I agree no need to "correct" AI/Dance, same show.

They are alternative standards. — T Clark

Ok, then in my estimation, AI meets the criterion which asks if it elicits strong feeling, no?

may make sense to think of individual performances that way. — T Clark

It may be I'm confusing the trees for the forest.

What you have there is an assortment of performances within the framework of a commercial production. — Vera Mont

Strong argument, yes.

I appreciate that, even in order to be entertaining, any media has to be involving emotionally and there is an art to achieving that — Baden

Understood your response. Does "content" like AI produce that "Sublime.?"

Maybe you are right, if the feelings are manipulated out of me by architects of manipulation, it is not art. Like Nazi propaganda ought not to be viewed as art.

it makes a clear line drawn in which we can define "art" better through a definition that values "creation" over profit. — Christoffer

Perhaps that needs to be a criterion; if tge intention is solely commercial, let's agree it is not art.

This would be a superimposed deterrent, I think, designed to keep art "clean."

But in my heart, I might find a McDonalds commercial artistic. What then?

Part of me wants to consider AI a hybrid artistic competition and documentary, similar to how if instead of singing it was painting. The subject matter would be art, but the TV show would remain exactly that, a TV show — Outlander

I think you are likely in the conventional majority.

But thank you for seeing my struggle.

As for singing being a talent as opposed to creative, I beg to differ. The creative interpretations by these presumably novices, is one of the things which moved me physically.

Nice criteria. So it is art if the creator intended it to be; and, if it elicits a level emotion tantamount to that experienced by its creator. American Idol on the face of it is not art.

But not necessarily because it is entertainment. Take something like SNL. The writers of the skits arguably intend to present their work as comedic art; the art elicits a similar level of laughter in the viewers as it would have the writers.

You cannot say the same for AI.

Sincerely, I agree that your explanations are sound.

I ask this for clarification, not argumentively, do you think addressing feelings as their neurological processes are the only correct way? Do you think that the representations generated by our brains are no less real than the neurons which generate them?

Does that make it art? — T Clark

That's what I'm saying. Are we tacking on quasi-elitist conditions?

terms "displacing projections/imposition" you refer to the way language "displaces" non linguistic intuitions — Constance

Yes. Exactly that. Add, nonlinguistic could just as easily be called pre-linguistic.

Colon Conners speak about Henry: we have turned away from life, — Constance

Without knowing enough yet about Henry, I cannot say I am on board, but with that statement, I am completely.

The epoche asks the philosopher to suspend the most common thinking that we naturally settle into in daily living, and reduce the world to its pure phenomena. This term "pure" is of course at issue here. can one actually have a "pure" perceptual encounter with the world such that what is there is received perceptually as it is. The analytics would add to this "as it is independently of the contribution of the perceiver, and this obviously creates a problem in epistemology, for S know P is nonsense if there is no essential "knowing" — Constance

This is intriguingly on point. Both the problem of "pure" and of the epistemological problem of "perceiver" "knower" are addressed by what I thought you were referring to in the OP re "essence of religion ".

1. "Pure" "perception", is not perception at all. It is sensation. And similarly, perception is not pure, it is mediated by imposition construction/projection. Sensation, the direct aware-ing of the human animal, pre-construction, is "pure"

2. And said "pure" sensation cannot be "known". Knowing is of the construction projection. Being the organism sensing is the only access we have to "pure". Hence no epistemological problem.

"What's the point?" Asks the imposition construction projections, "if there is no meaning to the sensation?"

And that's why religion, in its essence, "saves" us, affording us a glimpse into being without the imposition displacing it with knowing.

A bit windy on that. Sorry. — Constance

No, you were clear. I do understand the "paradox" and the "problem" of is-ness (I prefer is-ing). But I am currently settled here and am discovering a bounty of parallels

one has to be rational to know since knowing is the affirmation, the denial, the conditional, the conjunction and so on. — Constance

Yes, I recognize that in the world of knowing, cause and effect, linear time/narrative form, difference, dialectic, reason, logic, meaning and so on,
necessarily function.

