Just watched it.

Manipulation is not exactly a new thing, religions used it, politician use it, parents use it... heck even this documentary about manipulation had fitting music in the background so as to illicit some kind of emotional response.

What is new though, is the scale and sophistication of the manipulation, that truly is unprecedented. What's even more scary is that the whole AI revolution is only in its infancy at this moment.

My first reaction was to regulate it or to even pull it out of the market as some utility company so that the profit incentive would go away. But then again, can we really trust government or any group of humans for that matter with this much power? I think that is the problem, it's just to much potential power.

Therefor I'm tempted to agree with the lady at the end, just outlaw this kind of large scale data-gathering on humans. I could live with less sophisticated algorithms. Of course chances of this happening are rather slim because we live in a world with competing countries, and not under one world government, which makes regulating and enforcing this kind of thing traditionally very difficult... especially if a lot can be gained with it.

So... I'm not optimistic.

Right, I will admit that I don't exactly know what's going on there, I used it mostly as a container-term, not necessarily as an exact one to one representation of something that goes one in our minds.

But then again, I don't think I'm the only one that doesn't know. And maybe that's part of the problem with morality and free will that it just assumes a kind of agency without really knowing what is going on.

Banno, I think I agree that they are two ways of description on a different level or from a different perspective, but I don't think I'm pitting free will against determinism here. It's more an argument at the conceptual level I think, and I don't know if that necessarily has a lot to do with determinism. Maybe it does, I'm not entirely sure...

We make choices. What is that we that is making the choices? I'd say we are our will, by and large. That's still not really all that illuminating maybe... Let's say our will is a compound of different forces competing with eachother, maybe mediated by reason, maybe influenced by external sources etc... Whatever it is, my question would be, where does the freedom come in? What kind of, or what degree of freedom is it, if there is any? And what kind of freedom do we need or expect for moral responsibility?

Maybe reason could play a role there, but it still seems like you need some pre-existing volition to make a decision ultimately, logic on it's own can't tell you that. So it seems even only at the conceptual level, free will doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Therefor i'm tempted to say, we have a will [period]. It's not really free because we (our will) do not choose our will.

If free will is only the claim that we make choices, then yes I have no qualms with that, that seems (maybe trivially) true to me.

Maybe to clarify.

If we do not choose our will, and our will determines what choices we make... you could say that that implies there is no way in which we could have chosen otherwise. Acting otherwise implies in some sense that we would have another will, which we have no control over.

Can you say someone is morally responsible if he couldn't have acted otherwise? Maybe if the ability to act otherwise is not a criterium for moral responsibility etc...

What's lacking, or what would such an account require in order to "suffice" in this way? — Luke

I'm not quite sure as I indicated in my first post. Maybe there is a problem with our conception of morality being tied to freedom in the first place. Maybe we just lack adequate or accurate psychological descriptions at this point to make relevant distinctions for the purpose of assigning moral responsibility... In law for instance we do see some attempts at this, in that we do exempt people in some cases from legal responsibility, like age, (temporal) insanity etc... but we do not exempt other things that seem otherwise pretty similar. I feel like there's something there, but it does all seem a little bit murky and arbitrary to me.

It could mean, as you note, that nothing outside our will is forcing us to make that choice. — Luke

Yes, and I wouldn't have a problem with that per se. But what really matters is not so much if there is an account that would be acceptable, but if that account suffices to be able to speak about moral responsibility right? That's what really at stake it seems to me.

Yes, this is how I also understand Strawson's argument. I'm calling it a bad argument because the will is the source of our choosing between options. According to Strawson "how one acts is a result of, or explained by, “how one is, mentally speaking” (M)." To have truly free will, Strawson argues that we must be able to choose M (or how one is, mentally speaking) from scratch, whereas I would argue that one requires M in order to be able to choose anything, so one is not able to choose M without M. If "how one acts is a result of...M", then one cannot act without M (in order to choose M). — Luke

Ok, I fully agree to all of this... I think we make choices and our will determines those. In fact we need a will to be even able to make choices.

Where we possibly disagree, is that I wouldn't call that will free, precisely because we don't choose our will. You might say we are 'free' to make choices according to our will, but what does the word free really mean in that instance? I can see making a distinction between making choices based on our own will and being externally coerced into certain choices, but that to me isn't so much a difference between free and not free, but rather between externally or internally determined.

I will say I think of the concept of 'free will' as a religious invention to make people feel guilt with the purpose of controlling or manipulating people, so I'm biased against the idea... so maybe I'm not giving the most charitable interpretation of the concept.

