Thank you, Maw ~ I do enjoy some country when dealing with my feelings. :heart: Thank you for knowing there is a side to me that is soft and loving ~ It's hard to feel like I am but I will rise...in time.. to be a better me. :pray:

The Maverick passed off into tonight's gorgeous sunset, in one of the most beautiful places on Earth. The place I was married and I too, when the time comes, wish to be fortunate enough to cease living, surrounded by family and friends.
There is a calm energy on the Arizona winds tonight, as every wind chime for miles announce his being whole again, no longer in pain on this realm.
John McCain's life was always about serving our country in any way possible and for that dedication, I am forever grateful. Very few men have lived the breadth of life the Maverick did.
So I raise my glass to the setting sun and wish him the Happiest of Trails~

You Should Have Seen It Color

@Evil
Good day Evil.

My current class room and shelter for the night...

Might be time to batten down the hatches.

If an elderly human being has dementia (entailing distortions, then loss, of autobiographical memory), their social identity changes, but their personal identity (heritable attributes) remains essentially unchanged.

The self and person schemata of the individual with dementia may be modified initially, but ultimately they are lost. And the person schema of their family members and acquaintances would be accommodated (modified) or assimilated (extended), resulting in a change of social identity for the afflicted individual. But self (combined personal and social) identity is not lost unless a human being is no longer recognised by one's self and others. — Galuchat

You have a really good understanding about what I was asking and I appreciate you taking the time for such a thoughtful response. You have identified what I have witnessed in my family that has a strong history with Alzheimer's including early onset. As the elderly lose their personhood, it is easier to understand, for they have lived a full life, along with all the other platitudes that serve us through out the journey to their end of life. Early onset, early loss of personhood feels much more painful because you see a younger person disappear slowly before your eyes. That is my experience anyway.

So, given that identity loss is a possibility, should personhood be defined in terms of social identity, or only in terms of human nature (i.e., genetic predisposition)? — Galuchat

Let me ponder this part a little more because in some ways it feels like we would be stealing the very identity from the elderly person even though logic suggests that their identity is already lost, so there would be nothing to steal....

I would prefer not to answer personal questions on the grounds of avoiding self incrimination. — All sight

:cool: I totally understand.

I and a number of other posters have been engaging you for years and I've seen a gradual shift to the right and into racist positions. — Benkei

I have very much enjoyed engaging with forum members in here as well as over at PF for over the last decade. I have had a gradual shift and am still in motion about many areas of philosophy and how that impacts change in my life. My words and thoughts are not always pretty but I do speak with personal honesty and I am sorry if that honesty hurts but if I stop and start playing games like go along with the crowd, I am faking it and that isn't me.

The first philosophical movement within me started with Tobias on the idea of "proportionality" and the response the USA had to 9/11. It was and still is a very hard thing to talk about but I was able to apply what Tobias suggested and have taken that tool - proportionality - and put it in my 'tool bag' that helps me with the balance of life and the curve balls that I have fielded and those still to come. In this very thread, my position has changed about the "Zero Tolerance" policy from being a necessity that was being dictated by laws that were on the books, to understanding what impact it was having and how we could change it. Obviously that was lost on you but that is okay because the introspect was into me and it wasn't lost on me.

You haven't been paying attention. Within a few weeks of the discussion on the separation, which was appaling (your reply : but immigration!) you come up with this canard about Debbie in the Trump thread. Why? Because racist bullshit is supposed to excuse the terrible policies Trump passes? To excuse his racism? "Oh look, here's one actual criminal immigrant so trump is right calling them rapists." I really don't know what it's doing in this thread. — Benkei

The reason I have posted anything about Trump on this thread is because it is the thread I have been participating in and if you read back the thousand something posts, you will see that every Trump supporter has been run off. Why? Even if you believe that everything Trump does is fucked up, that doesn't mean everyone does or has to agree with you.

You're playing the same game of distraction as the current administration. Where is your Fucking outrage about Trump his cronies 'crimes? If you're so concerned about crime you ought to be consistent. The fact that you're not is because it isn't about crime for you but about immigration. So well done, you misuse a tragedy to argue a case for further restrictions that isn't supported by the evidence. — Benkei

Benkei, even when I talk to the most staunch opposition to Trump within my group of family and friends, we are able to converse about it without feeling the need to use personal profanity attacks on one another. "Where is your Fucking outrage about Trump and his cronies 'crimes'? I have my personal issues with Trump but what his friends did is not one of them. I don't apologize for not being outraged about that one point but I must choose my battles. I won't participate in feigned outrage.