I hold that they do not function in nature, or the world of being. It does not imply dualism. There is only the world of being. Knowing is fleeting and empty.

THIS is what possesses one such that one cannot understand the "truth" as you have been describing it. One is busy, entangled and fascinated IN the totality. — Constance

Yes. Exactly. I have found that History is constructed and projected and moves as one Mind. Too much to describe here. The point is, we are truly ensnared in History because my mind is your mind is History.

But religion provides, in essence, a peek into the truth that we are not History.

nothing physicalist in any of this. — Constance

I've taken up enough of your time, and appreciate it. I'd say quickly this. Those desires, Icecream, a walk in the deer park, love even, are "spiritual" because they are constructed (mind).

What is real is not desire but drive, not Icecream and gluttony (trust me, Im a glutton) but hunger and satisfaction; not love but bonding and mutual concern.

Seems like entirely different subject matter. — Vera Mont

Might not strike you the same way. I am amazed that art, which is a representation of representation, can so profoundly affect the body to feel, without having to have recourse to any immediate constructions. The directness, and the potency of art's affect on reality (I.e., us) moves me.

And as for American Idol, of course I know it barely qualifies as art. Yet, I must unashamedly confess, at moments, it profoundly moved me, before any of my words could move in and construct meaning.

You must accept my premises to really appreciate it in the way I'm trying to describe. However, I respect that it is difficult to accept.

Elon Musk seems to have sublimated most of his anxiety and worries better than anyone else. — Shawn

Good for him, if that's true. But I imagine it is not black and white. There are likely more layers to what surfaces as sublimation than even experts can address. But for one, is it really sublimation taking place? Or is it a "healthy" denial or turning away? Are the hypothetical anxieties transfigured into "x"? Or are they set aside, always clamoring against success, to surface? That's one layer. For Musk, another is his seeming financial security. Has he sublimated his anxieties? Or does he have the means to many distractions? And so on.

I understand and appreciate the question, but think it is complex.

I guess, as an afterthought, you may be after a simple point, and a simple point can be made, which is, Musk has applied all of the contents of his experience and achieved success, despite his anxieties. Notwithstanding the potential for relapse, or whether it's just marketing himself as a resilient brand, is that not healthy sublimation?

Sorry, I didn't get much beyond the OP question. It didn't seem relevant. — Vera Mont

No worries. Thank you for your perspective. Strictly speaking, American Idol certainly doesn't match the definition you quoted.

Artists like Tom Waits or Leonard Cohen would never make it because they would be too interesting and unorthodox. — Tom Storm

So true! Try Bob Dylan. You make an excellent point.

Something doesn’t have to be good to be called art — Tom Storm

True enough.

Idol is also kitsch — Tom Storm

...or "inferior" art. Maybe it will be in its "kitschiness" that future generations will find an appeal.
Kitsch can make us feel in not readily identifiable ways too.

:up:

I understand the OP question — 180 Proof

Ok, from that perspective, I have no issues. Of course the fear of death at the root of myth and ritual.

Sorry I went off (likely willfully blinded) on my own tangent.

Michel Henry — Astrophel

I watched the video. Very interesting. I'd like to read his trilogy even as art.

My obviously hasty and prejudiced take is 1. he was aware of the crisis of (Kant ff) phenomenology, 2. He was aware that the resolution could be (may only be) in a turn to religion, 3. But fell in love with the art of it and got carried away, just like all of metaphysics since Plato spoke of the cave and proceeded to bury himself and all of us in it.

If it interests you, I think it's common sense that people turn to religion to resolve the fear of death, which as you say, and I agree, is rooted in the I/world duality.

But, when you ask these people, and I would assume, in your own mind, how does religion resolve this painful dissonance, the answer is with the promise of immortality.

