I have no doubt that a persistent 'illusion of knowledge' (faith) projects an 'illusion of control' (optimism, hope) – in other words, the fetish of suspended disbelief exacerbates self-serving make believe. — 180 Proof

I know what being deeply entrenched in pessimism means, so there's no shock value here (not that you meant that). I don't ail so as to need hope as a salve. For all practical purposes, I'm the rich man who, like Nietzsche, can revile pity because it only sustains the superfluous.

Just for a second, stop trying to teach and try something on. It starts with just letting go of pessimism for a second and realizing that you don't know. What comes into view are possibilities. Some of the possibilities for our species rock. Do you know what I mean?

No it's just reasonable. Unless you want to spend all your time double checking what materials are in your clothes or what exactly is going into your body. Do you double check all your nutrition labels? It's just faith. Our mental resources are limited. It would be insane to check everything. — Moses

You mean in order to live, you need faith?

Why would there be a relation? — Jackson

Hopeless people tend to be misanthropic. Belief in God supports faith in people. It did for MLK Jr anyway.

but it would be virtually impossible for me to fact check everything. I take it on faith. — Moses

Is this an unthinking faith? Is that what you mean?

I think you'll find that ostentatious optimism is pretty strong amongst members of cults and religions, but quite possibly if you scratch under the surface the doubts will become visible. — Tom Storm

I'm not sure what your point is here. How would you define philosophical optimism?

don't use the word 'faith' as it is too drenched in religious baggage — Tom Storm

I get that. I dont have that particular allergy. If I can learn something from religion, I won't let that sort of thing stand in my way.

It's a kind of faith, I think. Faith in myself, that I can learn anything I want without falling into a pit of superstition in the process.

But one of the things this thread immediately has me wondering about is the relationship between pessimism and atheism.

dont think they do. Hope and optimism were part of 1, not 2 but you posted as though you thought hope and optimism were in 2 as well. So how did you get there? — DingoJones

You may be right. As I said, I'm exploring hope and optimism. The Judeo-Christian tradition just happens to be centered around oppression and overcoming, so it's worthwhile to look in that direction. My goal is to draw it out into my world, though.

So you want to discuss definition 1? How would that relate to faith as it appears in judeo christian tradition which is actually part of definition 2? — DingoJones

How do you think they relate?

Pope Francis has made a number of comments about faith. This one refers to an episode in Luke where a sick woman reaches out to touch Jesus's garment and is healed. Jesus turns to her and says "Go in peace. Your faith has healed you."

The basic idea is that you don't need hope unless you're afflicted in some way. Rich, happy people don't need faith. It's ailing people who will reach out with hope to be healed. Faith is simply the irrational belief that healing is possible.

So, for instance, if we apply this to global warming, the sickling is the person who wants change. To reach out with hope takes the faith that things can change.

There's no enforcement of any of that, though.
— Tate

Not on victors, you are right, but there is often some enforcement on losers, as was the case in Nuremberg — Olivier5

I just think of law as something everyone is subject to. There's no enforcing body in that sense.

There is the UN Charter, as well as various treaties and conventions, eg the Geneva conventions. — Olivier5

There's no enforcement of any of that, though. We could say Russia broke an agreement, but would you say they acted illegally?

It strains credulity to argue Russia’s actions are legitimate. — Xtrix

I don't think there is any law at that level of action. That would require a global government.

Cheers — Banno

Hasta luego.

Kenny is setting out useful distinctions between belief and faith. Your denying them does not make them disappear — Banno

You recognized yourself that he's commenting on the behavior of a few.

Your conclusion that this few, which we identified as "true believers" are the only ones equipped with faith leads to the absurd picture of people whose worldview hasn't changed in 2000 years.

I ask you to stop being bullheaded.

Those who changed their mind as to god's residence had a belief that he was in the sky, but not faith in his being in the sky. — Banno

Begging the question.

So is your argument that the faith of someone post-Galileo is different in kind to the faith of someone pre- Galileo? That in effect someone learning and accepting, say, the heliocentric world, gives up on one set of beliefs about god and adopts another? — Banno

Learning that the sky isn't a rigid dome changed ideas about God, yes. People who had faith that God resides in the sky changed their views based on the evidence.

so, I'd just point out that folk also rejected the heliocentric model because they supposed that it was in conflict with their faith. These are Kenny's true believers — Banno

If these are Kenny's true believers, they are only a subset of people with faith. Therefore he doesn't set out a definition of faith, but rather comments on behaviors associated with certain "true believers."

Those who changed their beliefs simple had insufficient faith. — Banno

No. They had faith. Faith does not mean you reject evidence. That's called being bull-headed.