Now, you can take me calling your casual racism out seriously and reflect on your position with Debbie, Trump in general, the N-word he might have said and whether you'd vote for him again if he said it and how you reacted to the inhumane treatment by the US government of immigrants by separating children (including babies) from their parents or you can play the victim for being labelled a racist. — Benkei

I am not a victim nor am I a racist. But I can tell you that the divide you see actively happening here, between two people who have been friends for almost a decade? That is the cut that is dividing much of our country. It indeed is about policy but it is also about looking for a solution, together, not bashing and labeling each other. I would think our friendship could rise above the fray of politics but I am not the one seeing you in a dark, racist manner.

You might not like the label but it's entirely apt. The fact you keep coming back with these alt-right talking points despite the opportunity here to learn the facts and your inability to do so is what betrays the underlying bias. — Benkei

I kept returning because I believe in our country and this thread becomes an echo chamber without a single voice about what might be the other side of the perspective you are seeing.

I'm pointing it out in the clearest term possible by using a label : tiff you've become a racist. You weren't one 5 years ago but you are one now. People change and I'm telling you, you haven't changed for the better. — Benkei

I Thank you for your honesty.

:rofl:

Damn that was an inspirational post! Such a positive outlook on life! I think I will carry it with me today and spread it as best I can!

@All sight
Welcome to The Philosophy Forum!

People trying to find themselves. Everyone around us is constantly telling us, but they're all wrong, aren't they? The pain of objectification. The fear of discovery. Better to submerge ourselves in the depths, holding the breath until it leaves us completely, and we die down there, all alone.

Might I ask you how you found The Philosophy Forum?
And are there more of you where you came from?
One more question:
You don't happen to fight fires for a living do you?
:starstruck:

American Pie - Don McLean

But that is also a self-fulfilling prophecy. Good things happen when people are optimistic. — Hanover

Like attracts like and if you are optimistic, you can get others working in a positive mindset and good things do happen. So do bad things but I personally think the good outweighs the bad.

From where I'm standing looking at you all I have is your denial you're a racist and your dislike of being labelled as one but if it walks and talks like a duck...

If you don't like being called a racist, then don't act like one. Sorry Tiff, but it has to be said and it's probably better you hear it from me than a random stranger. — Benkei

Yes, hearing a dear friend of mine, who has truly known me through the years, call me a "racist" makes it "better".

If we can drop the labels, I am willing to engage if you wish...


Did you read the links contained within your link above? :brow:

Immigration and Crime
Assessing a Conflicted Issue
By Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan on November 18, 2009

Related Publications

Download a pdf of this Backgrounder


Steven A. Camarota is Director of Research and Jessica M. Vaughan is Director of Policy Studies at the Center for Immigration Studies.


Intro: This study examines academic and government research on the question of immigrant crime. New government data indicate that immigrants have high rates of criminality, while older academic research found low rates. The overall picture of immigrants and crime remains confused due to a lack of good data and contrary information. However, the newer government data indicate that there are legitimate public safety reasons for local law enforcement to work with federal immigration authorities.

Conclusion: In our view, poor data quality and conflicting evidence mean that neither of these views is well supported. Given the limitations of the data available, it is simply not possible to draw a clear conclusion about immigrants and crime.

If it is far less statistically likely for an undocumented immigrant to commit homicide, relative to an American citizen, then it follows that the paroxysm over immigration including profiling, deportation, and building a dumbass border wall is, undeniably, a racist response. — Maw

Maw, you can work the numbers all you want but your "statistics" do not include nor will it ever include the true number of illegal immigrants because they do NOT report. Why is that such a hard concept to understand?

Think of it this way: you and I are under the legal drinking age of the state we reside in and we go to a party. At this party there is underage drinking, loud music, lots of cars, a couple of Kegs in the back, dancing and libations when a fight breaks out between two people in the yard and the cops are called. When that knock on the door comes along with the red and blue lights, where are you headed? Regardless of whether or not you or I were involved in the fight, now that the law is at the threshold of the residence where you and I are at but do not live, we are headed where?

