I don't think so. There have been periods, in various places, when not much changed for several generations - or even a couple of centuries.Does every generation finally get to the point where they don't recognize the world anymore? — frank
Which are the exception?t is true that religion does involve belief in the supernatural in most instances, but not always — Jack Cummins
Miracle means something not brought about by natural means: magic.I do see there being more than just superstition in miracles. — Jack Cummins
Okay. Catholic sides can be very persuasive. Certainly, there are events we don't anticipate and can't explain. But as science advances, the window on miracles is closing.It may be my Catholic side coming out but I do think that there may be more to miracles than many would admit. — Jack Cummins
I am sure that there is an overlap between magic and religion — Jack Cummins
Beautiful describes the scene itself. If a very good artist painted it, everyone who saw it would probably think 'beautiful'. But the more profound part is what the beholder adds, in that moment, in his present frame of mind. Why the same scene affects each beholder differently is the subjective component."Beautiful.", was the first word that came to my mind then. However, what I had felt and seen seemed much more profound than just one word, which I would say only captured/described but a fraction of this moment. — Prometheus2
i don't understand 'religion emerged after magic'. Emerged from what? What kind of magic precedes it and how is that magic distinct from religion?With the history of religion, which emerged after magic, there were ideas of coercion and sacrifice. — Jack Cummins
The sacrifice and resurrection of a young, virile god or semi-divine entity in order to benefit humanity appears in many early agrarian civilizations. it represents the cycle of seasons; death in winter, rebirth in spring.Even in Christianity, Jesus represents 'the sacrificial lamb', to atone for human 'sin'. — Jack Cummins
there's no guarantee those power structures will endure.There may be small steps but if it is likely to be thwarted by hierarchies of power, which represent the interests of the elite. — Jack Cummins
Power imposes belief. at least on the lower orders. the priestly class tells everyone else their gods' demands, and the faithful obey. the system is enforced through a system of bribes, threats and bonding rituals - which, again, include alternate sacrifices and celebrations.The dynamics between power and belief are complex and interact. Ideas of gods and God may be used to protect power structures and, similarly, analysis of such beliefs may influence the nature of social systems. — Jack Cummins
The idea of 'God' or 'divinity' encompasses the issue of inner and outer 'reality', subjectivity and objectivity. — Jack Cummins
The human condition in a square bracket. We have caused most of our own misery - not entirely unknowingly, because there was always at least one 'enemy of the people' who warned us and was overruled for all the wrong reasons.On the other hand, what makes so many of us believe that collective humanity should be able to enjoy the pleasures of free will, but cry out for and expect divine mercy and rescue when our free will ruins our figurative good day — i.e. that we should have our cake and eat it, too? — FrankGSterleJr
The whole point of institutional religion.Those who have almost nothing are usually thankful for the little they have.
Those who have almost everything usually think they deserve better. — unenlightened
We learn by what we see, hear, experience, do, and read, and then our brains, with its hypersocial focus and filters, ascribe mental states to that which is not us – and believe in them. — Questioner
Who says it has to be unconditional?Why to be ever unconditionally kind? — Atrox
The normal thinking is: If you help others when they need it, they'll be motivated to help you when you need it. If it's all business, when your business fails, you're up shit creek, alone.Why to be kind even? — Atrox
The general understanding is that when you have a reputation for telling the truth, people trust you. In order to get such a reputation, you have to tell the truth most of the time. If you get a reputation for dishonestly, people won't want to do business with you, and if you consider all of life business, you're up shit creek. Alone.Also the same with honesty, why is it considered such a strong thing I do not understand. — Atrox
What, then, is the requirement?I reject the idea that they can do so without first having encountered other sentient beings, learned something about them, and how to read the outward signs. — Vera Mont
I'm sure that this can be part of the process, but it is not required. — Questioner
Every person of faith has formed a theory of mind about what is in the mind of their God. — Questioner
I want to know his story. — Amity
There was a time when the very word 'religion' would have me turn away. My Christian faith had vanished and I despised anything to do with it. I would not have been attracted to Dali's religious paintings. Fortunately, things change. — Amity
