¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

And now imagine that a white Mexican says this to a mestizo Mexican during Spanishness Day (Día de la Hispanidad). Do you see how grim this whole thing is? It's brutal.

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta? — Arcane Sandwich

Now imagine a Castilian saying this to a Catalan. Imagine a Catalan saying this to a Basque. Imagine a Basque saying this to an Andalucian. Imagine an Andalucian saying this to an Aragonese. Repeat until more than half of the population dies. If half of the population hasn't died by now, keep repeating it until it happens.

And now a ski lift has collapsed in Northern Spain. Hey, wait: Don't blame Spain. It might very well be the fault of the French or the Germans. — BC

I don't know. What I know is what you're probably getting at there, if I were to read between the lines. But no, the Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is an extremely dark, depressing subject matter to think about. Because, at the end of the day, after hours and hours of mutual accusations and rebuttals from the Spanish Left Winger -versus- the Spanish Right Winger, both of them arrive at the same exact conclusion, which they say to each other:

¿Que os pasa, anti-Español hijo de puta?

And once that's said, the dialogue is over, and the actual physical fight starts. If no one steps in to stop it, it will end in death. That might seem senseless to your mind. Well, you wouldn't be wrong. It is indeed senseless. It's just senseless violence.

But that's what "being Spanish" is all about. The Spanish Essence Day (Día de la Hispanidad) is national holiday in many South American countries, including Argentina. It's also a national holiday in Mexico, and in some countries from Central America as well.

It's just pure fratricide at the end of the day, at the level of identity politics, if that makes any sense. There's no other way to describe it.

I will listen to more of the Symphony later. — Amity

The following song would be something like John's political Manifesto, I would say. And I happen to agree with him, if he intended it as such. Otherwise, if I have the right to interpret it as such (as a political Manifesto, no matter if John intended it otherwise), then I would say that I mostly disagree with all of the points being made.

Which philosopher thinks that affirming language games means that nothing existed before humans? — frank

A crazy one. A deluded one. An uneducated one.

Sir, I will politely point out that you have not answered my Question, which is the Question of the OP: Is the number 1 a cause of the number 2? Yes, or no? If so, then we would have to say (how couldn't we?) that the number 2 is the effect of the number 1.

Suppose, if only for the sake of argument, that such is indeed the case. What would that tell us, about the numbers themselves? Is the number 2 the cause of the number 3, for example? What is the cause of the negative number -5? What is the cause of the imaginary unit "i", which (allegedly) successfully refers to an "imaginary number"? What is the difference between a Real Number and an imaginary number? Are imaginary numbers unreal? What would that even mean? It's a mistake to confuse ontology with mathematics. When mathematicians speak of the set of the Real numbers, as something different from Imaginary numbers (like 1i, or 3i, or 5i), they're not conceptualizing them as "stones and trees -versus- mythological creatures". It has nothing to do with that. So why would you even say that the number 1 is the cause of the number 2? Why would you even speak about the mathematical relation between the number 1 and the number 2 as if it were a metaphysical or ontological relation? Because that is what the cause-effect relation is, at the end of the day: it's a metaphysical or ontological relation. Now, if you want to call that into question, in the manner of a British Empiricist like David Hume, be my guest. But I have just as much right to conceptualize it as an ontological relation instead, which is precisely what Mario Bunge does, and I agree with him on that point.