Keeping in mind that both of us are well aware that we are not of legal drinking age but we are at a location where alcohol is being consumed illegally. Getting busted by the law for underage drinking is HUGE for those of us that are still underage. It usually means an attorney and a penalty/delay against gaining the chance of getting a drivers license.

Are you going to remain at the party and wait for the police to ask you for your ID? Or are you going to be fleeing the party like the majority of the other underage attendees?

And yes, one can easily find responses more radical than merely "bettering current immigration laws" on white nationalist media such as Fox News, Breitbart, and other vapid Right-Wing publications. — Maw

And conversely there are pundits out there spouting ending ICE and having a nation without borders but I am not suggesting that is what your ultimate solution is for bettering our immigration laws.

By the way, Tiff, the locking doors analogy implies that immigrants (from South America in particular) are merely here to "steal" from us, which is racist. — Maw

(I bolded your "immigrants" because I want to be sure that we are still talking about illegal immigrants because I have not a single issue if someone from another country is here legally. My Great Grands were immigrants but they had to wait and come here to the USA legally.)

I think that it is a HUGE, unfair leap, to suggest that by having better control over our nations borders implies that illegal immigrants "are here to merely steal from us".

Maw, I know people on both sides of this, both people here legally and illegally. I know that the illegal immigrant within our group of friends feels intimidated by the way our country treats the undocumented immigrants, yet she remains. She knows what it is like to only be able to work for cash at a Mexican Party store and works on beautiful dresses for young ladies Quinceañera's and makes a decent wage doing it. Of course that is paid in cash, no taxes submitted, though likely collected from her. She has to walk to work because driving is too risky in getting caught being here illegally. For a year when things really got heated here in AZ, with Sheriff Joe instructing our County Police force to profile (continuing 3 years beyond when a Judge ordered him to STOP the profiling) looking for illegal immigrants, she didn't come out of his house.

I ask her if she wishes she were American and she says no, she eventually wants to return to Mexico. When I ask her why she doesn't marry our friend in the group who is an American, the man she loves, the man she has lived with the last 15 years, the man who paid for her safe transport 6k, from central Mexico to a bus station in downtown Phoenix. She says no, she doesn't wish to marry our friend and for what it is worth, he does not wish to marry her for a multitude of reasons.

So their plan, in the event that she is ever picked up as being here as an illegal immigrant, is to deny knowing she is here illegally and allow the deportation proceedings to begin. She would likely be flown back to Central Mexico where her family lives. Our male friend who would deny knowing she was here illegally would not be charged, still maintain his USA citizenship and move to Mexico to join her and "retire" in Mexico while retaining his SS benefits for when he retires.

If there is any interest as to why he brought her up here illegally so many years ago, it is because our friend met her on a trip to Mexico and found out her boyfriend was physically beating her and her family was not stepping in, so he sent for her.

Back to the stats: if it turns out that our male friend is beating her, do you think she is going to report him to the authorities?

The focus on the fact that Mollie Tibbets was killed by an undocumented immigrant, and the calls for expanded deportation, profiling, etc. is unabashed racism, pure and simple. — Maw

How is it racism? :brow:
No one is calling for "expanded deportation" but rather better our immigration laws to bring people into our country based on merit and as a political asylum for those that seek asylum.
If we could control the illegal immigration, we would have more room for those who are seeking asylum.

Maw, do you lock your door at night?

If so, why is it so absurd to have a lock on the door (the border wall) to enter this country and make people be vetted before being allowed in?

Since you have not addressed the system that works E-Verify, let me remind you that all we need is participation, not resistance. This system is not in R&D, it is up and running and working when people participate.

I understand the outrage of Mollie Tibbets family, against people making their tragic loss, a jumping off point to express the need for border control, as if it might have helped save their daughter.

I wish I could get people to understand just how pervasive living illegally in the USA is, how Social services are offered to all and there are no questions about their legal status.
E-VERIFY system is an AMAZING system when everybody plays by the rules.