That, I believe, is an error regarding the essence of religion. If that were the case, and only that, I'd stand with you on this.

However, the essence is to seek the truth that we are not this I/world duality, we are an organic being like any other animal. There is no end of the story I am identifying with and terrified of losing, because there is no story, there is no I. Thriving human which was born and though driven to surviv, thinks not of dying, and simply will die.

It is that understanding and acceptance which alleviates the dissonance by unveiling the truth behind the duality. That is the essence of religion.

But few are willing to see that religion essentially IS the world because the world is indeterminate and it is in the ethical indeterminacy of the world, or our being-in-the-world, that insists on meta-redemption and meta-consummation. — Astrophel

Very nice! Your secondary part is almost soteriological, though I totally understand and agree with the moral/metaphysical concept of a "need" for "redemption". And that is exactly what I was attempting to suggest.

But also, from that. The so called order is the determinate world which has displaced the natural indeterminate reality. To me, the latter has neither ethical nor moral concerns. It (literally) just is that it is-ing, and we are that we are-ing.

Our ethical concerns are that within that "box" we mutually understood, there are established laws relating to order, or "functionality" because that's all the box is about.

And beyond the function of the box, morality relates to that "redemption" you eloquently pointed to because perhaps by nature, perhaps by a divinity, who am I to judge, we intuit that we are in a box and that there is a truth being, and a morality has evolved which suggests that excessive attachment to the box is "evil". This provides, by chance, evolution, intuition, or design, an incentive to seek Truth. Ergo, religion and its essence.
And, ergo:

Redemption is about being "thrown" into a world of suffering, the negative dimension of ethics; and consummation refers to the positive completion found in the incompleteness of desire. — Astrophel

The negative/positive dialectic, as you put it: my "incentive to seek truth".

Both expressions of the same essence of religion.

you might find the brief discussion about Michel Henry very interesting — Astrophel

Thank you, I will.

It took our perspective away from our living reality and gave us an objectification of the self — Astrophel

This sums up what the entire human condition is, I believe, since the dawn of history/the dawn of human mind.

forgotten, as Kierkegaard put it, that we exist. — Astrophel

I think Kierkegaard made the correct and necessary movement (though there are aspects of Hegel, I prefer) for his time.

I think the movement we are ripe for today is that philosophy has forgotten we are organic beings.

this kind of "truth" can be said to be about qualia, the phenomenologically pure color or sound, say. — Astrophel

If I am understanding correctly, here is how this kind of "truth" can be said to be about...pure color or sound: because "we" are talking about the sensing (of) the organic (human, but not necessarily) being as it is sensing, presently and in "truth," and "free" of the displacing projections/imposition thinking.

But, and here's where I'm not certain I'm understanding correctly. This "sensing" "presently" "free of displacing projections" is what Kant is staying clear of. His phenomenal is the color or sound already mediated by imposition thinking. Perception; one step removed from sensation. But the kind of truth we're talking about is sensation, pure, direct, but unknowable.

qualia really doen't carry meaning. — Astrophel

Yes because "qualia" if that "experience" of direct sensation, is before meaning has been constructed and projected.

The Truth as in essence of religion, is unmediated, not knowable by logic or reasoning. More similar, in human knowledge, to "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" Or, a God who dies a criminal, to save humanity, no less.

A sprained wrist is worse than, — Astrophel

My only comment here is to acknowledge that physical pain is an example of that kind of truth. The "suffering" we primarily experience is purely constructed and projected and calls for something like "the essence of religion" to relieve us from.

However, though the first instant of physical pain provides a glimpse into that same "truth", just like it is in Zazen, or deep contemplative prayer, the truth in much physical pain is quickly bypassed by attention to imposition thinking.

It's just that I think it's important to note that this framework is always already there, even when one is questioning it's limits. It is IN the questioning. — Astrophel

Totally. For me too. It also creates the absurd irony of either of us discouraging as if we're accomplishing anything outside of the box which is not ready there, but in which we ineluctably look.

