Economic crises in countries such as Cuba and Venezuela hint to communism's failure, — Down The Rabbit Hole

Not so much, if you consider the amount of outside interference to make sure they failed.
https://www.cfr.org/timeline/us-cuba-relations
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/14263/

Success and failure can be fairly judged if the attempt is given a chance. The inability to defend against aggression,sabotage and corruption is not the failure of the idea; merely weakness on the part of those implementing it. No historical example of a socialist or communist system that I know of was given a fair trial. Some of the prehistoric or extra-historic (undocumented by European conquerors) may have succeeded. The Huguenots and Cathars were religious movements attempting some form of Christian communism and were persecuted to death by the Catholic church.
Capitalists yell a lot about competition but will stop at nothing to achieve monopoly. (Worst board game ever invented. Not very good as a social system, either.)

But there’s nothing to act on there, — 0 thru 9

Only, you've already said what the action needs to be: connect up all the nodes. We're half-way there with the interweb; stick Universeness' AI in the center, acting as a global thalamus or relay junction, and you've got a fully functioning species-brain. I should imagine, as we, individual humans, are mostly harmless, because we can suppress our destructive impulses, the body sapient will be able to halt its destructive members.

It sounds good as a fable... Still, I have some reservations and quibbles, not the least of which is crediting civilization with something akin to volition and the ability to plan. I think it's more like a huge, mindless, parasitic fungus that is driven to replicate and grow, unaware of destroying its host. If it started evolving little brain-nodes that eventually connect up to a neural network, it could be controlled and directed by intelligence.

We just watched - again - the STNG episode where the archeologist Galen discovered that all the humanoid life-forms in our galaxy are related, having been seeded by a long-extinct advanced culture.
It may be a lame attempt at explaining away the makeup artists' lack of imagination, but still...
The last two lines were
"Maybe one day..."
"Yes. One day."
What do you say we make that our secret password?

If you are against us… prepare to be destroyed. :death:
(An odd conformist kind of individuality). — 0 thru 9

That's the most bizarre thing about this system. The Republicans, who yell loudest about Freeedooom!!! always line up in formation behind their candidate, however odious - at least since Reagan-Norquist because all the moderate or reasoning or dissonant ones have been ousted. The Democrats are at constant odds, as there are always young firebrands sprouting up among the old plodders. The second most bizarre aspect of American politics is that you always know what *nefarious* scheme the Republicans are hatching, because they accuse the Democrats of doing, having done or intending to do that very thing.

* * I hope universeness hasn't copyrighted it yet.

I said it was interesting. — praxis

It held my interest for a full minute, because I wondered how the computer got the idea of a collage. It's pretty.

And if you emphasize addressing the hard-problem of consciousness — finarfin

I didn't bring that up; you did.

absolutely nothing but the ability to perceive and think. — finarfin

You can't experience nothing. Which is probably why, in a coma, people don't experience or remember anything. That's because they are unconscious. See?

Sure, why not?

Democracy without socialism is kind of the status quo in the USA. — 0 thru 9

There is no functional democracy in the United States. A representative and relatively uncorrupted democracy tends toward socialism, simply by the power of numbers: given the chance, most people want and would vote for what's good for them, until you end up with a government that acts in the interests of most people most of the time. This is why, in America, you get this sort of thing a tour de force in misdirection.

Too Much Democracy Is Killing Democracy

And of course, socialism cannot exist in a non-democratic society, regardless of the label it sticks on its facade. That's why so many autocratic regimes go through the charade of elections.

That way, we could see who people really want, not who they are afraid of not voting for because they are the lesser of two evils… or something.

Is this idea crazy? Even possible?

It's a very modest proposition in the circumstances. And I doubt it's possible in the circumstances. No reform seems to be possible - until Premier Dumph abolishes the present form of government and stick all his detractors' heads on the spikes of the White House fence.

:up: Is that the best icon we can muster for "Right on, Brother!"

Whether it is possible is beside the point, so long as it's not logically inconsistent. — finarfin

Logically inconsistent with what? You have this uncaused, unembodied, dimensionless consciousness counting nothing and philosophizing about nothing. In nothing, there is literally nothing to perceive, chronologize or think about. The idea is wholly self-contradictory.