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue — Alestorm

And now we're going to listen to Alestorm's masterpiece, their song Treasure Island. I'll even post the lyrics, because it's their Masterpiece. It's like Pink Floyd's "The Wall". Alestorm has created a Conceptual Masterpiece, and this following song is like their Sacred Hymn, it's like Hesiod's Theogony in that sense. You have to listen to this one from an Anthropological point of view, objectively, because Anthropology is a science. So, let's listen to their Masterpiece from a scientific point of view:

[Verse 1]
How did we come to this place and time?
Our lives now ruled by a mariner's rime
We sold our souls to tell this tale
This quest for treasure we regale

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy

[Post-Chorus]
The mate was fixed by the Bosun's pike
The Bosun brained with a marlinspike
And cookey's throat was marked belike
It had been gripped by fingers ten
And there they lay all good dead men
Like break o'day in a boozing ken

[Verse 2]
High was the price that was paid this day
We spun the wheel 'til the coppers ran dry
Nevada sun was burning bare
The stench of everclear filled the air

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today

[Solo]

[Bridge 1]
Fifteen men on the dead man's chest
Drink and the devil had done for the rest
But one man of her crew alive
What put to sea was seventy-five

[Solo]

[Bridge 2]
On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Our luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Your luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
The fates shall be eternal on your side
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Outro]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
Our destiny lies in the waves
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy — Alestorm

Nevermind me, I'm just playing the role of the DJ / Bouncer of this Thread, right now. It's all ambience from me at the moment.

[Verse 1]
How did we come to this place and time?
Our lives now ruled by a mariner's rime
We sold our souls to tell this tale
This quest for treasure we regale

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy

[Post-Chorus]
The mate was fixed by the Bosun's pike
The Bosun brained with a marlinspike
And cookey's throat was marked belike
It had been gripped by fingers ten
And there they lay all good dead men
Like break o'day in a boozing ken

[Verse 2]
High was the price that was paid this day
We spun the wheel 'til the coppers ran dry
Nevada sun was burning bare
The stench of everclear filled the air

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Chorus]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
We're going there today

[Solo]

[Bridge 1]
Fifteen men on the dead man's chest
Drink and the devil had done for the rest
But one man of her crew alive
What put to sea was seventy-five

[Solo]

[Bridge 2]
On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Our luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

On the endless quest
So far into the west
Where history and destiny collide
Your luck will last forever and
The truth will never die
The fates shall be eternal on your side
Prepare to roll the dice just one more time

[Pre-Chorus]
With the stars in the sky our guide
Voyage ever onwards
Set a course to the other side
Of the endless oceans blue

[Outro]
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
Treasure Island
Oh, the legends told of a land of rum and plunder
Treasure Island
On a quest for gold we'll sail the seven seas
I can't believe we're on our way
Our destiny lies in the waves
We're going there today
Yarr ahoy — Alestorm

Check out this other song by Alestorm, this one is (to my mind) a serious song, unlike the ribald shanties that they usually sing. It's a philosophical song, that's why it's conceptually awesome, it's like Pink Floyd in that sense:



EDIT: Note to self, Alestorm are the Scottish Pink Floyd.

EDIT 2: Another note to self: Swashbuckle are the New Jersey version of Metallica.

EDIT 3: I intended the aformentioned Edits in an Anthropological sense. If someone feels offended by them, great.

Amazing. I didn't, but now have. — Moliere

The actual story behind the song is even crazier:

(...) Four deputies, two sergeants and one detective from the Adams County Sheriff's Office are accusing the rapper of profiting from the unauthorized use of their likenesses, at their personal and professional expense.

In a complaint filed in an Ohio pleas court last week, they say it's been more difficult and dangerous to carry out their duties "because of comments made and attitudes expressed toward them by members of the public" who have seen the videos.

They say they have received death threats, and also suffered "humiliation, ridicule, mental distress, embarrassment and loss of reputation." (...) — National Public Radio

I think it speaks a fantasy that never was — Moliere

I totally get it, believe me. But let's be real here, "A Country Boy Can Survive" is a dumb song. Maybe it was cool in like, I don't know the late 80's or early 90's. Today it just sounds corny. The Y2K version is better in that sense, independently of what side we take in the "Hank Williams Jr. VS Chad Brock" sort of debate:

I enjoyed the song. I enjoy them creating this idea of pirate music that's metal :D — Moliere

