The slave has a very keen sense of justice. N says it's a reactive and requires external stimulus. I wonder if what N is calling slave morality is self-loathing one takes up on behalf of a world that seems to always proceed forward without ever feeling the weight of condemnation.

It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Sounds right.

What brand of morality decrees this? — m-theory

It's partly expressed in the message of Jesus. More broadly in the ethic of progress. The rich are fat and satisfied, so they have to reason to be on the move.. to be progressing. Where progress is a virtue, satisfaction is evil.

Where I see it in the world around me is in my liberal friends and family. One displays one's angst as a badge of goodness. I find myself falling into it as well. And it's true, it's partly just straight envy.

So do you guys think it's true that the meek are not blessed.. because they're "just a bunch of meeks"? Can't remember who said that.

Isn't Virgil's line about overturning the Trojan state a concern appropriate to Rome, but not to the very distant time of Homer? And if so, isn't the existence of the Roman State the result of radically different economic circumstances than what Priam (or anybody else in the Iliad or Odyssey knew)? — Bitter Crank

Virgil attempts to capture the spirit of Rome in the Aeneid. The Greeks are condemned for their unjust destruction of Troy, which was supposedly done out of passion. Proper Romans have gravitas, not passion. Virgil was a Celt, by the way.

Identifying Troy as the origin of the Romans was in line with an ancient tendency to have respect for older cultures.

I still think the old site was raided for password trafficking, so discontent was warranted.

You actually weren't at the inception of this site. I was, though.

OMG, dude. You've got to check out Inferno. Down into the bowels of Hell, the team arrives at the bottom. Dante says to Virgil: 'So what now.. do we go back up?' Virgil says 'Watch and learn.' They climb onto Lucifer's thigh and go down instead of up. Dante then realizes they aren't going down anymore.. they're headed upward. Yes, sports fans. The earth is a sphere. Sci-fi greatness.

Glad you brought that up. Where that's done well, a movie can work and be a healthy engagement. It rarely is. Maybe Cronenberg. — Baden

Isn't it easy enough to avoid movies? Are you surrounded by people who have movies blasting continuously? Is it like Clockwork Orange where you live?

I'm usually as focused on how it was done technically, — Terrapin Station

Yep. I know your type. Ideally we can honor our diversity. The poster boy for the way I experience theater and film is Chekov. I enter into a reality bubble. I wasn't totally aware of it until I met a person like you who pays attention to the production itself. I tried doing that and found it a little exhausting.

To each his own, right?

Surely you have some stress when watching gore. Isn't that the point? Sort of like getting on a big roller coaster? My favorite horror movie is The Shining. I used to be unable to watch the whole thing. Now I love it.

I'm picky about horror. I have a tender psyche.

The Wizard of Oz is very stressful. One lives through all the horrifying things the characters do on the way to the revelation of grace through adversity.

Catharsis and such. The US entertainment industry is awesome. Meanwhile, lost in time, a crowd sits around the storyteller wondering if Gilgamesh and Enkidu will survive their encounter with Humbaba, cringing and gasping in the fire light.

I'd happily see Hollywood obliterated if possible. Let Agustino arm the bomb and I'll light the fuse. Then we can get back to throwing grenades at each other. — Baden

That sounds like a Hollywood movie. Hollywood is in the USA, so your statement calls for a Virgil quote.

"When Heav'n had overturn'd the Trojan state
And Priam's throne, by too severe a fate;
When ruin'd Troy became the Grecians' prey,
And Ilium's lofty tow'rs in ashes lay;
Warn'd by celestial omens, we retreat,
To seek in foreign lands a happier seat.
Near old Antandros, and at Ida's foot,
The timber of the sacred groves we cut,
And build our fleet; uncertain yet to find
What place the gods for our repose assign'd.
Friends daily flock; and scarce the kindly spring
Began to clothe the ground, and birds to sing,
When old Anchises summon'd all to sea:
The crew my father and the Fates obey.
With sighs and tears I leave my native shore,
And empty fields, where Ilium stood before.
My sire, my son, our less and greater gods,
All sail at once, and cleave the briny floods.
"Against our coast appears a spacious land,
Which once the fierce Lycurgus did command,
(Thracia the name- the people bold in war;
Vast are their fields, and tillage is their care,)
A hospitable realm while Fate was kind,
With Troy in friendship and religion join'd.
I land; with luckless omens then adore
Their gods, and draw a line along the shore;
I lay the deep foundations of a wall,
And Aenos, nam'd from me, the city call.
To Dionaean Venus vows are paid,
And all the pow'rs that rising labors aid;
A bull on Jove's imperial altar laid.
Not far, a rising hillock stood in view;
Sharp myrtles on the sides, and cornels grew.
There, while I went to crop the sylvan scenes,
And shade our altar with their leafy greens,
I pull'd a plant- with horror I relate
A prodigy so strange and full of fate.
The rooted fibers rose, and from the wound
Black bloody drops distill'd upon the ground.
Mute and amaz'd, my hair with terror stood;
Fear shrunk my sinews, and congeal'd my blood.
Mann'd once again, another plant I try:
That other gush'd with the same sanguine dye.
Then, fearing guilt for some offense unknown,
With pray'rs and vows the Dryads I atone,
With all the sisters of the woods, and most
The God of Arms, who rules the Thracian coast,
That they, or he, these omens would avert,
Release our fears, and better signs impart.
Clear'd, as I thought, and fully fix'd at length
To learn the cause, I tugged with all my strength:
I bent my knees against the ground; once more
The violated myrtle ran with gore.