To deny that humans make conclusions about what is in other minds is blind indeed. — Questioner
I could have sworn you did.Who said it does not require experience and sensory input? — Questioner
Reading inward signs is telepathy. To form a guess, conjecture, theory or belief about what's in another mind, we first need to learn about something about the species and individual with whom who are faced. Infants respond to physical stimuli, but have no notions of the existence of minds or thoughts - and won't until they've interacted with others and learned to recognize patterns in their behaviour, from which they can deduce stimulus and response, cause and effect, similarity to their own feelings, etc. It's a long process of learning and associations before anything like a theory can form.it's not about reading outward signs — Questioner
From what? Words I typed are unequivocal outward signs.Right now, I have a theory of what is in your mind. — Questioner
it is about forming theories about what is in anther mind. — Questioner
The one that gets the closest to the truth? — Questioner
How is that determined? — Patterner
I have a couple of books, since about 1970. Anecdote; the second year I was working, I saw a pair of minor Dali prints in a Toronto gallery. #175 of the run, they were little things, about 10"x7" and came as a set for $200. That was two thirds of my monthly pay after deductions. I could have swung it, with some economies in my not-so-lavish lifestyle. But I lived in a small rented room with hardly any wall space and zero security. But I loved them! But... Common sense won. The damn things would be worth about $4000 today.Do you have a few Dalis hanging in your kitchen? — Amity
Shudder!Imagine floating in Dali's dreams... — Amity
All over the place. It's Called Christ of Saint John of the Cross.Do you have its title and I can search elsewhere? — Amity
Nothing about Dali was average. He turned things inside-out and merged them with other things.They are not the average paintings of Murillo or the ones that hung in the Vatican. — javi2541997
It's also floating in space. Here's a slightly more traditional one.For example -- the amazing crucifixion that you shared in your post. No blood, no image of Jesus Christ, the floor is mysterious, the cross looks like cement blocks, the crown of thorns is missing, and the famous nails are substituted for perfect cubes. — javi2541997
Oh, yeah. Christian, Jewish or Muslim, that's clearly stated in The Book.To hell with this story :rage:
And the rotten, worm-infested fruit it still brings forth...
The idea that Woman=Sin. The opposite of 'Good'. The religious importance of birthing a child.
How dare women even think of abortion...they are still seen as being 'owned' by males. — Amity
Ignorance, coupled with the threat of punishment, is obedience. That was the point. Also, Adam got off lightly, because he said: "The woman tricked me." He rules by Righteousness; she, in league with the Serpent, corrupts him with Guile.How dare people want to know more? Knowledge is Power. Ignorance is bliss?
Those exquisite crucifixions are worth checking out. Also several madonnas, a ghostly last supper and a lot of Christian symbolism. Catholic themes, as far as I recall, not the Old Testament.No, no. The Dali's apple is not Biblical, and I think he never painted something religious. The point was to be surrealist or even dreamy. — javi2541997
I did.This seems to put the OP in a box that isn’t needed though: why start with personal and social goods? Why not start with what it would mean for something to be good in the first place? — Bob Ross
Once these questions are answered, you can go on to which kind of good you want explore.What is the purpose of defining good? That is, Why do I need to make this distinction? To acknowledge that some things are good and some things are bad is to exercise judgment. Why do you want to exercise judgment? Why do other people? — Vera Mont
In some situations, yes, and that's exactly what some people do, and that is where it comes into direct conflict with the social good. Hence the need to distinguish the one from the other.So it is good, then, for me to kill an innocent person to ensure my survival? That would be a “personal good”? — Bob Ross
That, too, is the chosen path of many people.So it is good, then, for me to avoid my duties to my children because it makes me happier? — Bob Ross
Most societies, at some level, think so - and do.So it is good for society, then, to torture one person in order to ensure its own survival? — Bob Ross
According to a particular set of values.These definitions don’t accurately reflect what either an individual nor social good would be. — Bob Ross
Good is always relative to something. — Vera Mont
It has various definitions which are already set by customary usage. — bert1
And this is important to you. Why?We do, however, have some and those help avoid some anthropomorphism. — creativesoul
What does this mean? Malevolution? Man shooting the wrong species?They also allow one to recognize some mistakes 'in the wild'. — creativesoul
