Well wouldnt God be evil if he denied free will to human beings as well?
Do we just chalk this up to the inherently nonsensical nature of omni-god or is there space for a more fair assessment than god being evil or evil?

Of course, a deity that is not omnibenevolent is akin to negligent sadist, or devil, and therefore not worthy of worship. — 180 Proof

I don’t see that…sadist? Because god is letting some bad things happen? So if you are omnipotent then you are either omnibenevolent or a sadist/devil?

And what then is the target of economic sanctions? — EugeneW

The economic structures of a country. While its true that can effect civilians, I wouldn't say civilians are the target.

Just because they have that in common doesn't equate them. Not differentiating between civilian and military personnel is a defining characteristics of neither economic sanctions nor terrorism.
Further, terrorism does distinguish between military and civilian targets. They specifically prioritize civilian targets over military ones.
For these reasons I cannot agree that economic sanctions are terrorism.

arner a :100: ? You come across as a genuine sociopath, 180. I'm done with you. Shit all over this thread if you want, you'll be getting no more attention from me — ToothyMaw

What they mean is mental illness, mostly schizophrenia, but often manifests itself with religious symbology and themes. I dont think they meant religiosity is a mental illness, nor saying religious people are mentally ill.
I mention it because “sociopath” seems a pretty drastic take on the comment.

Kicking and screaming, mostly against their will is the only way humans get moved forward. :wink:

I agree, if you dont understand fallacies you dont really understand how to not contradict yourself except in the most obvious ways. Especially in todays era of misinformation and lies, critical thinking and basic sense making skills are hugely important in navigating our modern world. Our education systems are archaic. New ideas like yours are whats needed. :ok:

I think thats a great idea. Alternates to standard education are getting more and more common. I think our current standards don’t give kids enough credit. They can handle more than just repetition and narrow subject matter.
Aside from ethics, what else do you think makes the cut from philosophy as invaluable education? I think there are definitely many parts of philosophy which are either useless or so esoteric they won’t land with most kids/people.

I appreciate your gracious response. Ill try not to let it go to my head. :wink:

I don't think so. You just need not to be a bad person. — Cuthbert

Rght, and you learn to not be a bad person by learning ethics. You aren’t disagreeing with me here.

100,000% it is specifically the fact that children are impressionable that induces the need for ethics. — Garrett Travers

I don’t think I can agree. Certainly children being impressionable means its a good time to teach ethics, but its a good time to teach them anything. Little sponges they are. I wouldn't called that inducement though. What induces need for ethics being taught to kids is simply the tragic absence of ethics in the adult world.
If by inducing the need for ethics you mean you are worried about kids being taught wrong things then I think ultimately we go back to square one again…you need to teach the good things as early as possible. This touches on my earlier mention of teaching critical thinking and logic even before ethics…what better way to ensure ethical behaviour than teaching the skills to tell the difference on your own?

I would remember that children and young people are amazingly observant, impressionable and very alive to hypocrisy. The best education is to model good behaviour. If — Cuthbert

Right, but in order to be a model of good behaviour one needs to be educated in ethics. Perhaps you disagree but I find such models of good behaviour to be quite rare, bringing us back to square one with a necessity to teach ethics in school…and as early as possible imo.

Thats a good start I suppose, but ethics are sorely lacking in the average person sonI can’t help but want more. I think its just as important as any other school subject.

Not just high school. If they are old enough to learn math and spelling they are old enough to learn about morality and ethics. I would add or even supersede ethics with critical thinking and logic.
I would prefer to see these subjects be treated like math and science, with dedicated classes and teachers. Navigating ethics requires good critical thinking and logic skills though so I would actually start with that as a base.

What would your own ideal education in ethics look like in elementary and high school?

You have your head way up your own ass if you think cancel culture doesnt exist. You simply can’t have looked into it in any depth.
Congratulations on being fooled by left wing framing.

I don't see the basis for your claim. If God is the creator, then God had real existence, prior to your existence, just like your grandmother had real existence prior to your existence. — Metaphysician Undercover

Sure, “if”. You would have to show the previous existence of god or a creator. Not so with dear grandma, whose previous existence is not in question.
Since you havent shown god to have previous existence then its fallacious to use this grandma analogy to make your point/case.