There are probably some things he could conjure a priori, mainly math, some philosophy. Either way, the hypothetical helps us better understand the concept of time. — finarfin

Before we can do that, please explain how any of those hypothetical events could take place in a universe full of nothing.

I am concerned that socialism may require government control and that disempowers individuals. — Athena

Which individuals are most empowered by lack of government control?

so time to that effect only makes sense in terms of past, present future which make time appear more concrete in terms of its existence — simplyG

Past present and future as experienced by a sentient being. That category of 'thing', however, depends on pre-existing material substance.

If however, in a purely hypothetical world where only consciousness existed without dimensions to speak of, then time would be a but comparison of different states of consciousness which are events or thoughts in themselves and in terms of linearity of their occurrence. This is of course hard to imagine. — simplyG

And not particularly useful. God's pre-creation consciousness - which consists of nothing, self-generates thoughts about nothing without any energy and puts those thoughts into a sequence of before and after, even though all of them are entirely devoid of content. How many thoughts can it have about nothing and how could it tell in which order those nothing thoughts occurred?

Time doesn't exist now, when there are many things. Material objects exist. Time is a concept, a measurement of change in things. Where there is nothing, there are no concepts and no changes.

I suggested he retire too, but he felt he should continue to feed his kids. — T Clark

I'm glad we adopted ours when we were in our thirties, not our sixties.

Substitute "convey something" for communicate. If the original message is lost in transit and is replaced by something equally valued, there has still been a connection. I don't interrogate Van Gogh every time my spirits are lifted by sunflowers; I don't take Yeats to task each time I read a poem. Something of them passes to me, by however indirect a route, that simply doesn't happen with computer generated art; those images never get past my eyeballs.

.... Ergo, what these same people, and many more will be doing, once they have no 7-3 and 5-midnight jobs to be on time for or get docked on their already meager pay, is helping people in their community, cleaning up the streets and parks, repairing the ex-tenements, visiting the disabled and lonely, organizing street parties and free-to-all sporting events, painting pictures they don't need to sell, restoring furniture they don't need to flip, learning new skills from one another and playing.
If only they don't get bombed, starved, burned or flooded out.

Where is the love? — 0 thru 9

It's out there!

Nearly 51% of the U.S. population age 16 and over, or 124.7 million people, informally helped their neighbors between September 2020 and 2021 at the height of the pandemic, according to the latest Volunteering and Civic Life in America research released today.
In response to a separate question, more than 23% of people in that age group, or 60.7 million, said they formally volunteered through an organization during the same period. ...
The research, released every two years, shows that those who formally volunteered gave more than 4.1 billion hours of service with an estimated economic value of $122.9 billion.

The economy would fall on its face without the people helping - that's beyond their own family obligations - without financial recompense.

One person viewing a pretty sunset is like :starstruck: — praxis

Two people viewing that same sunset is more like :starstruck: :starstruck: :hearts: Which is why my SO immediately calls me when he notices something remarkable or funny or beautiful.

So far, AI doesn't identify creative problems or possess the impulse to express itself. Nor does it explore, play, or innovate of its own accord. — praxis

When it makes art in its spare time, without a prompt, we'll be able to ask it why.

Forgive me for going off on a tangent, but this makes me think about political issues like the 32 hour work week and universal basic income. At what point are humans just along for the ride while machines do all the real stuff? Would that be a bad thing? I'm retired and I'm as happy as I've ever been. What would human life be like if we never had to work? — T Clark

That's a whole other issue. Since retirement, I have had time for creative endeavours that I only dreamed of while I had a family and a full time job. We might all be much happier, tinkering and inventing, exploring and foraging, painting and composing, volunteering and teaching, if it didn't have to be done either on top of a job or as a job.
But then, arts and sports should never have become jobs in the first place.

So, we both think our species will survive all of the threats it currently faces. — universeness

Just not in the same way that you envision. This time-line has to break before a new one can begin. The breakage itself will be.... unpleasant.