----------- from the Aeneid book 3

Objectivity is a path to a neutrality. It hasn't been that long since alcoholism was considered to be a character flaw. Identifying it as a disease allows us to drop the stigma and invest in treatment. Are there some who persist in thinking of alcoholics as bad people? Sure. Their view isn't the scientific one, though.

I think the very idea of mental illness is a scientific one.

Somebody call Karel Capek! We discovered Marxism!

Sorry... couldn't resist

But I have no scheme — unenlightened

Wait.. I think you answered me without understanding what I had asked. Just a lot of talking past one another. OK. I'm out. Peace, dude.

Well.. can I just ask then: when I asked you what you've done with the discovery that you can reject the given, why did you say you had no psychology at all?

Constant innovation. What was that movie with Cruise where he gets offered a Guinness by a hologram? Coming soon... — Baden

Seinfeld did an internet show called Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee. It's pretty good. It's funded by Acura (why do I remember that?) and every time an Acura appears on the show, Seinfeld points out that it's "product placement."

Funny.

All nature was the manifestation of other minds; — unenlightened

Other?

In English we say "I am cold."
In German, it's "I have cold."
Russians say: "The cold is upon me."

Greek scholars say that Homer should be read the Russian way. All the stuff we think of as internal psychic forces is external in Homer. It's like the psyche turned inside out.

They would probably think we see ourselves as divine.

Sorry.. I missed your comments. As I mentioned early on the thread, I rarely see TV commercials because I watch streaming TV. I'm in that category that wonders: "Does anybody still watch broadcast TV?" Some do, but I think in many cases it's that they just don't know that streaming is better and cheaper.

I wonder how the advertising industry is planning to adapt to this change as it becomes more prevalent. Any thoughts on that?

Would you share your perspective on advertising?

I did too. There's no theory here.

Re "identify the conspiracy theory," I'm simply referring to ideas such as those presented in this thread--that advertisers are plotting how to make people feel unhappy, distressed, etc. — Terrapin Station

I don't think any theory at all has been presented. Terms were brought up and left undefined. Odd contradictory assertions were made and left unjustified. Whole bunch of nuthin' I guess.

But please, there is no question but that science directed outwards to the world has been hugely effective and beneficial. My criticism is that it is ineffective and counter-productive when turned inwards to humanity itself. — unenlightened

Ineffective and counter-productive? Would it be better to be effective and productive? What are you selling?

You know that the rise of psychological science allowed the mentally ill to be looked at non-judgmentally and therefore more compassionately. But the anchor of compassion (in my experience) is that big s-word: self. Have you become a self-realist?

Don't they have junkies in Mongolia?

He was a drug addict.

I don't know where Rush is. In a ditch somewhere?

Becoming is usually a present participle verb. As a noun it has a weird religious vibe. We await the Great Becoming.

Treating people as objects drives them mad, and we are doing it to each other more and more — unenlightened

I'd invite you to start your life over as a female and then if you're still inclined to discuss objectification with that brain trust of the species we call The Philosophy Forum.. go for it.

The topic puts me in mind of a little astrological symbolism. Capricorn is often symbolized by a goat standing alone on top of a hill (usually smiling.) The image is of a state in which one stands apart from the crowd and sees how sheep-like most people are. They long to be told what to wear, what to listen to, who to trust, who it's OK to shit on, what to say, how to smell, what to believe, etc.

You don't really need any jarring commercials. Just whisper in their ears. Now if you reject this perspective, I have 11 others you can choose from.

So you aren't attacking anybody. Good.

I've actually been schemeless, and it's a drag. Psyche is just an aspect of All. Psychic scheme plugs into All-scheme even if you're eliminative.

Scheme orders experience. It's a buffer. All your coping mechanisms arise from it. People who have no coherent scheme at all are crazy and not in a good way.

We functional people have some scheme though we may know it's a working scenario.

What have you done with this freedom? What scheme do you love? Or live..

For Hegel, becoming is primal. Too mystical?

There is a knot here — unenlightened

And you're bound by this knot as you speak of it. So you've painted yourself into a corner. I won't ask if that was your intention... that would require the illusive transcendent vantage point.

OK. Self-examination is hard sometimes. I didn't acknowledge that. So a step in that direction:

To some extent, advertising aims to be subliminal. This works by contacting deep seated biases. In other words.. people believe what they want to believe. Propaganda just helps get all the lemmings facing in the same direction.

You unenlightened, recently presented a variety of speculations about the US as if they're facts. Coincidently, these speculations have been presented by various media outlets... some of which have a known and self-acknowledged bias.

In the face of not knowing all the particulars... how did you come to be so convinced? You believe what you want to believe.... that's how. Question is: why did you want to believe it?

Global warming is going to kill people. Fact? Nope. Anytime you get a whiff of apocalypse, look for the myth below the surface. I could go on and on...

Can it be, hypocrite preacher, that you too do not like being called names and sworn at? — unenlightened

Sorry. I actually did think you were being hypocritical, though. Should I have just kept that to myself?

Fuck off out of my thread yourself if you have nothing to contribute. — unenlightened

I did contribute, hypocrite.

It works pretty well when you control what books are in the library, what sorts of things economists get Nobel prizes for, which philosophers are asked for their opinions.

Feel free to do what you preach. Self-examine. If you can't be bothered to do that.. fuck off.

I can see myself sitting in the middle of the island. Is this going to be a painting?

I only watch streamed TV. Hulu may still have commercials.. I don't know.