The relationship with you grandmother already existed. The same cannot be said about god. The relationship with god doesnt have a previous existence upon which to base it like dear old grandma does. Thats the key, that you cannot have a relationship with something that never existed in the first place.

Pft. Not very imaginative.
You can also laugh AND tell them to go fuck themselves. Live a little Banno.

Well yes, exactly the point being made. Banno is saying there isnt any.

That is also in relation to others. All of your examples are.

When I look at your brain I see a grey, squishy mass. Is your mind a grey, squishy mass? Are you saying the entirety of your experience of the world is just various quiverings of a grey squishy mass? — Harry Hindu

Yes, with your naked eye.

Why can't you see a mind when you look at a brain, like you can see walking when looking at legs? — Harry Hindu

You can, just not with your naked eye. Brain scans etc with instruments of science.

I would argue the concept mind is not equivalent to the brain but to the entire body. No other entity, least of all parts of that entity, engage in any act of minding. Besides, what is a brain absent the blood or oxygen or energy or support from the rest of the organism? — NOS4A2

I share the view that its more accurate to say body rather than brain, since the brain is affected by the rest of your body. We know that the foods and other things your body processes effect your mind/thoughts. I read your stomach has almost as many neural connections as your brain does.
This is also the reason I don’t by the conventional philosophical free will arguments, like you dont have free will because the decisions are locked in before your aware of them. Sure, science shows us that but just because its happening outside your awareness or elsewhere in your body doesn't mean its not you doing it.
Agency isnt your conscious mind, its your whole body.

Well…both of those are better than mine. I guess Ill just go fuck myself :razz:

We could ask is the physical the starting point for mind? I am not saying that they are not, but I do wonder about this, especially in relation to philosophies of idealism, such as those of Berkeley. Are these outdated ideas? The exact same role of matter and mind, or which is primary seems to be essential within philosophy. Is it possible that it may go beyond an either/ or? What is mind and matter and how are the two differentiated in the first place? Is dualism is an issue here, although I am certainly not clear where mind and body end or merge, especially in the realms of emotions. — Jack Cummins

Ya I think its outdated. We have a lot of data now about how our minds are directly correlated to various parts of the brain. Its possible brain is where mind comes from but until we get new data that suggests otherwise I don’t see a basis to say otherwise.

I would say the opposite, the brain gives rise to the mind. The material gives rise to the immaterial. As the wood gives rise to the fire.
If we stick to the fire analogy, there is slightly more to it than just fire from wood. You need oxygen to feed the fire, and a spark to start it. What is the “oxygen” and “spark” for a mind? If we figure out when the mind comes online, perhaps the “spark” is somewhere around that time…being born maybe?
The “oxygen” might be the brains interaction with everything not brain like sensory organs or environmental influences.

To the extent that the wood is identical to the camp fire.

Jesus fucking christ! :roll:

"espousing: 1. adopt or support (a cause, belief, or way of life)." (Online dictionary.)“

It couldnt be more straightforward! He declared sexist belief, a belief he has adopted! Also is he not supportive of his own belief?!
Its simple, plain english. So for the love of Oprah and for the sake of baby jesus would you fucking morons quiet you stupid fingers and shut up about it already?!
I cant believe you idiots are STILL arguing about this.
So so dumb.

That definition of god strikes me as so open as to be completely useless. I do not understand how you can believe in something you cannot define. What is it you actually believe in? “God” is just an empty placeholder here, with no substance.

You're right. I should have said "we have no evidence that thoughts exist physically." So... then the question to ask you begs itself, "DingoJones, do all things, of the physical existence of which we have no physical evidence, exist as physical things? Must they necessarily exist as a physical thing? Why must we assume that they do exist in a physical manifestation in the physical world?" — god must be atheist

I think the answer is we do not know. There are things we once thought were not physical that we later learned were physical so judging by that trend we might expect everything to turn out to be physical but we dont know.

My approach is this: I calls them as I sees them. If there is no evidence of a thing, and there is no reasonable need to assume of that thing to exist, then I treat it as non-existent. There may be and are other approaches, but I am satisfied to have it my way. — god must be atheist

A good approach.

If gods decided to interact with us. Why or why not they do or don't I don't know. At present time, again, they never showed us any initiative to communicate -- that is, initiative, that I can believe. — god must be atheist

I suppose it depends on how you define god. Most concepts of god have god doing something that we should be able to detect and when we dont the approach you describe above seems best.