Dude, it's the only video (so far) that can't actually be played in The Philosophy Forum, you can only watch it on Youtube, and it's age-restricted. Like, you can probably embed actual fascist music in this Forum, but you can't embed Alestorm's song "Fucked With an Anchor". That's why they deserved the Gold Medal in Heavy Metal today, IMHO. They're so fucking over-the-top, it's insane. The whole "True Scottish Pirate Metal" thing is a sort of a half-joke directed at "True Norwegian Black Metal" bands. In other words, it's directed at "fucking wankers", in the wise words of the cultured folks from Scotland. In that sense, check out this killer song:

I relate TOOL to jazz a lot because the band mimics a lot of what jazz has already done with respect to rhythm -- they change rhythms throughout as jazz does as a way of making the music and expressing it. — Moliere

Sure, I listen to Tool myself. It's a mediocre band, that's all I'm saying.

I think I just like any music which plays with rhythm. (I started your video but they were talking about a lot more than Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. -- on its face I could see TOOL as Toxic Virgin, but I don't know why that's bad.) — Moliere

The dude in the video pulls up the chart in like, during the middle part of the video or something, and he uses Tool as an example of a Toxic Virgin. Not so much Tool themselves, but rather their fans. Tool fans are toxic virgins. He also says that Mötley Crüe and NOFX are toxic chads. "Boyfriend Country" would be Healthy Chads (think of the band Home Free, for example), Hatebreed would also be Healthy Chad, and in the Healthy Virgin quadrant he includes Paramore.

Anyways, yeah, Alestorm is fucking killing it. They're second to none (sorry Swashbuckle, it is what it is).

And until philosophy can settle any debate, in any capacity, there's just poetry. Until then, people like you and me will have eternal treasures of Music and Literature, that will never be stolen, because their Truth shines, such as the following example: — Arcane Sandwich

The reason why "Gallo Rojo, Gallo Negro" (Red Rooster, Black Rooster) is such a heart-wrenching song to listen to is because it directly relates the topic of the "Being of Spain" with the Spanish Civil War, in such a way that the conflict itself becomes meaningless from a semantic point of view, and only senseless violence remains. Because it's a song about "Las Dos Españas" (The Two Spains). What do I mean by that? The following.

The Red Rooster is the Socialist, or Communist, or Left Winger more generally. The Black Rooster is the Fascist, the Nationalist, the Right Winger. But as the two Roosters fight each other, they realize that they're both birds of the same species. So, do they lay down their arms, and hug each other in peace and fraternal love?

Of course not. You see, the Black Rooster was actually a Royalist, he wasn't interested in defending fascists or nationalists, he simply wanted what was best for the Spanish Crown. In that sense, the Red rooster isn't the communist, he's the Republican, so the "Left vs Right" fight sort of "degenerates" into the previous conflict, Royalism vs Republicanism (if you can't possibly comprehend how a republican can be a left-winger, just think of the Irish Republican Army).

Ah, but it was all just smoke and mirrors, because while these two roosters were fighting to the death, it just so happened that we had it all wrong: the Black Rooster was actually an anarchist, a freethinker, a libertarian, someone who just wanted to be left alone, a follower of Bakunin, you could say. And the Red Rooster was actually an oppressive, Marxist defender of the state and all of its bureaucracy, a Stalinist, no better than Hitler.

Oh, but the Red Rooster wasn't actually any Marxist, he was a Trotskyst, so he was against bureaucracy, what senseless things the Red Rooster says.

At the end of the day, the Red Rooster was just a proletarian. Whatever sins he may have committed, the fact of the matter is that he was poor. But the Black Rooster was a lumpen-proletariat, so he was even poorer, which is why he's fighting the Red Rooster in the first place, there's not enough food to go around, and, being an individualist instead of a collectivist, the Black Rooster just wants to survive.

But, as the last part of the lyrics say:

"I warn you, Black rooster,
A red Rooster doesn't surrender
Until he's dead."