Yes, I can see that. I can also substitute 'prejudices' for 'standards'.That [non-discrimination of thoughts by subject matter]'s unacceptable by my standards. — creativesoul
What question should I make? — Matias Isoo
I don't discriminate between 'sorts' of thinking.By what standard/criterion do you judge which sorts of human thinking(rational or otherwise) non humans are capable of? — creativesoul
That's been known to produce variably reliable results.We imagine them. — Questioner
That's equally true of your theories.That's why. — creativesoul
Of course. How else do we draw conclusions about anything? We don't get inward signs of other individuals.We can make conclusions about emotion and health just by observing outward signs. — Questioner
So what? A thought is rational or irrational. And action the result of thought or of emotion.Not all rational thought is the same — creativesoul
Yes, yes, several people have already established human specialness about two dozen times in this thread alone, and I have not disputed it once. I just don't see how it could invalidate the capability of other species for rational thought.Some rational thought can only be formed by virtue of naming and descriptive practices. That is one crucial difference between our language and non human animals' languages. It is the difference between being able to think about one's own thought and not. Only humans can do this. — creativesoul
Oh I appreciate the distinction you keep making. Sounds much like Descartes': They don't speak [in human words] and they don't philosophize. Granted on both counts. I just don't consider it relevant to the topic.There's much more nuance within my position than you've recognized. — creativesoul
Than what was the purpose ofyou have invalidated observations made on scientific principles for the choice of words not being objective enough. — Vera Mont
That's not true. — creativesoul
That's our theory of mind at work. Why is it a problem, if you're not fussy about objectivity.What seems to be of philosophical importance, from my vantage point anyway, is how the narrators and/or authors report on the minds of the subjects. There is always a notion of "mind" at work. — creativesoul
Neither does the Ford assembly line. The point is still to find areas of human specialness. You already have that. Why belabour it?None of them require a creature capable of metacognition. — creativesoul
Humans have a lot of beliefs that no other species has, and we wouldn't without language. That seems like a significant difference to me. — Patterner
This is the direction this discussion needs to take. — creativesoul
It's been taken in that direction ten times over. By all means, pursue it again.This is the direction this discussion needs to take. — creativesoul
Theory of mind originated with gorillas? Without language? OK - I did not know that 'theory' could be applied to an inarticulate process like watching and interpreting the physical actions of another sentient being. Though I do suspect emotional empathy is older and less dependent on the socialization of young.The origins of both theory of mind and empathy go back about 5-6 million years ago. — Questioner
I don't see how two individuals - other than predator and prey - can interact without interpreting states of mind - or at least states of emotion and health.Interacting is not the same as interpreting mental states. — Questioner
And yet, you have not elaborated the scientific method whereby it can be objectively measured and verified. — Vera Mont
But you have invalidated observations made on scientific principles for the choice of words not being objective enough.Nor have I claimed that. — creativesoul
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of how much reliable factual information philosophy has contributed to human knowledge over the last two millennia.I have elaborated on the philosophical enquiry/method I've used to discriminate between language less thought and thoughts that are existentially dependent on language and/or each other - as many of our own thoughts are. — creativesoul
How did sorts of thought become the central issue? A logical solution to even one single problem, such as getting a grub out of a hollow tree or escaping from a fenced yard demonstrates rational thought. Adding layers of complexity, all the way up to wondering why the universe exists, doesn't change the fundamental nature of reason itself; it merely obfuscates the issue by shifting focus from the process to the subject matter.Our differences seem to be about which sorts of thoughts other species are capable of and which ones they are not. Although, there is some agreement there as well. — creativesoul
And yet, you have not elaborated the scientific method whereby it can be objectively measured and verified.That's not true. — creativesoul
Whose narrative isn't based on their own notion of mind?It's not that the word troubles me. It's that the report of the language less creatures' thought(s) is based largely - if not exclusively - on the reporter's notion of mind. — creativesoul