This would be a very different kind of truth that has to be set apart from propositional truth — Astrophel

Yes, that is not just a prerequisite, but the "hypotheses" informing me suggests that the Truth being sought is necessarily "beyond" logic. That is why "we" have "placed it"/"found its place" outside of conventional philosophy and in, say, "religion."

PROVIDING you have had the same kind of experience — Astrophel

And this "need" we have for truth to be objective and verifiable if not empirically then by "shared" experience is only applying the laws of the very framework that the "essence of religion" which I am positing (admittedly, also within that same framework) is a refuge from.

We understand the world through language. — Astrophel

Agreed. "Understand." But we are Truth (not propositional, but the one nondualistic truth) by being [It] by [being its] doing.

superimposed knowledge" would be dogmatism, which is accepting without justification. — Astrophel

If you are referring to my use of "imposition thinking" and superimposed, I say to clarify my perspective. There is dogma, that is like law, superimposed twice removed from being. The superimposed I'm thinking is every human mind based experience, perception, emotion, idea, thought, conclusion, belief. These are superimposed on real organic consciousness, aware-ing, by the constructions-then-projections of Mind, displacing real present being with the representations of becoming.

I submit the essence of religion may free one of that, albeit very briefly and requiring repeated efforts. Nonetheless, the glimpses into such Truth may afford a more authentic approach to the representations we are enslaved by.

Note: this is not a judgment against knowing. It has many pros. It is simply a way to consider its actual status. a
And by doing so, by recognizing that Truth is ultimately in being-doing, it may improve how knowing/thinking can function for individuals and perhaps the species. Afterall, human Mind (like our concern about AI today) is a tool that got away from "us".

we can infer that there is Will based on our own subjective aspect — schopenhauer1

Ok, yes "infer" based on our subjective. He too admits to not "knowing" the "ultimate".

Thank you for that link. 1911! Looking forward to reading it.

:fire: — 180 Proof

I hope to "god" this doesn't offend you. But there seems an underlying humor? Not your thinking; its delivery. I prefer you don't answer. Regardless, it's growing on me. And I appreciate the Dialectic, even though I do not believe we are necessarily in antithesis.

e.g. the difference between being free and not being free — 180 Proof

I get your perspective, even that it is accepted widely. But I happen to think difference is exactly where freedom stops. I'm not sure if you would be interested in having me explain further.

Adam and Eve" were slaves punished with mortality by The Master for learning that they do not have to be slaves by learning to disobey (i.e. how to free themselves). :fire: — 180 Proof

That's a completely understandable read. I'm not humoring. If I wasn't currently settled where I am, I'd prefer that over the traditional misunderstanding.

I'm not sure if you think I'm promoting "religion" as in the institutions we both seem to reject, or if you are of the mind (which I sincerely respect) that religion is unreasonable no matter what its methods or aims.

But I've seen "evidence" that--though an obvious allegory--the Eden story, as expressed in the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible, expresses a "truth" which philosophy to my knowledge has forgotten. Possibly blame it on, not Socrates, who warned against knowing, but his disciples Plato then Aristotle who went on knowing like madmen, exposing that we "chose" the construction of our own world, one built upon the knowledge of this and that, difference. Rather than accepting God's world, Nature, Life, living.

We are stuck in becoming, religion gives us access, albeit tiny glimpses, into being.

And I realize the story of Eden is fiction, and this sounds like a literary assessment, at best; or at worst, like new age crap. And I understand the resistance.

But that's what I have settled upon. Religion is not harmful, or even useless. Not in its essence. Not if one recognizes its essence is a return to "Eden," to attention to our organic being in being "itself," aware-ing its feelings, and drives, bonding with its group (I wont even say, "grateful;" that's no less imposition thinking), and not our imposition thinking and the Subject it travels by.