The moral of the story here is that in the end, the ideas themselves didn't matter. They were simply two people that were forced to kill each other for no reason. This very fact is what constitutes the fratricidal character of the Being of Spain. The Spanish essence (Hispanidad) is defined in part by this fratricidal confrontation. It's not exactly what Plato or Aristotle would have called an "essence":

The being of Spain or the problem of Spain is the name that usually designates​ an intellectual debate about Spanish national identity that arises with regenerationism at the end of the 19th century, and coinciding with the appearance of peripheral nationalisms. It converges with the topic of the two Spains, a very descriptive image of the violent division and fratricidal confrontation as a characteristic of the contemporary history of Spain. — Wikipedia (translated with Google Translate)

EDIT:

In that sense, the conflict or problem hasn't ended, even today. It doesn't matter that Franco died 50 years ago. Franco doesn't even matter to begin with because this fratricidal confrontation is part of the Spanish essence (Hispanidad). Here's a song about this very problem, but from a punk rock point of view:

I can imagine some metaphysicians complaining that my approach is disgracefully messy and unprincipled. Even if the charge of arbitrariness can be defused, case by case, by appeal to a hodge-podge of different phenomena, the conservative treatment of ordinary and extraordinary objects evidently isn’t going to conform to any neat and tidy principles. So whatever conservatives are doing, they surely aren’t carving at the joints.
I would remind these metaphysicians of the story of Cook Ting, who offers the following account of his success as a butcher:

I go along with the natural makeup . . . and follow things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint . . . However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety.

Some cooks are going to view Cook Ting’s approach with suspicion, as they watch him slowly working his knife through some unlikely part of the ox, carving oxen one way and turkeys a completely different way, even carving some oxen differently from other oxen. They’ll see his technique as messy and unprincipled, hardly an example of carving the beasts at their joints. But from Cook Ting’s perspective, it is these other cooks, the ones who would treat all animals alike, who are in the wrong. They aren’t carving at the joints. They’re hacking through the bones. — Daniel Z. Korman

Though, if you think about it, @BC, Home Free are just a "boy band" at the end of the day.

Here's what a real, civically and socially responsible adult actually listens to:

Read 'em and weep.

BTW, I took both the red and blue pills... :-D — A Realist

This guy says that he wants a third pill:

Are the anti-mining folk ready to do without their big, bright, screens? Go back to landlines, green computer screens, and black and white TVs (which used a lot of lead)? Probably not.

Mining can be done better and it can be done worse. Generally we can extract and refine metals without wrecking the environment -- it just costs more to be neat and clean. — BC

I would say that much (though not all) of the criticism in that sense is born out of the following sentiment (I'm just hitting below the belt at this point, but what is poetry useful for, if not for that?)

To tell you the truth I was diagnosed with schizophrenia some 22 years ago, I lost touch with reality; so it makes me wonder what is indeed real and what is not. — A Realist

It's a pleasure to meet A Realist that has used philosophy in order to placate the horrific subjective experience of hallucinations, which are symptomatic of schizophrenia. You have effectively weaponized philosophy in order to fight your inner demons. I find that virtuous, worthy of praise.

As you know, schizophrenia is no less noble than cancer. A patient of the former doesn't choose their woes any more than the patient of the latter does.

Stay strong. There is no better pharmakon for losing touch with reality, than a healthy dose of philosophical realism.

Do you speak Spanish? Here is an article from La Real Academia de la Historia (España), about a clergyman called José Manuel Peramás, a thinker from the 18th Century, that lived in Misiones, Argentina, with the Guaraní people. He wrote a book called "The Republic of Plato and the Guaraníes".

https://dbe.rah.es/biografias/20789/jose-manuel-peramas

I have that book. Here is an extract, that I translated to English myself:

"No republic, comparable to that of Plato, will be able to subsist in Europe, based on its impious dogmas. It is more appropriate to ask: Does such a republic exist? Did it ever exist in the world? That is what we propose to investigate here. And we hope to be able to demonstrate that among the Guaraní Indians of America, Plato's political conception was realized, at least approximately."