There is no method to discriminate between what human language less creatures are capable of thinking and what we are. Quite apart from the fact that one species - undisputedly - having more fanciful and abstruse thoughts than others doesn't negate rationality in others. And the secondary fact that the majority of humans also don't give very much of their day to contemplating metaphisics, the nature of thought about thinking, or 'the hard question of consciousness'.There is no other method to discriminate between what language less creatures are capable of thinking and what we are. — creativesoul
No kidding! What's the point of a brain, if it's not to generate a mind? But if the word troubles you, turn off the sound and watch the action.There is always a notion of "mind" at work. — creativesoul
Why is that so important to you, and by what method - other than philosophizing - do you propose to discriminate? Aside from the fact that you arbitrarily consign all communication, among any species, that doesn't have human grammar and vocabulary as language-less. Makes pre-verbal babies sound mindless, and completely dismisses the human vocabulary a great many human-associated animals are capable of learning. (Some humans are also capable of learning some non-human vocabulary.)The difficulty is in discriminating between which sorts of thoughts are existentially dependent upon language use and which ones are not. — creativesoul
I thought the question was whether other species are capable of rational thought. The language boondoggle was introduced later.What language less creatures are capable of believing and thinking is precisely what's in question here. — creativesoul
And I say it doesn't. I say empathy predates theory of mind by many millennia.I said empathy is one trait that depends on theory of mind. — Questioner
We're also very big on wishful thinking."Homo sapiens" translates to "wise man"
Yes. But how is that empathy?You use your theory of mind every time you make an inference about the mental state of another – like reading a mind. Sometimes, these inferences are correct, and sometimes they are not. — Questioner
It doesn't have to be dramatic; people also yawn when they see others doing it; a giggle fit can engulf the entire table. Mirror neurons firing at random. Still not empathy.It doesn’t have to be that dramatic. Smiles are contagious. — Questioner
Whatever. Gods have been used as stop-gap explanations for lots of things we didn't know, and are still used as a explanation for misfortune, the weather, altruism and the supremacy of man over all of creation. But their main function is to replace the all-powerful father figure from childhood.Why humans exist? Or the entire universe? — Questioner
By projecting there whatever is in the mind of whichever kind of man invented that god.And when we make up an explanation for existence that involves a supernatural being with specific characteristics – whether we imagine he is a loving god, or a vengeful god, or whatever – we are using our theory of mind to infer what is in the mind of that god. — Questioner
And that is why humans can lie so much more elaborately and sustainably (sometimes an entire lifetime, sometimes even to themselves) than any other species, and more convincingly to one another than to any other species.Yes, if the signals sent are false, then your inference about what is in the mind of another will most likely also be false. — Questioner
Being able to read thoughts and feelings are very different attributes. Humans discern the thoughts of other humans through choice of words, tone of voice, body language, facial expression and the little 'tells' when we're bluffing or lying. This is relatively easy to do between persons from the same culture and social background, much more difficult between people of different ethnicity or nationality or class or even sex in most cases. We can read the thoughts and feelings of a fictional character from the speech and manner of an actor, while the actor himself thinks and feels quite differently.But the “theory of mind” (and the empathy related to it) I described allows a human to understand what another is thinking and feeling — Questioner
Sneaking in the requirement to "fully understand" makes it exclusively human.... As if humans all fully understood their own emotions, let alone one another's.Rather than empathy, what a dog is experiencing when he responds to your grief is emotional contagion, which is a response to emotions without fully understanding what the other individual is feeling. — Questioner
Like human mobs at a lynching or cattle in a stampede? No, that's not very much like empathy.Emotional contagion — Questioner
It's one explanation. And gods are one explanation for why humans exist. We're good at making up explanations, either from fact or fantasy; other animals are not. That's another distinction to add to the list.Theory of Mind is not a set of proposals to explain the characteristics specific to any one religion, but rather an explanation for why religion exists at all. — Questioner