In Stoveian fashion (as I understand it), I would say this is likewise a bad argument, because to have free will (in everyday terms) means that we are free to choose according to our will or according to our desires. We shouldn't be expected (in philosophical terms) to "get out of them" in order to remake the will as we desire. For then we would have no desires with which to choose how to remake the will. — Luke

I think the issue is that free will in everyday terms doesn't give you the kind of agency that is necessary for moral responsibility, so it doesn't really matter for the argument whether we have that kind of free will or not. Or in other words the issue I think he raises, is that you would in fact have to be able to choose your will to retain the idea of moral responsibility. I'm not sure I entirely agree with this, but I think that is the argument anyway.

Ok fair enough, we need not always be disagreeing.

The world is egocentric, that is, it revolves around your perception of existence. As an individual, I have no other possibility of perceiving the world besides my own, as you can only perceive the world through your Being. — Gus Lamarch

Yes, I think I could agree with that. I don't think anything I said is at odds with that. Is there some point I'm missing?

Right now I'm watching at my screen and there doesn't seem to be an entire universe attached to it... so
I'm not sure what to make of that statement. Maybe if you explain it, it might make some sense, or maybe not, I don't know.

I don't think anybody really believes that they are the only thing that exists, even if logic would show that is the only thing we can be certain of.

But even assuming for a moment that you are the only thing that exist, how would that you be free, in the sense that you can decide who you are? What is it that is deciding who you are, if there is no pre-existing you that has already has some content, that is already defined to some extend?

What might this <1% of free will look like? Let's look at this theoretical situation: you're faced with deciding between two choices. All of the forces that would make you want either choice are absolutely equal. Would you be unable to choose? If you were able to choose, would that be the sliver of free will or would that just be randomness? Is randomness even possible? — A Ree Zen

No it would be "(another part of)will" deciding to chose, because you don't like indecision for instance.

We decide, "we" are "our will"... but we do not decide what our will is.

If it's will it's not free, if it's free it's not will. The concept doesn't make sense.

Right, there's certainly some self-serving going on too.

Still I can't help but think there is something more to it. Take the protest against wearing masks for instance. I have to wear a mask as soon as I leave my house, and I don't feel that it impacts my 'quality of life' in any meaningful way... and find it hard to believe that it would bother other people that much. So why is it that something that innocuous would be met with that much protest, especially considering what is at stake? It seems as if even the slightest concession to some collective goal is to much to ask. One might point to ideologies that put an emphasis on individual liberties, and look for an explanation in people wanting to rationalize their ideologically inspired beliefs. But that seems to be merely pushing the question a bit further to why do these ideologies find so much support in the first place, especially when faced with a world that clearly demands collective action on a number of levels.

Anyway, you're right that this does not bode well for solving the climate crisis. Question is what would be a solution, if there is any? I don't think the solution is more information about the end times, like this type of OP seem to assume, because as I said, it seems more a matter of not wanting to believe (for whatever reason), than a matter of ignorance, incorrect information or stupidity.

Yes there is a difference if you look at it from the perspective of being true or sensible or whatever... all I'm saying is that I don't think that is what motivates those people holding those ideas. They want to be defiant (because the feel they have been lied to), those beliefs are just a rationalisation or post hoc justification for their defiance.

Kenosha Kid, I'd like to add to that, that while the idea itself from the example you gave may be stupid, I can understand the general sentiment behind it. People have been lied to continuously in order to get them to sacrifice for the greater good, only to learn that the greater good usually meant some select group.

So rather than stupidity, it seem to me it's more a case of wilful defiance. There is no trust whatsoever in what authorities say, and a sense of living in a world that is only out to get you... which has led to a deep cynicism and instinctive reactions to try to repel manipulation.

This is I think maybe the biggest problem we have, because it leads to a lack of collective agency.... and without that you can't even begin to try to implement any sort of societal change.

Except that's not what happens in any economy anywhere. Assuming the majority of business owners cast aside all ethical considerations in the operation of their businesses (which they don't), they cannot expect to disregard the multitude of formal government regulations that exist in every country without negative repercussion. — Hanover

But they (multinationals anyway) do to some extend, by moving (parts of) their business to countries that have the most favorable regime for a particular part of their business. Which leads countries to compete among eachother to offer the best conditions. You see, it's not as if business are really 'subject' to some democratic legal order anymore, they now float somewhere over and across countries and set the rules to some extend by exploiting competition between nations for their business. That's the big change with open borders and globalization.