Do you not feel connected to those in the past that fought/died/failed/succeeded to do what they could to change peoples lives for the better? Or do you think they should not have bothered trying as our species is doomed anyway? — universeness

Case by case. Some past efforts were seriously misguided; some had the right idea and tried to achieve their goal by the wrong means; some chose unwisely in their alliances; some were clever and competent and persistent. I am connected, Dog help me!, to all of humankind. And while I feel just as, or more connected to the animal kingdom, the dolphins won't invite me on their exodus.
We might have done better but for a handful of terrible decisions. We had some pretty awful tendencies from chimphood on, which we might have been able to overcome with intelligence in all that time you think we have. But we took a wrong turn; embraced the wrong side of our character, and so lost our way to enlightenment - even our Enlightenment was fatally flawed. There were decisive moments when we could have gone changed direction, but we have somehow gotten into the habit of following all the wrong leaders and ignoring all the best advice. The very last such moment that I'm aware of was 1980. We didn't take corrective action then, and have now passed the point of no return.
And I still hold out hope for the species. It's the civilization that is doomed.

What you said is agreeable but who is going to put in the effort to make that happen and how can such a dreamer activate the community? — Athena

Lots of people have, and are doing it. https://ecovillage.org/urban-ecovillages-north-america/

I hope it's the right video this time.

You cant get more unjust than that! — universeness

Damn real! I liked Jesus - at least in the pictures where his heart wasn't exposed (*shudder!*) until I read the NT. So there he is, this hero with super powers, and how does he use them? He smites a fig tree because it's not the season of fruit, and then throws a herd of innocent pigs off a cliff. At 12, I had very strong sense of justice. I've tempered it with some forbearance since then - a feat the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god couldn't manage.
No, that's not fair! He was actually doing a little better in the ecumenical 1960's, except he did nothing about the child molesting - too busy scoring football goals in Brazil? Then got hijacked by white southern Baptist preachers in pursuit of fast bucks and political clout. "So it goes.... "

I think it's fun and I also like some of what is produced. — T Clark

I like some of it, too. But after a while, they're all too much alike. Perfect forms, perfect faces, perfectly coloured inside the lines. Like all the advertising and illustrative computer graphics, it looks and feels mass produced. And there is already far too much of it.

I assume visual artists feel the same. — T Clark

I can't speak for all visual artists, but yes, I would agree. There isn't much more gratifying that bringing an idea or image out of one's dreams* and making it in the real world.
(* I used to have a sort of recurring dream of going to craft show and buying something I really liked, only they would never let me carry it past the glass doors, so I had to memorize it and try to recreate next day in my studio. Silly, but I made some OK sculpture.)

Can that be taken away? — T Clark

No. But a lot of artists have day jobs to pay for paints or clay, rent and catfood, and the computers can certainly take that away.

houghts? I have no particular agenda here. I guess I’m just looking to clarify for myself how to think about these things. — T Clark

I think posters, rather than artwork. Of course, I have the same reaction to quite a lot of human-produced graphic art. I see a great deal of overlap between CAD and AI. They are all pretty and very neat; spontaneous human art usually isn't. I quite like some of them. The fantastic houses, I like very much. Also the balloon heads and the deer/camo wallpaper.
But I like Chimpanzee art more.

I accept that you think our species will have to experience an almost, close to extinction event, before we learn how to 'get it right.' Would that be an accurate summary of your position? — universeness

Close enough. That's the optimistic end of my spectrum.

I remain confident that it wont get as bad as that. I think that's the only main difference between us, — universeness

Correct. Ish. Close enough.

I reject the comparison. The actions I propose and the improvement they would bring are imo, very plausible, possible, practical and progressive. — universeness

It wasn't a comment on your proposal; it was on your view of achieved and achievable progress. Anyway, some psychologists consider that attitude healthy. My comparison referred to

In fact, there is a bias that is deeply rooted and pervasive throughout all cultures and all people, and it helps us to be happier, healthier, and more connected with others. It’s called the positivity bias, or the “Pollyanna Principle.”

(first citation) and added the second in case you didn't know its origin.

I don't think it would be accurate to compare your position, to that of the character chicken licken, would it? — universeness

Absolutely not! I will accept Chicken Little or Henny Penny
Which turns out to be the more accurate prediction, we will probably not find out. (If we're lucky)

Well, I would certainly prefer it if people could contribute to society by doing what they love doing most, and I think that should always be the goal but we should all share in the crappy jobs as well, until they can be fully automated. — universeness

The workd that needs to be is what needs to be done. Self-employed people do all of it, direction and scutwork.