After all, the Abrahamic tradition begins with a woman disobeying "the Lord" who forbade her from eating fruit from a "Tree of Knowledge" (truth): Hebrew (JCI) scriptures depict "the original sin" as a woman thinking for herself by "seeking truth".

Your take is of course reasonable and functional.

Here's a "different" take of the same story.

We start off with freedom.

God says, you are living beings, I created you for living. Eat from the tree of life all you want. Being is living.

But you are also free and intelligent beings. There is the tree of knowledge. Don't eat from it, though you have freedom and curiosity. What do you want with knowing? Being is not knowing.

Knowing is (to stick to the OP term)

the imposition thinking — Constance

. And, not only not where you will find the "essence of religion, but precisely where we lost both the essence of religion, that is, living and our freedom in the process.

Where once we were free to our living, now, we are Slaves to the imposition thinking which makes some of us construct "religion" and others of us despise it.

All the while we are ignoring its essence, living, being, without knowing. The truth.

it needs a lot more. — Astrophel

Without a doubt.

truth needs to be understood very differently from what is generally understood in philosophy and its often steely devotion to logic. — Astrophel

Yes, my exact position.

When one "authentically practices" religion, have they, as you suggest, become nothing less than meditating Buddhists? If so, then this needs to be further understood — Astrophel

Not necessarily Buddhist meditation, nor Christian prayer. These were raised to point away from the direction of "imposition thinking." Not sure if OP intended the same, but I am coming from the angle that knowledge is superimposed, displacing truth.

Philosophy (also, theology, myth, dogma, ritual) no matter how clever or eloquent, is messing with superimposed knowledge.

"Authentic" practice (whatever that is, if I define it, I bring it into superimposed) I am proposing (which finds its source in religion) allows a (brief) turning away from superimposed knowledge and, presumably a glimpse at Truth.

Needs more, but defining it brings it into superimposed. It must be practiced in order to be accessed.

Ok, then your use of essence conflicts with mine. I don't deny yours exists. Unless you were being flippant, you don't deny some religious folk seek Truth. Good enough.

As for my erroneous assumption about you being frustrated, I guess that's your standard speech. I won't misread it next time.

I would see the fear of death as the basis for the bastardized version of religion. The one which has you understandably frustrated references to the scriptures.

But the core of religion, is not the denial of death, but its affirmation, along with life: Truth, not imposition thinking (sorry, Constance, or Nietzsche, the term fits).

If so, then why are religions not founded on public impersonal objective truths and are not daily practices (celebrations) of rigorous public error-correction? — 180 Proof

Well, after prefacing my answer with the admission that I'm no authority, because as I said, individuals can experience the essence of religion in authentic practice.

As for its failings in the public square, as I said, once that core seeking of Truth became identified, say, as God, it got swept away by "imposition thinking."

What you are (seemingly) frustrated with is not religion, at its core, but a bastardized version.

The same can be said of democracy at its core. Somewhere there might be an elected official practicing authentic democracy. The fact that it is not so in the public square is not the fault of democracy.

I would agree with Nietzsche (here, but in few other places) that a great deal of what we fuss over issues from errors conceived out of the imposition thinking has itself created. — Constance

And religion is necessarily not that. At its core it is refuge from that. Religion is turning attention away from our imposition thinking, our knowing, including, God forbid, our Philosophies, and returning it to Truth.

That we identify that Truth as God or Spirit is only a reflection of our intuition that it is something utterly other than our imposition thinking, the place we seem to be ineluctably trapped. Though, so calling it ended up naturally getting carried off by the rapids of imposition thinking, and mythology, ritual, law and dogma surfaced.

But at its core seek Truth, all else is talk.

I think Religion is the victim of prejudice. Its like hating hockey if the NHL has serious issues. That core seeking of Truth exists in many if not all religions. And cannot by definition exist in (Western) philosophy.