Capitalism is all about profit-maximization.
— jorndoe
And hence it's not an all encompassing ideology about everything, as it's opponents desperately try to portray it. — ssu

No it's not, but it does seem to determine a lot of policy, be it via lobbying or via politicians having internalized a lot of it as an ideology.

So the problem is not necessarily with capitalism itself, but with the fact that there doesn't seem to be some larger value-frame that is strong and independent enough to resist its attempts to influence.

The shop-owners and blacksmiths have taken over the empty castle.

Thanks for that... no time to reply right now, I have to get some sleep. But I got to say, I like your perspective on things.

Far better is simply to have so much investment on renewables that they actually are cheaper than oil. That's the real death knell for fossil fuels. — ssu

Yeah, I mean I have no problem with investing heavily in renewables, but that wouldn't even be necessary if real costs where taking into account. Or that's what I would think in theory. Someone will have to pay the costs eventually... So longterm it would seem like a more effective solution that is more generally applicable, then constant ad hoc subsidising because prices fail to take some costs into account.

Motivated by an insane logic. Same logic that burns crops while millions of people starve. — JerseyFlight

Bit of a pedantic remark, but the logic is actually quite straightforward and laser-focussed on a certain goal. There's nothing wrong with their logic, it's just that they only have a very limited conception of value.

And because the price of oil is currently too low, when the economy recovers supply won't be able to meet demand and the price will slingshot high. — praxis

Not necessarily slingshot if there are a lot of reserves, and if the economy doesn't fully recover right away... but eventually one would think so yes.

Incorporation is moral hazard.

Cost to environments should be taken into account so that it becomes more expensive. Markets seem to fail to do that, so they should be corrected. Is that about right? And if so, what is it that's holding this kind of correction back. Corporate lobbying, geopolitical interests... or even just that is difficult practically speaking to do something like that?

in case the context isn't clear, awareness of how racism works requires an understanding of race and its categories. It just isn't plausible that stopping being aware of race is going to address systemic racism, precisely it requires a critical awareness of race. — fdrake

Awareness of race isn't going to address systemic racism either it seems to me, at least not on it's own. It's interesting you bring up the UK and compliment the US on it's awareness of the problem, because it isn't entirely clear to me that black people are better off in the US compared to the UK.

It's a bit of catch-22, right? The categories that are created are the origin of the problem, and then you have to take them into account because they have created a reality that you want to change. But in doing so you risk reinforcing made-up categories that tend to cause inequities by virtue of them existing. Then again they already exist, so it probably doesn't make all that much of a difference.

Still the root of the problem is the existence of the categories it seems. Apparently game-theoretic models predict these kind of inequities 'naturally' arising between separate identified social groups. I don't know how solid and applicable these models really are, I'm no expert, but it does intuitively makes perfect sense to me that this would be the case, especially if one group is a minority. And so if you can't do away with them, it's always going to be a bit of an uphill battle.

But maybe - if I'm allowed to make abstraction from the real world problem for a second - that is the more philosophical take-away from all of this.... that inequalities will arise between identified social groups no matter if there is overt or active racial discrimination or not (and there certainly is that too). And so we need something to correct for that... I'm not entirely sure what kinda of solution would do the trick though.

I would argue that while some people do this, they would be the people who are seeking status for itself. There are people who do such things without regards to status, and have had such status placed on them by society. It is the later who are the true saints and ascetics, while I would argue the former are pretenders. — Philosophim

I think they are all pretenders... if you look closely enough. Or if they are not, they will in some way have integrated the fact that they are also human in that way, and have some kind of ironic/playful relation to it.

No, I agree by and large.

What interests me most is the question what are we going to do with this given.

Nietzsche for instance points out that even asceticism or saints are ultimately also an attempt to gain status... that is to say, denying that you succumb to these human all to human drives, is itself an expression of it, albeit a more perverted one.

So, if we accept there is no escaping it, what are some healthy ways of dealing with it.... by channeling or sublimating it in less harmful ways, via art? I think that is an open question...

Can't say that I blame you.

Weird like me. I used to abhor politics. I thought that all politicians lie and will say whatever they need to say to get elected. I used to flippantly dismiss any campaign promises, because they never seemed to be kept. I believed for a very long time that my vote did not matter. What that candidate campaigned on and/or said did not really matter. Etc. I do not believe much differently now.