(edited for clarity)

Non-theistic systems that will invoke "religious" concepts e.g. karma, rebirth, etc. — BitconnectCarlos

Would you include the indigenous religions of the Amazonian peoples in that group?

other religions of the sort. — BitconnectCarlos

What do you mean by that?

As for the Silver Medal, I suppose that Swashbuckle currently deserves that:



As for the Bronze Medal, that one goes to Avatar:

Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both? — Moliere

To answer your question. It's a tough question, because most metal bands actually suck at instrumentation (believe it or not). I mean, in the jazz community for example, everyone is technically excellent, as far as instrumentation goes. In the metal community, you can be a shitty musician and still have a metal band. That's what it has in common with punk rock. But, yes, unlike punk, metal musicians "aspire to" some sort of perfection of their craft, or at least an acceptable level of technical proficiency, whereas punk rock just doesn't give a flying fuck about that (which I can genuinely respect, actually. It's the same attitude that early Grunge had, for example).

So, after careful consideration, and among many possible candidates for the band that is currently succeeding both conceptually and instrumentally, I would have to say that band is, currently, Alestorm. Why? Because they're fucking killing it, that's why.

Fuck True Norwegian Black Metal. This is True Scottish Pirate Metal, matey! :death:

I was being facetious. — Vera Mont

I know, I was just playing along.

These are not scientific treatises - they're myths! — Vera Mont

Vera, I'm not sure I need to remind you that there's people that say that the Earth was created just a few thousand years ago, and that God put atoms and isotopes that "seem to indicate otherwise" just to "test the physicist's good Christian faith". Like, I'm not making this up, you know it, I know it, everyone knows it. It's a real problem in education just at a merely institutional level, to say nothing of a cultural level.

The first ever clone with involuntary gender reassignment. You have a problem with that? — Vera Mont

But that's my point: how could God clone her, if there were no eggs for the clone cell? She was the first woman, right? So where did the egg come from? Did Adam have a secret ovary? Like, it gets progressively worse the more you think about it. This one is way, waaay worse than the "dinosaur thing", in my view. The kind of theory that one requires in order to defend it is just so unfeasible that I don't think that anyone can really make a coherent case for it. Folks will usually tell you that dinosaurs didn't exist, but they're reluctant to explain what this "magic rib" even is.

(edited due to severe confusion on my behalf)

I checked with Copilot and AI agrees with you. (Well, it used to be - it hasn't provided much guidance in recent years, unless one means scientists who speculate) — jgill

Good to see that there are still rational people among us, in this day and age.

The object is an image of energy/spirit/mind. — EnPassant

Is it like the Holy Ghost-Spirit-Dove/Pigeon in Christianity?

Are you saying you have the final word on the nature of existence? — Harry Hindu

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, now give me my briefcase full of money.

Are you saying that the matter of the ontology of existence has been settled? — Harry Hindu

Of course, I've just settled it. Glad that I could help. Now, about that briefcase.

I don't think so — Harry Hindu

You're free to think whatever you want, just as much as I am. Or are you now going to tell me that you don't believe in basic human rights?

Not every idea is a fiction. Everything is a process. Non-fictional ideas "are just brain processes too". The difference is their relationship with the world, and what kinds of things you can accomplish by implementing them. Do you successfully get your starship to Mars, do you dress up in a way that others successfully recognize you as Santa Claus? — Harry Hindu

I don't believe in process ontology, despite what Whitehead says. With a name like that, you might as well call him Crackhead.

Does your idea of how to play chess permit you to play chess? Does it not have a causal effect on whether you get disqualified from the chess match or not? — Harry Hindu

Nothing of that has anything to do with numbers. Why is this such a controversial idea to you, that you feel the need to discuss it so passionately? I see it as utterly mundane, it's like talking about what number you're going to bet at the lottery, there's not much to it in terms of metaphysics or ontology.

