be, but it strikes me a virtuous life would include loving and forgiving. — Ciceronianus

Why?

. I mentioned the Stoics refencing love. Both Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius thought highly of forgiveness, and recommended it as proper. — Ciceronianus

How could Jesus learn something from Marcus Aurelius?

Would you have examples of these unwarranted projects? — Olivier5

If truth is a property of statements, talk of "unknown truths" might give us unstated statements. Not good.

Is that true, though? — Olivier5

Of course. I think you're misunderstanding. A deflationist does not have a problem with using the word "true" in the normal way. She just resists piling unwarranted projects on top of that normal usage.

She would say we shouldn't be bewitched by
language.

Even folks who think they have 'deflated truth' do in actual fact believe that it is true that they have deflated truth — Olivier5

Right. They just don't believe that "is true" adds anything except emphasis.

Not according to many here. — Michael

A typical deflationist will say that truth only serves a social function. Is someone disagreeing with that?

More seriously, presumably people who have considered Fitch's paradox do accept that. But from Wikipedia:

The paradox is of concern for verificationist or anti-realist accounts of truth, for which the knowability thesis is very plausible,[1 — Andrew M

I see. If I'm a verificationist, then I can be accused of saying that the human race knows all (not that any individual does.) But since I haven't ruled out the expansion of human knowledge, I should show up as reasonable.

I think Wikipedia is talking about truth anti-realism in the second case (not idealism). Deflationary accounts of truth are apt to be anti-realist, redundancy and so forth.

:razz:

The only way to avoid such unknowable truths is for there to be no unknown truths (i.e., for all truths to be known). That is, for all for truths to be knowable implies that all truths be known. — Andrew M

Why not just accept unknowable truths?

Would he just admit that he hadn't thought of the ways science has uncovered his noumena?
— Banno

No he wouldn’t, because science hasn’t, nor will any science done by humans, ever have the means for it.

Nahhhh.....crotchety ol’ Prussian would more likely be pissed at being intellectually bushwhacked.

Tasty bait. Thanks. — Mww

It wasn't very filling, though, was it?

Virtually unknown today, but, quite persuasive, IMO. — Manuel

Interesting, thanks.

As mentioned by ↪Benkei, the decision wasn't based on human rights treaties, natural rights theories (+ bodily integrity), bioethics, and nor on general public opinion. — jorndoe

It wasn't supposed to be. They're charged with ruling based on the constitution.

But the pagan philosophers taught the desirability of virtue, and to the extent Jesus did so he had many predecessors — Ciceronianus

He didn't talk much about virtue. His focus was on love and forgiveness.

Sure. But the plucking can happen by something "external", say, seeing a stone, or a hallucination of a stone.

The actual object need not be in the world, for us to react to it the way we do. — Manuel

What is this kind of idealism called?

But the principle of perception is better explained by a Cartesian framework: what matters is what the subject reacts to, now what's happening in the so called external world — Manuel

Descartes thought the world plucks the little strings that are attached to the brain (nerves, discovered by dissection of cadavers).

Wouldn't he say we're reacting to the plucking?

You're just craft snobs
— Tate

Whether or not that's true, I think we are getting at in important issue here. — T Clark

That was meant light heartedly. Where's the light hearted emoji?

Are you so preoccupied with the idea of the pointlessness of existence that you need to distract yourself? — Alkis Piskas

No, I'm good.

If existence is pointless then why not create one's own meaning to the fullest possible extent? — Moses

That's ok. It's still all vanity.

Don't expect meaning, but go for beauty. — unenlightened

I was thinking about that. Life as a kind of art. Mine hasn't been too graceful lately, but it's authentic. All the world's a stage.

I didn’t say anything about craft, did I? — praxis

On second look, no.

You're just craft snobs

Exxon says every new passenger car sold in 2040 will be electric .

This doesn't exactly address climate change because it just means a heavier load on the grid.

I does centralize the CO² output, though. That means when the grid is powered by fusion, say, cars will also be powered with it.

It seemed to me that underlying Trump’s attempts to befriend Putin was an idea of bringing countries dominated by white people together. — ArielAssante

I think you're over estimating Trump's interest in anything beyond his own glory. He noted that Putin gave assistance to his campaign and thought that meant Putin liked him.

You have no choice

:gasp:

Never look at yourself, huh. — baker

I'm not there.

Consent IS facing. With as full attention as possible, it is allowing into awareness without dispute. If right/wrong enters, the moment is lost. — ArielAssante

I see what you mean

Externally, if your house is on fire, get out as quickly as possible, then call the fire department. — ArielAssante

Right.