Political speech is supposed to elicit a response. That is it's very purpose. Generally speaking, a citizen's response is supposed to be to vote for the candidate that the citizen thinks will do what needs to be done to improve the nation, including that particular person's life and/or livelihood. Since the advent of cable 'news' channels(early eighties?), there have been concerted attempts to change the way American society thinks about the societal problems America is faced with. Mainly, what those problems are. Social media has only multiplied this.

I still do not like politics. The reason I've decided to become more active is because I just want the problems to be identified, and unfortunately America's partisan system has failed horribly as it is. That's another matter altogether and an entire subject matter in and of itself. Systemic racism is but one of those problems. Division of America is another, related issue, that is intentional and helps perpetuate the system's subsistence. — creativesoul

I get and can respect where you're coming from, but I went the other way. I used to believe in politics more, but have become progressively more distrusting of it since I had to deal with politicians professionally on a regular basis.

In the end I think my efforts to make a difference via politics would be largely wasted. I'd be just one more of a multitude of voices trying to out-scream eachother for that little bit of political influence. In short, I think I can have more of a positive effect if I focus on other things non-political.

It opens the door for otherwise unknowing and/or unaware white people to much better understand the extent of the problems. It sheds light upon the otherwise unknown reality. It leads to empathy where there could be none prior. It gets their attention considerably more than just saying that we have a racial discrimination problem...

... wouldn't ya say? — creativesoul

Let's just say I don't like politics, and it has adverse effect on me when people try to infuse their language so as to elicit some effect from me. Maybe I'm weird.

I'm not talking about that sentence, although I do think the way I said it is more clear, but it's about the concept of white privilege. This is already an explanation you have to give for white privilege.

It opens the door for otherwise unknowing and/or unaware white people to much better understand the extent of the problems. It sheds light upon the otherwise unknown reality. It leads to empathy where there could be none prior. It gets their attention considerably more than just saying that we have a racial discrimination problem...

... wouldn't ya say? — creativesoul

I dunno, I think different people will react differently, as is evident from these threads I think. Some will maybe react in that way, some will be offended, others will just misunderstand it... I think it's hard to say what the effect will be and if it will be a good one. I generally prefer just plainly stating what is going on, it think clarity has it own merits. For one, it's harder to deny that there is a problem if it's crystal clear...

The benefit of being white in America is the immunity and/or exemption from being injured because one is not. — creativesoul

Don't you think this is very convoluted way of talking? Why not just say that the problem is that non-whites are being discriminated and oppressed?

You know, it does kinda raise the question why one goes through all the trouble of framing it in that way if there is a more simple and straightforward way of phrasing it.

I think you know that's not how it's used. It's not just about the law, though there absolutely is a component of privilege associated with the law; apartheid, Jim Crow, the Windrush scandal... Another aspect - unwarranted police violence splits along racial lines, and it's almost impossible to prosecute them successfully for it - by design. — fdrake

Yes I know privilege is not used only to refer to the law, it wasn't my intention to imply that, though I can see you could interpret what I wrote in that way, I could have been more clear. The important part is that it's a (positive) exception for an individual or small group to some kind of norm, legal or otherwise.

Although some whites no doubt have privileges in that sense, that's not really what we mean with the concept 'white privilege'. What I think the concept seeks to point to mostly, is discrimination of other groups... i.e. (negative) exceptions to the norm for non-white groups.

You might argue that this is essentially the same, because in the effects a negative exception for one group ultimately also amounts to a positive exception for another group. But I don't think that argument really holds up, the fact that some things have similar effects doesn't imply they have the same meaning.

And I think the difference in meaning matters, among other things for how we are going handle the problem. You typically revoke or take away privileges whereas you try to prevent and forbid discrimination etc... I don't think it makes much sense to say for instance that we should revoke the privilege of "freedom from oppression".

It's just confusing to speak about it in this way. It's hard enough as it is without these subtle shifts in meaning for political or moral purposes.

↪ChatteringMonkey

So the concept of privilege isn't contrary to any of your experiences. You simply feel it is patronising. — fdrake

The thing you are looking to describe with the concept privilege is not contrary to my experience. The concept however don't correspond with the thing that your are looking to describe. And yes, it does feel patronizing that you seem to think that this slight of hand with the meaning of the concept is necessary for me to adjust my behaviour.