But how could real people act like someone that does not exist, or does not have some sort of causal efficacy? How did they come to dress and act like that in the first place? — Harry Hindu

Look. With all due respect. I see that you're an educated gentleman, and I've been acting a bit like a clown in my responses to you. But this thread is called "is the number 1 the cause of the number 2?" Now I ask you, sincerely: do you actually think that the answer to this question is yes? Do you really believe that? Or are you just wanting to have a verbal sparring session with me because you find it entertaining in some way?

Which ones, in the metal genre, do you think succeed at both?

TOOL comes to mind, but also it could be a cheap trick because they never explain themselves really -- it's all esoterica that alludes to psychedelic experience and trauma — Moliere

Tool might be one of the closest examples, though I wouldn't compare their technical knowledge of the guitar (acustic, electro-acustic, and electric) to Malmsteen's. I mean, this is just a fact, like, there's no arguing here, it's not a "subjective thing", if you will. It's entirely objective, and yes, I know that my opinion on objectivity is a controversial one.

But the problem with Tool specifically is that they are in the "Toxic Virgin" quadrant of the Toxic-Healthy / Virgin-Chad chart. You'll have to see the following video if you want to know what I mean by that, I'm too lazy to explain it here:

EDIT: Also, I've never heard that Afroman cover and love it. — Moliere

Dood. It's genius level stuff. The completely over-the-top distortion on that guitar. I was in stitches the first time I heard it, the sound of the guitar alone had me howling in laughter. And the lyrics are just insane. Afroman is legit, 100%. Did you listen to this one?

I listen to trash, like Hank Williams Jr. — Moliere

It's awful. Corny Country, Cringe Country.

the racism of some country stars has always bothered me -- — Moliere

Yeah well, there's something I gotta tell you about metal... (and about punk rock, and about rock and roll in general). EDIT: You know what? I'll just let Key & Peele tell you something about that:

God impregnates an unwitting virgin — Vera Mont

Right, and he impregnated her as a ghost, because that's what the Holy Ghost is: a ghost. Some people say "no, it's the Holy Spirit" but then in the same breath they say that yeah it's a ghost too in some sense. Anyways, the Holy Ghost is usually represented as a pigeon (a Holy Pigeon, if you will). Was it literal or metaphorical that Mary was impregnated by a Holy Ghost-Spirit-Pigeon?

The most mind-boggling case in that sense (to my mind, at least) is the story of how Eve came to be. God created her from one of Adam's ribs. Did that really happen like that, literally? Or is this is also metaphor? But if it's a metaphor, what is the underlying comparison or analogy here? A metaphor of what? When I say something like "Her teeth were white as pearls", I'm comparing teeth to pearls, on account of their "whiteness". If it's metaphorical that God created Eve from one of Adam's ribs, then what's the comparison here? What's the actual metaphor in this case? There isn't any, so the only rational conclusion is that we should read this story literally. Now, did that really happen? Apparently not, if we are to believe the most basic facts about human biology. People don't emerge from ribs, that's just not how it works.

Yep, it is what I thought it would be. I have an even better "argument" (if this is what passes for an actual argument these days):

1) Physics is the Queen of the Sciences.
2) Mathematics is the Empress of the Sciences.
3) Philosophy is the Goddess of the Sciences.

Therefore, I win.

Thanks, I'm reading it right now. I've heard the phrase "Physics is Queen of the sciences". So, I imagine that the article will say: Ah, but an Empress is Higher than a Queen, therefore Math is better than Physics.

Let's see if that Peircian inference-to-best-explanation holds up as a working hypothesis.

you need to read others in order to get a more complete picture of what Lao Tzu was trying to show us. — T Clark

I tend to get obsessed with one specific part of a text, and I focus on that. But that's a flaw that I have. It's a character flaw.

As others have noted in this thread, speaking authoritatively about the Tao Te Ching and Taoism is misleading — T Clark

It is.

it shows a lack of understanding. — T Clark

It does.

Why do numbers have to count things? Complex numbers define space and geometric concepts. And if they do count things note that complex numbers are used in counting Reimann's zeros in the zeta function. — EnPassant

So what's the imaginary number that the letter "i" refers to, for example when you want to calculate the square root of -1?. What number is "i"? You see? It makes no sense as a question, because you're not even referring to it with a numeral to begin with. Do you see how utterly pointless it is to talk about this as if this were metaphysics or ontology somehow? It's more like inventing some alternative rules for the game of chess. That's the "level of dignity" that Foundations of Mathematics has. Now whose "fault" is that? Do professional mathematicians need to take the blame here, yes or no?

"Tao" is usually translated into English as The Way or Path or Map. And the admonition to "follow the path of nature" could be expressed in a modern colloquialism : "get with the program". Which could mean "follow the rules", or "don't buck the system". So a word to the wise is "don't fight nature". — Gnomon

Yes. Indeed.

Instead of imagining Nature as the arbitrary laws of an oriental autocrat or despot, a more modern model of Natural Evolution might be as a computer Program, which is calculating a solution to a problem assigned by the Programmer. In that metaphor, homo sapiens or rattus norvegicus are not the chosen ones of a benevolent deity, but an intermediate stage in the process toward an ultimate answer*1. — Gnomon

Hmmm...

So philosophical wisdom would be to learn the Rules of the Program : what modern Science calls the "Laws of Nature", or what traditional Philosophy calls "Cosmic Principles". And those laws can be expressed most parsimoniously in terms of Mathematical Logic. But for non-mathematicians that Logic is usually described as verbal expressions of Dos & Don'ts ; Shalt / Shalt Not ; True / False ; plus operators And/Or/Not. These are the "guiding principles" that philosophers and religious founders expound to their followers, as-if established by Mother Nature or by God. — Gnomon

Yes. But this is a problem in our contemporary societies across the planet that we inhabit. And you will have to excuse me, if you are as kind as you say, when I say the following: if we wish to continue inhabiting this planet, something must be done about the problems that our contemporaries societies face. Our planet is being destroyed by an army of imbeciles. There is no plan to their actions, they have no strategy nor tactics. The are simply destroying the planet with the waste products of modernity, in a literal sense: our oceans are filled with plastic, "corporations ravage the Amazon like a Plague of Locusts", as the band Earth Crisis says in their song "Ecocide". Millions of innocent creatures die every day just so that mankind can keep progressing into increasingly obscene levels of commodity.

At least such is my sentiment on those matters.

But Laotse says "don't follow the Tao itself" --- as if a human dictator/superhuman god --- but follow the Rules --- as words to the wise. Physical rules are firmly established by science, but Meta-Physical (moral/ethical) rules are endlessly debatable. Except that the Golden Rule*2 is generally accepted as valid. :nerd: — Gnomon

Perhaps.

EDIT:

Why choose that one? Out of so many. — Amity

The Jane English version is "more ancient", more "ancestral" in its expressions. Compare it to Stephen Mitchell's translation, regarding the 10.000 things:

Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things. — Lao Tzu (Laozi)

Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe. — Translated by Stephen Mitchell, 1988

The Jane English version is objectively superior to Stephen Mitchell's version. I am aware that I said something controversial in the previous sentence. Such are the intellectual luxuries that the Tao Te Ching affords. You will not be able to speak like this in your ordinary life. This is Chinese Philosophy. It is entirely different from Western Philosophy. The only people that understood this point were Hegel and Schopenhauer. Just them. No one else in the West is in that club, at least not during the 19th Century. Today, matters are different. Today, many of us are in "that club".

So Jesus can't walk from here to there, just like you and me, for example? He doesn't undergo change of location? — Arcane Sandwich

God cannot change therefore Jesus is not God. — MoK

Is Jesus God?