Thoughts exist, but not in the physical world. With any man-made instrument you can't point at or identify something physical, and know that "hey, now, that there thing is the physical manifestation of thought." — god must be atheist

I would say this is where it breaks down. You start with the conclusion that thoughts do not exist in physically but you havent established that. Just because we dont have man made instruments to measure something doesnt mean it doesnt exist physically. We know thoughts have something to do with chemicals and electrical pulses in the brain, that certain thoughts come from certain areas of the brain and that by damaging the brain in part or whole we can effect or stop thoughts in part or whole. These correlations between the physical brain and thoughts doesnt show that thoughts are physical but its fairly strongly implied I would say and that should at least establish we have no basis to conclude thoughts are not physical.

Extrapolating from this: maybe god exists, too, in the same functional way as thought and consciousness exist. God can be thought of as a temporarily created existence by the mind. — god must be atheist

Yes, a figment of imagination. :wink:
Even if god existed in some intangible way we would still be able to detect gods interactions with the physical in the same way that detect thoughts interacting with the physical.

:up:

I think its more specific than politics, its race. As you observed, even normally astute, academic types lose their shit as soon as someone says “black”. Fact after fact after fact unanswered, they just shift to a different attack vector and completely dismiss how they were just uncontroversially shown to be wrong. Its emotionally driven fantasy.
It would be nice to have a real discussion about any of it but as has been shown quite clearly in this thread you just can’t. You might say something that contradicts the dogmatic narrative and then there is no chance at an honest discussion.

I dont know who you're posting that video for, its not going to register to anyone who disagrees with it as has been clearly demonstrated on every other clear headed, rational offering from you and others on this topic.
The level of blind, dogmatic fantasy on display here is the worst Ive seen on on this forum. Lost cause Sushi, anyone who is thinking rationally on this topic already agrees with the video.

He means the facist covid policies (among others) and the racism of the Biden admin. How do you not know that as often as you interact with him?

Where are the thoughts coming from if not from yourself?
Wouldn't thoughts that come from your sub conscious or from biological processes (a fear response for example) elsewhere in your body still be “you”? In that way aren’t you simply making choices elsewhere than your conscious mind?

Well Banno’s point was that morality is about relations between life, precluding the logic you used there.

I read it. I disagree with that premise. That you cannot change how many people are stupid hasnt been established.
In the OP it states “education” in its current form. Agreed. Lets talk about changing the form? (Which I did state in my post, speaking of not reading things…)

I understand, Im not calling you down about offering this topic. Im not taking the step Clarke is where he jumps to conclusions about your position or character. I would have told him to fuck off too. Unfortunately I think there is some merit to the comparison he made, I just dont think you were suggestion concentration camps. Like I said though, there isnt much distance to get there from what youre suggesting.
If you’ll recall Ive always been someone who understood the thought experiment style topics you’ve introduced.
I find them interesting and useful, so please read my comments with that in mind.
Anyway, what about better education? Wouldn't that be the best way to stop people from being stupid? Not education in the sense of academia but teaching people the merits of living “smart” (still think its an odd set of definitions re smart/stupid but for the sake of discussion) so they understand its better to be constructive over destructive, to lift yourself and others up rather than down or as stepping stones to your own exaltation.

I get the concentration camp reference. What you are suggesting in the OP is pretty dangerous. I know you specifically said not imprisoning but seizing assets is the same kind of thing. Even if you have the best of intentions and under your guidance its somehow successful, the power to seize assets will be there to abuse. It will be abused.
It is a perfectly fair reference, concentration camps, because this kinda thinking is where all that shit starts. Judgement, anyones judgement, is fallible. It doesnt matter how smart one is (even by the bizarre criteria you’ve laid out for intelligent). When you put rules in place that are so vague its only going to lead to someone gaming that rule to abuse it.
Even by your definitions whats smart or stupid is way to nebulous. As sympathetic as I am to the idea that stupidity is destructive and largely unchecked by society I can’t agree that your suggestions would be a good solution. I mean the distance between your suggestion and the worst examples of fascism history offers us is pretty short. Think about it, you are selecting a certain group and denying them rights that others have. What could go wring right?
Can’t we just educate people better, and across a wider/more useful spectrum? (Like teaching critical thinking in elementary school).