Can't you see that this is the same mechanism that religions use to indoctrinate people... because they are stupid and can't be trusted to make up their own minds?
— ChatteringMonkey

So focus on the facts: do you find anything factually wrong with what material conditions accounts using the concept seeks to highlight? Privileges of able body and mind, race+ethnicity, income, gender... — fdrake

No, as I said above, I don't disagree that the phenomenon that your are looking describe is a thing. I just don't agree with the terminology being used.

but because it assumes that i'm in need of moral instruction in the first place
— ChatteringMonkey

I'm sorry that the idea that other people may be able to teach you things that have a shot of making the world, and you, better offends you so much. Are we so different that you only believe what you believe based on reason and no sentiment is involved? I doubt it, we are talking about your personal feelings of offence, not about the realities associated with privilege. — fdrake

Yeah I don't exactly come here to receive moral instruction, but to have conversations with people about all things broadly philosophical. And ideally I can learn some things from that, yes... but is it that unreasonable to expect that we let people decide for themselves on a philosophy board?

My dictionary has 'privilege' meaning

an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
— Cambridge

a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor
— Merriam-Webster

I'm struggling to see how it is so obvious that its use in 'white privilege' is "just not what word means". Its meaning seems quite congruent to me, it's saying that freedom from certain types of oppression and restriction, the opening of certain opportunities is an advantage which white people have.

Being able to go about one's daily business with a lower chance of being arrested or shot by your own police force in certain parts of America is an advantage afforded to white people simply because they're white is it not?

That's right there in the dictionary definition. I'm not sure what your objection on semantic grounds is. — Isaac

You're going from 'advantage', 'right', 'favour' in the definitions to 'freedom from oppression' in your description, how is that not a shift in meaning?

Anyway the meaning of the word becomes quite clear if you look at its etymology, privi lege... private law. A law is generally applicable to everybody without exception. Privi leges then are private laws or rights that specifically only apply to certain individuals or small groups. The majority of whites don't have privileges in that sense... so it's just not accurate to say they do.

Moral instruction can be distasteful when the values+perspectives attempting to be imputed go against something in you, yeah. Which of your experiences does the concept of "privilege" go against? — fdrake

It's just not what word means, like we know what the word table means and when and where it is applicable. This has nothing to do with morality.

And no this kind of moral instruction is distasteful, not because it goes against something in me, but because it assumes that i'm in need of moral instruction in the first place... and more importantly because of the way one thinks it should be instructed, by manipulating the meaning of words. Or perhaps more specifically, the context is framed in such a way so that the desired moral behavior naturally follows.

Can't you see that this is the same mechanism that religions use to indoctrinate people... because they are stupid and can't be trusted to make up their own minds?

In context, what have you decided? — fdrake

It doesn't matter what I have decided for the point that was being discussed.

The point is that words are being used in a way that is not typical so as to elicit the correct moral response. I'd rather have an accurate description and let people make up their own minds, that is all.

It offends me, not because I can't handle the label privileged put on me, but because it is deemed necessary to spoonfeed me the correct behaviour by manipulating the meaning of words.... it insults my intelligence.

To add to that, it's also offending to constantly be told what it is you are offended about, even after explicitly stating that that is not the case.... as if your self-reported experience doesn't matter because you have to be some self-deluding idiot that can only be saying these things to justify his abject moral character.

Does that seem like a fair complaint to you?

Yeah, its basically saying that you can't be trusted to make up your own mind.

How can you tell if someone who extremely dislikes the concept of white privilege is doing so for system justification/self palliative reasons or not? I'm not saying don't be critical of it, I'm saying that the very idea inspires so much vitriol in some people and pages and pages of text. Often, after the pages and pages the person who says they hate the concept of white privilege actually agrees with all of the substantive content it criticises, but feels either personally attacked by it or that (generic white person) will be turned off by it. Projecting personal discomfort onto the absent other, maybe. Regardless, they dislike the present because of the package. Complicity should never feel comfortable, and self flagellating doesn't make any difference.

I've got a personal wager that people who get super animated about it being a hard sell to some white people to begin with more often than not are duckspeaking system justification in an academic dialect. But that's neither here not there I suppose. — fdrake

Perhaps, but belief it or not, some people are actually concerned with precision in the words they use. Like, don't try to convince me by manipulating the meaning of words, just give me accurate facts and let me decide.

Actually I think I would be much better off working for something outside the realm of science altogether. At least there, all of this is par for the course. Humanity as of now is incapable of creating a purely scientific environment. — Seth72

I struggle to say something helpful about this, because there always seem to be trade-offs. But I suppose if you are the kind of person that wants things to advance, that wants to have a sense of actually working together towards a common goal, science and the larger public sector can be frustrating to no end. Some, some mind you, companies in the private sector might be a better bet then because there does seem to more unity in direction there.