So you have moved on from claiming i misunderstood Kenny to claiming that Kenny is wrong. — Banno

He is wrong. I explained why.

It is true that faith brooks no argument, not in the sense that the faithful are unwilling to offer responses to criticisms, but that no argument will make a true believer give up his faith, and this is something he is resolved on in advance of hearing any argument — Kenny

This paragraph is wrong. As conceptions of the earth and sky changed, conceptions of divinity changed. If Kenny were right, this couldn't have happened, and it clearly did.

"Faith, then, resembles knowledge in being irrevocable, but differs from it in being a commitment in the absence of adequate evidence" Faith is unwarranted belief. — Banno

You pointed to this to show that Kenny believes that faith overpowers negative evidence.

This quote obviously doesn't say that. It is therefore your interpretation that's wrong, not Kenny.

It's worthwhile to understand faith since it's an aspect of human creativity and potential. I encourage you to look again.

If you wish to discuss Kenny, have a read and get back to me. — Banno

I don't. I gave you a heads up that you misunderstood it, the portion you quoted, that is.

My point is that being "open to not fully knowing" is a precarious position to be in, a liability that those who are still relatively healthy and wealthy can afford, but the rest can't. — baker

If you have small children, that's definitely true.

I live near one of the recent mass shootings we enjoy here in the great US of A. It's funny how stuff you never imagined or dreamed has a way of intruding on your life. — Real Gone Cat

How do you know you didn't dream it?

Unfortunately, I think I got one of those defective minds - try as I might, I can't will myself to win the lottery — Real Gone Cat

Can't do that in dreams either. You're fully capable of constructing a world and inhabiting it, following it's rules as you go.

That's what games are, fiction, dreams, possibly real life as well.

And what good does it do them? — baker

Probably about as much good as it does everyone else.

"Putin, speaking with students on Thursday after visiting an exhibition about Peter the Great, Russia's first emperor credited with making the country a major power in the early 18th century, compared himself to the ruler and said they were both destined to expand Russia."
Insider

All judicial systems fail sometimes. This is a case study in a UK failure:

It occurs to me, listening to the pre-broadcast commentary, that a very sizeable minority, and possibly even a majority, of Americans, really do believe that Donald Trump is above the law. — Wayfarer

In practice, the president ends up being above the law, especially if he's very influential like Trump. Does Trump's failure to be impeached reflect a diminished commitment to democracy? Definitely. I don't know where that's headed.

Post presidency, they just can't find a crime to stick on him. That had nothing to do with democracy.

Have you ever tried to be "open to not fully knowing" when you're in a precarious situation with either your health or socioeconomically, or even both at the same time? — baker

Even poverty stricken homeless people philosophise.

"Germany doesn't want to be 'too successful' at replacing Russian natural gas because it wants to move away from the fuel in the long run, economy minister said"Yahoo

Yay!

Faith can be distinguished from certainty in that faith is that sub-class of certainty such that no evidence to the contrary will be sufficient to dissuade the believer. — Banno

Is this how you are interpreting the above quote from Kenny? Or did he go into this issue of evidence to the contrary later in the speech?

Faith is definitely unwarranted belief. It has this in common with many ordinary beliefs. The element of will is the distinction.

Faith is not belief in the face of evidence to the contrary. No one has ever used the word that way as far as I know.

Then make your argument — Banno

Argument as in: explain what Augustine and Kierkegaard meant by faith?

you could be bothered doing so — Banno

I've read both Augustine and Kierkegaard. No need to be testy.

Don't think so. Don't much care, either, unless you can cite some reliable sources or present more than your own opine. — Banno

If you could present the part of Kenny's speech that produced your impression we discuss that.

If you're at all familiar with Kierkegaard, you'd already know that's not how he used the idea of faith.

It's a commonplace. Same as used by Kierkegaard. The faith of Abraham when he bound Isaac. — Banno

It really isn't a commonplace that faith is belief in spite of evidence to the contrary. You've misunderstood.

Kenny?

One has faith in a statement when one believes it regardless of the evidence. — Banno

Where did you get this definition of faith? It's in conflict with every usage of the term I've ever heard.

Well, that's the wrong question, right? And scientific (explanatory), not philosophical (descriptive, interpretive)? — 180 Proof

That's the hard problem.

I've been immersed in Bloch's philosophy of hope lately, so I come at it from a different direction. I think the realistic attitude is say that we don't know if we can figure it out or not, but we can certainly imagine succeeding. Science fiction frequently depicts technology that allows one to know what another being has experienced. So maybe. :grin: