• Is belief in LFW and lack of empathy correlated?
    ↪Bitter Crank
    I am exploring the idea of character in relation to freewill in another thread here asking if we have the capacity for freewill. I believe that when we act 'out of character' it could be an example of freewill.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Music is not a particular, it is a universal, or type. It is a catagory error for you to use the Law of Identity in the way you did, there has been no violation. — DingoJones

    Music is a general / abstract name given to different combinations of notes. Music is the general title that all pieces of music belong to as separate entities. The word music may describe a general or universal term but when you think 'music' there must be a certain 'piece of' it that supports your idea of it.

    Damn I guess I need to go back and study the section on universals.
  • Is belief in LFW and lack of empathy correlated?
    Substance addiction acts in many ways like a Frankfurt case with the exception of the seemingly voluntary side. In which case we can't judge the freewill of the addict while he is addicted but we can examine the events leading to the addiction.

    Some addicts became addicted through no fault of their own, the producers of oxycontin need to sell their pills, some US states are suing these companies for telling doctors that they are relatively safe drugs when they are in effect heroin in pill form. These cases deserve empathy.

    For those who chose to mess with addictive drugs and are now trapped, well they do deserve sympathy even though they have given up trying to exercise their freewill.

    Finally some people do actually manage to kick the addiction and I believe these people are real candidates for freewill. BTW Alcohol addiction is just as bad and far more widespread, it is just more affordable and less problematic with the law.
  • Fallacies of Strawson's Argument vs. Free Will
    I agree that it was a horror, but I do not think that the definition of "anarchy" fits the kind of horror it was. — Dfpolis

    Agreed
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    To make it coherent it must be realized that according to this view we are also ideas in the mind of God. Sense data, our sensory apparatuses, our brains, our minds, our souls are all ideas in the mind of God. So there is no problem concerning our bodies interacting with other bodies (or our souls or minds) on this view.

    In your last sentence did you mean 'material universe'?     — Janus

    I am not sure that I agree with you on this point. Berkeley says that all that exists are spirits, ideas and an infinite spirit. Are you sure that our spirits are also ideas of God? It certainly solves my problem with the immaterial universe because as you say it simply doesn't exist if our minds are only ideas of the infinite spirit, we are then in a B.I.V scenario, but is Berkeley saying that?

    If he is then isn't he denying the outside world and objects in it? Which he seems committed to maintain, he states that the world is real just not material. Or is he saying that it seems real?
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    The substance of Berkeley's philosophy is well known. What do you think it means to be a concrete thing? To my understanding it means to be a stably persistent entity that does not depend on the human mind for its existence. How would Berkeley's things, which are stable entities in the mind of God, not qualify as concrete objects? — Janus

    The more I think about it I still don't understand how it all works. How do we actually receive sense data if sense data is basically Gods ideas? If it is a Brain in a vat situation I can understand, however if it isn't then where exactly do our minds exists? How do our own bodies interact with other bodies?

    I also understand the frustration people are having with this discussion of ideas and matter. I still haven't understood how the immaterial universe actually functions other than God makes it so.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    You measure ideas by comparing them to other ideas. What is it about an idea that you want to measure - it's impact on society, it's coherence? Ideas can be measured empirically. — Harry Hindu

    You have made Berkeley's point. Only ideas can resemble ideas. You cannot compare the idea of a tree with a tree or with anything else except another idea. All we know immediately are our ideas and we don't know enough about our own biology to say much more.

    Yes indeed we have been to the moon and made some stunning advances in technology since Berkeley's time, however we still produce electricity from steam and use our technology to make smart phones and social media.........
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    So asking people to ignore someone who doesn't hold your views and doesn't conform to how you think a philosophy discussion ought to be is doing philosophy? — Happenstance

    Please read all of his posts before commenting. There is only so much I can take from someone who keeps contradicting his own theory. I am expressing no views here, only discussing two theories.

    I will defend each side as equally as I will attack them both. If Terrapin wants to make sophistic arguments then I just ask he does it somewhere else.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    then the statement is meaningless. — Wayfarer

    We have had a few of those in this thread so far :)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    , but this person is in their situation exactly because they tend to turn order into chaos (and recently squandered an unearned, relative fortune on drugs in a spree.) — sign

    You have no way of supporting such a generalization. People fall on hard times through no fault of their own, or by being unlucky. We are all just accidents of geography and family. Those who may have fallen into chaos also cannot be judged, we are all victims of circumstance and you really shouldn't judge anyone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    It feels good to be good. — sign

    Kant said that happiness is not an ideal of reason but of imagination.
    Nietzsche said that man does not strive for happiness, only the Englishman does that.

    Rawls makes an important distinction between good and right, with right taking priority.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    But I find it hard to separate high states of being from some kind of positive feeling, something like a 'deep' pleasure. — sign

    In search of our own pleasure we ignore the plight of the weak and of those yet to be born. IMO we need to have duty as the main position for morality. A duty to ourselves, to others, to the world, and to future generations. We must learn to forfeit pleasure for long term security.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Must we fit it into that jacket? — sign

    Sir may currently choose between jackets made from three types of material, Virtue, Duty, and Consequence. Once you choose the material there are further choices of 'cut' and 'style' for Sir's jacket, but yes the options are quite limited until someone invents or discovers a new concept. :)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    I am most fascinated by that in 'myself' which transcends me in some sense, but not as an 'alien' object. I — sign


    That is your Kantian position.

    Ultimately I think we want our lives to be beautiful and fun, which is not to insist on some shallow beauty or fun but quite the reverse. — sign

    And here we have your Utilitarian / hedonist position.

    The trick is finding a balance between the two. If you were only allowed to stick to one of these positions, which one would you choose? Which one has priority?
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    ↪sign
    If we saw people as minds the world would be very different. Ignore the body, the sex, the social position and just focus on the mind. That is where our individuality lies, it is everything important in our lives. It is the next stage of evolution that the materialists are not yet ready for and so do all they can to focus on wealth, beauty and fun.
  • Anyone care to read Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason"?
    How about we jazz things up with some more light reading, what about Russell 'On denoting", here is some serious competition for Emmanuel!
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Right, and just a few hours ago you were talking about the existence of music, and matter. How you contradict yourself. — Metaphysician Undercover

    Some people refuse to admit when they are in over their depth, they will twist and challenge everything rather than accept that they may be wrong about something. This has been an excellent discussion thread that Terrapin is intent on degrading down to a level where he can make his points heard.

    If I could go back and delete all of his posts from this thread we would actually have a pretty solid piece of philosophy here. Thank you Meta, Janus and wayfarer, you have all brought valuable points to the discussion. I suggest that we just stop answering this Terrapin until he starts doing some philosophy.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    ↪Terrapin Station
    To me being one seems to entail being the other.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Why change the topic to natural laws? (I'm not a realist on natural laws, by the way.) — Terrapin Station

    How can you claim to be a physicalist and not be a realist on natural laws?
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    So all I ever need to do with you in order to present an argument is disagree with you? — Terrapin Station
    https://youtu.be/uLlv_aZjHXc
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Haha — Terrapin Station

    At least Socrates thought so :)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    What in the world would be the definition of "argument" you'd be using? — Terrapin Station

    That he doesn't accept your premise and has not been convinced by Bose-Einstein condensates
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Philosophy isn't about pretending to be ignorant. — Terrapin Station

    Part of it is
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    I know you're not a physicalist. I am a physicalist, and presumably you know this. Repeating that you're not a physicalist isn't an argument against physicalism. — Terrapin Station

    Actually it kind of is.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    what this seems like to me is you trying to argue in kind of a cocky way from a position of near-complete science illiteracy. — Terrapin Station

    I think that is called doing philosophy. If I wanted a scientific discussion / debate I wouldn't expect to find it on A PHILOSOPHY FORUM.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Terrapin Station
    5.3k
    But music is not the thing you are sensing,
    — Metaphysician Undercover

    lol. You are really off your rocker.     — Terrapin Station

    Well in the case of the Grateful Dead it is something that they believe that they sense. They also believe that it is music :)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    So there is certainly a profound difference between idealist and physicalist views. — Janus

    Would you say that as a theory materialism is instrumentally better than idealism? (in the Berkeley / Locke debate)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    What are you basing this likelihood on? — Terrapin Station

    On the other guy for sure :)
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    ↪Terrapin Station
    Matter--substances consisting of subatomic particles, which combine to make atoms, which combine to make molecules, etc. in various structures of gases, liquids, solids, plasmas, and Bose-Einstein condensates — Terrapin Station

    I wont pretend to even understand the last one but you seem to define matter as molecules that are made of atoms that are made of particles.

    Trees are particular combinations of molecules, undergoing particular processes. Hence, trees are matter. — Terrapin Station

    So you are saying that objects are specific combinations of the components of matter?

    Mind is particular subsets of brain structure and function. Brains, of course, are composed of particular molecules undergoing particular processes, too--many different materials than trees, — Terrapin Station

    Ok I have a problem here, firstly I don't understand what a particular subset of brain structure means. Secondly Brains and trees are largely made of water, so the must more shared matter between brains and trees than distinct matter. Also these processes you talk of bother me, surely a the matter in a brain (a thinking substance) is undergoing more processes than the matter in a non-thinking one?

    Trees are living and so perhaps can be seen as pseudo thinking in comparison to a rock let's say, however trees are in a constant state of growth and change whereas once fully grown brains are just slowly decaying organic material. We can see how a tree can be about wood, bark, branch, root and leaf, but what is a brain about?
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    he idea of the physical is, among other things, the idea of radical, brute separation of all things from one another, whereas the idea of the mental is the idea of the deep inherent interconnection of all things. — Janus

    Locke separates, see's and uses words as symbols. Berkeley unites, listens and uses language to express much more than symbols.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    lol. You are really off your rocker. — Terrapin Station

    Please remember the principle of charity, it is far more likely that either Metaphysician is failing to explain the point or that you are failing to understand it than Metaphysician being insane.

    Until now he / she has made the most relevant posts in this thread and seems to have a superior understanding of the subject than most.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    If trees are matter, then you sense matter all the time, right? (Well, assuming you often encounter trees.) — Terrapin Station

    Let's try this from another angle that a 'dead head' can handle ;)
    Can you please tell me what is matter? Then tell me what is a tree and then what is a mind.

    If we can get these definitions accomplished we might be able to make some progress.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    ↪DingoJones
    Their existence is in our perception of them.
  • Reconstructing Democracy - A New Form of Government?
    Why are we not sharing the belief that democracy is about being well informed and empowered to make the best possible decisions? — Athena

    Because modern democracy just isn't like that any more, it's all image and 'spin'. Countries with smaller populations without religious divides do still have meaningful democracies but they are usually socialist. Capitalism is the enemy of meaningful democracy.
  • Reconstructing Democracy - A New Form of Government?
    ↪Athena
    Utilitarian philosophy is the philosophy of big business, maximize profits by maximizing short term satisfaction. Consequentialism needs to take long term consequences far more seriously and this is exactly the problem democracies face.

    Democratic governments are usually loathed to invest in vital infrastructure ahead of investing in popular policies like tax cuts and health care. The reluctance to carry out the projects needed to make real change is because these projects can rarely be completed within one term in office. No politician wants to commit resources to any project that they will not be able to claim success for and benefit from the political capitol gained to get re-elected..
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    ↪Metaphysician Undercover
    Superb explanation, thank you.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Jamesk? What is the difference between "mind" and "matter"? — Harry Hindu

    Matter is physical and mind is not.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    You know that empirical claims are not provable, right? (Assuming that you're using "proof" in a more strict sense of that term.) — Terrapin Station

    Which is one of Berkeley's crux points. You have no more proof for materialism than for immaterialism.
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    We know how to measure this, and it's relatively easy to do so" isn't actually a criterion for something being physicall. — Terrapin Station

    Could you please tell me what the criteria are then?
  • Idealism vs. Materialism
    Consciousness does not appear to be material.
    — Jamesk

    See, Harry, you get people saying things like this     — Terrapin Station

    You obviously believe that mental states are brain states which are biological states which are physical states and so mental states are physical states. This has yet to be proven.
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