How are people born with the 'right religion and knowledge of right and wrong'? I hear that you believe that but other then the teachings of your religion, what evidence do you have of this? Are you or have you ever been a parent? Nothing I've come across knowledge wise or experienced personally including as a parent has ever suggested the existence of a religion or knowledge of right or wrong from birth. Show me!

So you acknowledge my point, throw it back at me and somehow that address's it? From your reply, you were unable to grasp the full extent of what I was saying. Do I see you as you do, with your background, your culture, your experience? No, there is no way for me to see you in the exact way you do any more then you can for me. That is my whole point!

Ethics will always be based on the secular as it is the only way a person can view the world and the very concepts involved in morality. I've studied various religions, both eastern and western and study is exactly what was necessary to understand them. Do I understand Islam? No, I have not studied it. Is it possible for me to grasp the morality offered by Islam and the God featured within that religion without some form of study or education in it? No doubt there are some similar concepts to be found in its cannon but as a from of morality to live by, no. Not unless you want to entertain the concept of miracles. Some way to instantly understand all the history, background and complex concepts needed to successfully adhere to the moral code Islam presents.

The claim of this discussion is - that there is no secular basis for morality. I ask you outright now: Could you adhere to Islam principles of morality without the mental concepts you've obtained through exposure and study of its religious teachings? The very concepts that influence your every thought, personal judgment and could arguably be said to influence every choice you make? Could another individual (like me) with little to no exposure regarding Islam live by the Islamic code of morality without any further exposure or study of the same religious teachings?

Yes, looks like an interesting and informative read. Thank you for the reference

What confuses me is the amount of assumption present in anyone who not only accepts natural evolution as fact but assumes it is also correctly and wholly understood. If one questions this premise, the entire structure fails flat. Is it not just as big an assumption then if God or gods exist?

The key concept behind religion and moral code is a choice by the individual to accept them. Bit this decision is not a once off deal. Every relevant bit of data causes a reassessment and new decision.

Every decision to accept builds on the original belief, possibly strengthening and subtly changing it

More detailed, yes but never definitive except within the mind of the individual who chooses that a particular moral code is absolute. Belief that it comes from God is a supportive belief made by the individual. As you rightly point out, it can not be proven or dis-proven, just accepted or rejected as a concept

That's my point. If you put aside your morals for his, they'll be similar but not identical. Speaking in general it's easy to say 'do not steal'. But the practical application of those morals are much more complex and only the individual can 'act' based on those beliefs which is the true form of morals.

It's only recently, relatively speaking, that society has placed so much importance on crediting the original creator and avoiding plagiarism. It's possible Plato believed he was complementing Socrates in combining/ including his name.

The flaw with any religion or individual claiming a moral basis that applies to a group is obviously evident when you understand how a human experiences 'life'.

Your body gathers raw input through its senses which your subconscious translates into concepts using the knowledge and experience you have available. You are only aware of the end product, the subconciously translated concepts, not the raw input.

When you discuss Islam, you discuss your own personal understanding of it which is derived from fundamental aspects such as your society and family culture, your language and all sorts of experiences you've had. That knowledge is from where? Your teachers taught you based on their understanding which was taught to them by others and so on. The very religous texts your belief is based on was written in a culture which no longer exists in that exact form and is translated by other humans using their own understanding to decide the correct wording.

If you follow this to its inevitable conclusion, you end up in a place where each individual lives according to their current understanding of the universe and everything in it. No two individuals understanding of a religion or its moral code is going to be exactly the same. And that understanding is subject to change every second you experience life unless you go to great lengths to isolate yourself from anything new or different.

Hence why religions in general always include some form of isolation policy.