My promotion prospects were quickly destroyed, due to my 'honest' interactions with parents during parents evenings. — universeness

That sure resonates! I was lucky in my regular job, too: hospital laboratories are better managed and have better atmosphere than many other workplaces. But my SO was a software architect who would talk back to managers with their own career agendas about their counterproductive decisions, and was labelled "not a team player" - which in Corporateland is akin to a yellow armband. In the end, he had no viable option but to go independent at one third the income of contract work. Happiest decision he ever made.
Nobody should have a job. Jobs destroy integrity, self-respect, family, community and democracy. As long as humankind is divided into employers and employed, masters and minions, democracy cannot flourish.

Positive psychology https://positivepsychology.com/pollyanna-principle/
Pollyanna

In our large cities, we are lonely people in the crowd. We live as strangers to each other and hopefully, we share some values and ideas about appropriate behavior. — Athena

That is not necessarily the case. This was a run-down, trouble-prone housing project near the hospital where I worked. It got better since that time. There are many community gardens in big cities in the US, too. As gardening brings people together, so can an industry or reclamation project.

Any neighbourhood can become a community; given the resources and freedom, any well-functioning neighbourhood can become a self-governed political unit. One of the key factors to involve everyone, down to the toddler old enough to remember which weed to pull and big enough to carry a thermos, in the planning and in the work, to the extent of their capability, as well the benefits. Not to do things for other people, but with other people.

Did you not also experience anger that something as pathetic as money, dictated the availability and quality of education for any individual human? — universeness

Oh, sure, since I can remember. When my grandmother urged me to finish all my dinner (she was too generous with the helpings); think of the starving children who would be grateful for it, I wanted to go find those starving children and let her feed them. When I got older and understood why they were starving, I knew some adults someplace were screwing up, big time.

But since then, what with charities collecting everywhere and volunteers going everywhere, all of you Pollies have been reassuring me that every day in every way we're getting better and better. Just wait another century of progress and everyone will be fine. Thing is, the Doomsday Clock won't wait.

The spectre of scarcity is a crock. Today it's artificially and selectively created, through agencies that promote overpopulation (state religions, mainly, over long periods) to keep the peons fighting over scraps, while the prosperous waste

Approximately US$1 trillion of food is either lost or wasted annually – an amount that accounts for nearly one-third of the world's food. According to the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), ending food waste would preserve enough food to feed two billion people.

and the wealthy convert resources+man-hours into useless luxury.

I'm reading a novel right now Awaking Hope about a Zeitgeist inspired world order.

That is from KJV which is a poor translation. It's more commonly used as "fathered". And God cannot lie, it's not in his nature. Nor has he ever been proven to lie. — Isaiasb

:zip:

If ‘pre-modern’ peoples are not dismissed as quaint, bloodthirsty, ignorant, or impossibly saintly, then there exists a chance that their way of life will be studied and taken seriously.
What things did they know that could help us? — 0 thru 9

Quite a lot, seems like. And have, including the use of corn, yams, peanuts and tomatoes.

Tribal societies are extraordinarily diverse and there’s a lot to learn from them. When tribal peoples have secure rights to their land and the ability to choose how they live, they tend to be among the fairest, happiest and most equal societies on the planet. Here are 5 simple lessons:

there is substantial scholarship on the influence the founding fathers derived from Native American governing systems and philosophies.

Indigenous Peoples’ contributions are essential in designing and implementing solutions for ecosystems. Traditional knowledge and heritage can contribute to environmental assessments and sustainable ecosystem management.

This is part one in a series of articles about restorative justice practices of Native American, First Nation and other indigenous people of North America.

I loved being a teacher — universeness

Me too, for some little whiles. I was lucky enough to do it in informal situations. Pottery class in a summer camp for children with cancer; ESL for adults at night school, practical instruction for tech students in the laboratory. Way more rewarding than the daily slog and paperwork of a classroom!
Stratified civilizations have to regiment every aspect of life, lest the citizens break formation and forget their place.