When religion is authentically practiced by an individual, they express that core. They loosen, if not abandon, attachment to ego, the Subject to which imposition thinking falsely attaches. And often, they spend a lot of time in meditation or deep prayer. In these states, they are either loosening attachment to imposition thinking all together, or at least, focusing on a single imposition thought, leaving much more "space" for the Truth to naturally become the focus of one's organic aware-ing.

The essence of religion is seek truth; and it holds true in its authentic practice.

Easier said than done, though. — Janus

Totally

That is more like the Sōtō Zen attitude of ‘ordinary mind’. — Wayfarer

If enlightenment is possible, then it must be experienced directly — Janus

Just sitting in Zazen is Enlightenment. "Ordinary mind," is bodily aware-ing "freed" from the displacement of projecting mind.

That's what I took Janus to mean. And that's why Schopenhauer "failed" when he misapplied some of the projections to the Will (given that the Will, for him, is ultimate reality)

yet I think the idea of the radically transcendent is of great import and meaning in human life, precisely as "the great indeterminable" — Janus

No disagreement from me, to that whole paragraph.

If enlightenment is possible, then it must be experienced directly and could mean nothing to those who have not experienced it — Janus

Might even be, as in Kierkegaard's knight of faith, imperceptible to those who have not.

I'm saying the things in themselves are thought as real, but of course that for us they are noumenal, that is they are not real but merely thought. — Janus

Yes. Understood

I think it would apply to all noumena, that, if they are real, they are not merely thought, even though they may not be able to be anything but thought for us. — Janus

Ok, and I see this position commonly in various forms. I respect it and desire it. But why? Why is it that "object" referenced as noumena necessarily (if that's what you're
saying) exist beyond thought? And they must, you already accept we cannot know their form. So we are speculating about both their existence and form. We might as well resign ourselves to the fact that idea is as far as we go. If there is a reality it is utterly other than any idea we have.

sorry, last of the choppy replies.

I.e., is Kant not saying noumena, the "idea" of "things" not accessible to the senses, is as far as we go. Anything beyond noumena, any "thing" as it is "in itself" so to speak, independent of our ideas and perceptions, is inaccessible, be that a so called "apple" from the phenomenal "view" or so called God from the noumenal point of view. The limit of knowledge in its pursuit of Truth is idea (of Truth) ?

I'm just interested in your take on this. Same with my second "reply". I agree with you, insofar as the word fits; more like, you're enlightening me to more perspectives

Of course I hope you read what I said under the caveat "for Schopenhauer". I was basically asserting it to be a logical concomitant — Janus

Yes, I was agreeing, and hinting that this necessary conclusion is my problem with Schopenhauer, whether he meant it or not. But I can't believe he fully meant it. Not judging his genius. Obviously. More his context, historical, and otherwise.

not the (unknowable, unthinkable) real things in themselves as such — Janus

I understand. What are the real things in themselves? Are they just that? Real? Is it plural, as you suggested?

If we "designate" the idea of God as noumenal because we cannot know God, is then God, independent of our knowing, Real? And would that apply to all so called noumena?

Is the real not utterly inaccessible to knowledge, and that's why Kant was "right" to keep his distance?

then being must be equated/ confated with Will. — Janus

Confounded, if you ask me. But that's weirdly my limit reached with Schopenhauer. Everything "before" this Will, (that he on some levels "maligns") is Ultimate Reality or Being (because at least K had the decency to bow out), I cam stand behind, albeit with minor modifications. But not that.

If there was no free will, our bodies would run off like criminals and try to take us for a ride. — Barkon

I think, we falsely accuse our Bodies, when it is Mind which both constructed and projects gluttony.

As for running off if there was no free will, again, I think the opposite. Thank god Mind moves on a dynamic incessantly in pursuit of the most functional projection. Gluttons to the extent of criminals are an aberration in the conventional narrative. Thank god there's no free will or Mind would have gone extinct eaons ago.

yes, K. and you wouldn't say my read, though worded idiosyncratically, is inaccurate?