Here in AZ E-VERIFY signs are in every window of anyone hiring. But this monster had a Social Security # which is not surprising as you can get a fake one here on the streets for less than a grand and then they are home free, for a while.

But in the heartland of America, where they don't lock their front doors? I just don't see employers in Iowa, Illinois, Wisconsin, New York, South Dakota ect. running an applicants information through the E-VERIFY system when they were presented with citizen documentation that satisfy the needs of legal resident employment.

Which brings up the issue of profiling because as an AZ resident, I have never been asked if I would qualify through the E-VERIFY system by a future employer but I am a middle aged white woman. If I was darker in skin tone, about 15 years younger and a man, I imagine I would be asked if I would qualify through the E-VERIFY system before being hired. The penalty for employing an illegal immigrant is nothing to screw around with. They are serious about it here in Arizona but as you can see by the map enclosed not every state requires an E-VERIFY verification.

Is this light at the end of the tunnel? — tim wood

Oh yes, there is a light at the end of the tunnel where people who despise Trump, are dug in resisting everything. But his supporters are not in that tunnel and that light? That light is shinning from Trump's second term as President. :sparkle:

I really think it's a matter of self-moderation on the part of participants and the poster, in regards to posting help with homework. I don't think a blanket ban on those topics is useful here. — Posty McPostface

I agree with a self moderation of a Homework section. I can't see it getting out of control when people are asking questions.

But to be a philosopher is to be already dead. The image of death is already dead; thought is not life. — unenlightened

Yes but we (I believe you and I were on the same topic) came to the conclusion years ago that death is best described as the ceasing to exist.

How do I square the circle that "to be a philosopher is to already be dead"? When an image of death can portray the ceasing of living? I am not so sure that is possible but I am open to options...

Does a person's identity change when they suffer from a brain disease (e.g., dementia) or a mental illness (e.g., dissociative identity disorder)? — Galuchat

That is a question that I am pondering as well... :up:

Actually, there are two #Metoo threads, and the administration (me) got them mixed up. Your one is in politics and current affairs now. — Baden

No worries, Thank you for the movement of the thread.

I did a little experiment. Some might be aware of this already, but it appears that it is possible to move a thread from one category to another IF one is the thread starter. Just edit the OP, and choose a different category. I moved an old thread I started into The Lounge to see if it was possible. Maybe that is helpful now that there is a larger difference between Lounge and Philosophical threads — 0 thru 9

I appreciate your letting me know how to go about it myself, Thank you.

OK, I think it can find a place for it. — Baden

Since I was working with an administrator about the movement of the #MeToo thread and it still remains in the Lounge, I have to go with the idea that it is in where the administration believes it properly should be.
I disagree with the decision to leave such an important topic in the Lounge but I made the request and that is the best I can do. :up:

I think what makes up a "person" is much more than the physical to me. Thoughts, experiences, trying, failing, loving, grieving, my life experiences make up who I am as "Tiff" and it is from those experiences that I draw responses from, when I interact with life.

As a person we change over time and circumstance. What served us years ago, no longer is of use to us. People we used to love, might not be worthy of that respect anymore and that may have caused us to harden a bit, make those walls around our heart just a little bit taller, a little bit stronger than those we first erected out of Balsawood. That is until we learn that the walls that keep the pain of life out, also keeps the love of life out as well.

All of those things and more make up who we are as a person, beyond the science of our genes or in concert with our genes but it definitely makes up what I would consider our "consciousness".

But then I wonder what happens to that person, when their consciousness is no longer accessible to them? Do they become less of a "person"?

Oh, congratulations, Tiff! :party: — Baden

Thank You! :flower:

Thank you for the support. So far we have had to create a short video introducing ourselves to the group. I have been watching what others are saying and responding positively but I can see that I am the oldest in the class. That might work in my benefit, as years of life at the "School Of Hard Knocks" has to be worth something right? I couldn't have survived without learning something...

@Sir2u Do you really believe that someone looking for help with their homework is "cheating"? Because if you do than maybe others will think that about me when I ask for help... :yikes:

We could also start a discussion in the ethics section called "Is it ok to help someone cheat." — Hanover

That would make a great thread!

We only had a specific logic homework help section at old PF.Help on other types of homework wasn't allowed. — Baden

Was it just logic or am I mistaken in thinking we had a Math help thread as well?

We do have the learning centre including the questions category, but as Hanover implied a general homework category is likely to be abused. — Baden

It is easy to spot through the wording of their question if they are asking you to help them cheat or that they really don't grasp an idea. I am speaking of the later rather than the former.

College students cheating, well I never. — Sir2u

@Sir2u as a teacher, what is your opinion about a Homework section?

Personally? My son has a picture in his room with this saying and I find a lot of 'wisdom' contained within it.

"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared."
- Buddha

Is it possible to set up a Homework section in the Lounge? I learned a lot for reading other members questions in the Homework section of PF and I know there are a few forum members that enjoy helping others.
Just a thought

I started school on Monday and the Professor seems like an awesome person. I looked him up on Rate my Professor. Between my both my boys, the report on rate my professors is surprisingly accurate both at the community level and the University level.

I came across this perspective on the USA's economy and it stop to make me think.
Am I really buying into bullshit that I just cannot see as such? It's possible, I am told that often among my fellow 'thinkers' here.

Yet without reading this my children are bright eyed enough, to not only see it as the lies this writer purposes but reason enough to leave the USA, to make their lives more stable.

I see the need to reinvent our purpose (the USA's) as a Nation among Nations but the Gen X'ers that I talk to are not easily persuaded and equate the USA to the Titanic and it is only a matter of time before she is fully underwater without hope of recovering her.

Am I rearranging the chaise lounges on the Titanic's deck and missing the chance to get into a life boat before she goes under?

My Great Grands came over from Europe, thru Ellis Island, because what they saw here from over there, was worth leaving everything behind. Maybe I am an eternal optimist but I have a hard time accepting that within 4 generations of my family, that somehow, someway, they have come to the conclusion that America and all she stands for is not worth fighting for.

Thanks, Tiff. Yes, if you could tell him. :smile: — Caldwell

Absolutely Caldwell! I will! :flower:

OK, I think it can find a place for it. — Baden

Baden, I appreciate all your efforts. Thank you.

They wouldn't appear on the default front page unless they were active anyway, Tiff, and #metoo isn't. Moving it will have no effect at the moment. — Baden

Thank you for the consideration.

I could be wrong but I don't think Tiff was talking about discussions that have been moved to the Lounge. Discussions are moved to the Lounge if that's where they fit. What's the problem? — jamalrob

jamalrob, I started my discussions in The Lounge, I don't know that any one of my threads has been moved. I am just asking for the consideration of the #MeToo discussion I started to be moved out of the lounge into a Philosophical category so it can be found if ever the topic comes up again.

Don't feel like your work has gone to waste. I too am saddened by removing many enjoyable threads to the lounge. But, as you neatly said, it is what it is, and I can still carry on. — Posty McPostface

Yeah, it is just shitty timing because I have really come to love the members of the community here. :broken:

All 11 discussions I have greatly enjoyed starting on TPF were created in The Lounge which no longer appear on the main page since all but one thread are community focused in nature. I have attempted to bring our community together through positive threads and although they are not dissecting the study of Philosophy, I would like to think at least one or two of my threads have had a positive impact on our community as a whole.

Having said that, it is what it is.
I will just kindly ask the administrations consideration, of finding a place for the #MeToo thread, to be moved in with the other Philosophy categories. If it is possible, I would appreciate it.

I've moved the Lounge up the categories list, so you don't have to scroll after selecting categories on mobile (or on PC to see the full sidebar). Does that help? — Baden

Yes, Thank you. It is a tremendous help when using a mobile.

So I shouldn't make jokes about Trump's organ being cut short? — Banno

Anything that will alleviate the tension would be bloody grand my friend

Can you quote the part of your post that explains that? — Baden

Yes, I think it would be more graceful to do so in private. Allow me to take care of reality for a couple days and I will get back to you and we can pow wow if you wish.

I think it could have been left open for another nine posts. — Banno

At least a light thread that wasn't so serious that inflective labels need be applied.

It was a perfect example of Banno taking the piss. — Baden

I thought you were listening to "members"...

But I still like the idea of making a single post, which leads to over 100 replies without further comment. — Banno

I know this goal of yours but I was refencing the actual content of the thread and it's closure.