Indeed, all your questions can be answered based on the freedoms-obstacles equation. — Alkis Piskas

Yes, this is true, and a comprehensive definition.
It is, however, very little help in formulating a political philosophy. When discussing freedoms within the structure of a society, we need to tackle more specific questions regarding the distribution of obstacles placed before segments of the population; who can/ should/ is entitled to place what obstacles before whom; and whether the governing group can / should / is entitled to remove natural or previously imposed obstacles from some classes of citizen.
I didn't ask those questions in any detail, but some posters have already extra dimensions to my originally question. I has grown wider and more interesting than my original intent.
Thanks for adding another perspective.

John 3:16 doesn't say, God impregnated Mary and she gave birth to a son. Jesus was Begotten not Made. — Isaiasb

Genesis 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:”

How did Adam beget all those kids without impregnating a woman? Probably Eve, there having been a scarcity of women at the time.

God is Truth — Isaiasb

Right. So God is a Truth who lies to some people some of the time.

Yeah. I'm ready to serve my 3-day silence now.

Why are people engaging with this person? — Ciceronianus

Something to pass the time. Do tell about the lion! Does he eat Daniel this time?

Jesus was fully human — Isaiasb

He is God, from beginning to end. — Isaiasb

So... which?

it's different then Greek Mythology where Zeus impregnates people. — Isaiasb

Then I guess either God or John was lying. So... which?
Really?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

If that didn't happen, how did Jesus get to be a god?

The old testament law wasn't Absolute, it never claimed to be so. — Isaiasb

God was not really God back then and his truth wasn't really True? Then it must have gotten truer over time, and now its Absolute? Or it sudden became Absolute when God begat Plato or Jesus or Muhammad or Billy Graham. So... which?

Just how many ways can you split and bend an incoherent claim?

Nietzsche was wrong. — L'éléphant

Oh. In that case, I should only be annoyed at people who quote him. I'll try...

But more importantly, some extant tribal cultures have been going for several thousand years.
Some may hastily dismiss these as ‘not examples of a civilization’, but I think that is too narrow a definition. — 0 thru 9

On my part, it's not a case of dismissing tribal cultures, but rather of differentiating tribal cultures from urban ones. What people usually consider 'civilized' begins with city states with a hierarchical social structure, work specialization, standing armies, currency and written laws. These civilizations have a pressure to accommodate growing populations and material consumption through aggressive expansion.
The need and greed for more land and resources invariably means subjugating 'other' peoples. If the conquered tribe is small enough in numbers, it is assimilated over time. If it's a substantial enough population to keep its own traditions alive, it remains an unsightly lump under the carpet for the rest of the empire's life. Of course, much depends on how the minority is treated. Celtic and Germanic mercenaries fared well in Rome; Mesopotamian slaves were distinctly unhappy.

Imperialism, like capitalism, demands continuous growth. This always ends in internal corruption, schism and overreach. That alone may result in the collapse of an empire, but the collapse is usually hastened by the advent of the next empire forming at its flanks, waiting for an opportunity.

What happened to US politics is not in any sense tribal. A political faction, a bunch of yahoos united by nothing more than license to oppress another group, a deluded minority of underachievers dreaming of reclaimed privilege, those with actual privilege too jealous to share - these are not tribes.

Yes!
This has been one of my contentious issues with the American notion of freedom. "The land of the free and the home of the brave" had a population of which two thirds lived in some form of bondage, from marriage through forced relocation to outright slavery.
The American mythos doesn't just objectify freedom (something we own and they envy) almost to the point of believing they invented it, but iconizes freedom as the brass ring on the merry-go-round; the ultimate prize that all peoples must strive for. You don't hear much, in American legends or entertainments, about the abuses of freedom.

If Jesus is both God and Man he can’t “come by” his divinity. He is God, from beginning to end. — Isaiasb

IF. If he was Man, he was born of Woman, thus "coming by" his humanity. If he was also God, that Woman was inseminated by God, and that is how he would he would "come by" his divinity. So how do you know he's a god, if not from that same book, full of the dubious exploits of that same disreputable Jehovah - who, according to you

And the Old Testament wasn’t written for today it’s like saying Ancient Greece laws wouldn’t work today.

has already changed his Absolute Truth several times in the past 4000 or so years. And, as you allow him to do anything he wants, and as he seems to have done quite a few things (slaughtering Egyptian babies and stealing their parents dishes comes to mind) that modern law doesn't allow, the absolute is wearing off his truth pretty fast.