My parents stuck together when it would have been better for my brother and me if they had gotten divorced. Or not? Who’s to say how things would have turned out? Maybe my dad would have gotten joint custody and been more abusive without my mother with him. Or not. My dad was religious. My mom is not. What does that say?

Like I said, I’m not intending to convert anyone. The OP asked what religion should do for us today. I answered that. And, no, I don’t believe that Christ was some kind of sick joke played on humanity. That was the Church. The self-serving Church of men was the sick joke.

Because we are a terrible species, and yet He loves us so much that he would be tortured to death for us even though he was faultless. Call it a myth if you want. I tend to think that God can do anything, and if He wanted to humble Himself to become a person for our sake, then that is truly worthy of praise.

i am a believer in Christ, but I wouldn’t call myself a follower of any church, dogma or otherwise. I feel like I have very good personal reasons for my beliefs, but I don’t intend to convince anyone who doesn’t want to believe what should be immediately apparent. The universe is ordered in such a way that life became conscious to share in God’s creation. That’s not to say that the world is six thousand years old or some such nonsense. I know that all of scientific evidence strongly suggests that the universe is at least 13.8 billion years old. I believe evolution is part of the design of life. Why should science contradict this. It makes more sense to me that there is a conscious intention to the universe. But why suffering in the world? Sorry, but you don’t know better than God, and, furthermore, the universe wasn’t created for any one individual’s benefit, contrary to what Donald Trump might think. Bad shit happens to everyone. Don’t take it personally. You don’t know what God’s true purpose for creation is, and you don’t even know if we’re the end result. All the evidence says we are but a precursor to something else, and something else after that. Be grateful! Don’t be an ingrate! God has let you live today which is probably more than your egomaniacal self deserves.

Not sure, I tend to find freedom from myself in such places. I hope I can get on something similar in Poland. — Wallows

Well, if it doesn’t work out the way you want it to right now, then I hope for you that you can adapt to whatever may come. Life almost never does what we want it to. Sometimes it does.

Don’t fool yourself. After six months or less you would be begging for freedom.

Pretty much no since Reagan. Not unless you are criminally insane.

I believe everyone should know their individual purposes when their time comes or presents itself. It’s a choice to accept the challenge or not. I’m still waiting to see what mine is. I think it might have something to do with an alien takeover of Earth. That’s my so-called delusion. It was presented to me in a dream, but I don’t know if I’m supposed to trust the alien or follow what I know is right. I’m starting to think the latter. But what if the aliens are sent by God to pass final judgment? The alien said they would protect me. Should I trust him or myself?

I said I didn’t speak for God. You seem to know Him better than me. After all, you claim to know the absolute standards for good and evil.

Well, as far as the legal systems of any 1st world nations go, humans can and do judge good and bad, so it's your word against theirs, unless you claim to be "god" or to speak for god. — IvoryBlackBishop

Of course I don’t speak for God. I think you are confusing me with you.

I don’t think humans can be rational. Everything about us is irrational.

And as far as that goes, whether we were talking "humans" specifically, or a race of aliens or androids who were comparable to humans in terms of their inherant faculties, I believe that the same scenarios would apply. — IvoryBlackBishop

Humans aren’t absolutely good or bad. Likewise, there are no absolutely good behaviors. You might give money to the poor. Something you and I think is good. The poor then buy consumer junk that ends up in landfills, just like you and I do. The poor may use that money to heat their homes. That causes global warming, etc. etc.

You CANNOT say something is good or evil, and it hold any logical weight, unless there is a judge. — Qwex

I agree with this, but probably not in the way you think. Humans have no business judging absolute good and bad. Only God has that authority.

A matter of perspective to ourselves and others.

People can actually knowingly commit evil, at least in the sense that they're fully under the impression that they're doing or about to do is wrong but they do it anyway. — BitconnectCarlos

Most people want to live in a world without suffering. Of course. But to some other conscious beings what are we? We all must suffer to experience and learn from life, as well. That is my ontology. How much we suffer is a matter of perspective.

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Fair enough then, so "to the Nazis", putting Jews in gas chambers was "good", who's to say there was anything wrong in that perception? — IvoryBlackBishop

Nope. You’re still not getting it. Humans are not the center of the universe as you might think. To us, it is bad. To them, it was good. There is no right or wrong without a percipient. I’m not denying that. When did I deny that?

For example, even if a man losing his finger isn't "as bad" as losing he entire right arm, but would be different degrees of injury or loss, and there would be similarities between the two of them which could be compared and contrasted. — IvoryBlackBishop

What about to the guy who hates him?

Clearly, I think exterminating people is bad. To the dolphins, it would be very good.

My point is: compared to what? Some fiction where people don’t suffer? If there is an absolute, then it is in Heaven with God. I’m sure you don’t believe that, though. To God there are absolutes. Everything is good to Him. To us self-centered humans, there is relative good and bad. I think my life is bad, but to someone living in Haiti it is probably very good looking from their perspective.

Okay. The one absolute is that there are no other absolutes than this self-referring statement.

Also, you continue to misunderstand me. If, for example, this turned out to be the best of all possible worlds where in others the Nazis blew up the world with nuclear bombs, would this world not be good compared to the others?

You completely misunderstood me. Also, to say there are no absolutes is an absolute is like saying the fictional unicorn is an actual unicorn.

I meant for someone to kill Hitler before the concentration camps or even before he took power.

My point is that it’s all about perception. Certainly I have views about what is good and what is bad, as the dolphins probably do. Mine differ from theirs, however, I’m sure. Furthermore, I believe that Hitler was evil. As certainly the Jews do. Did the Nazis know they were evil?

Am I the only one on this forum with self-awareness? It seems that everyone here feels they are guiltless good people. I try to be good to the best of my capabilities, but I often fail. Is everyone here a saint?

Edit: oops posted in wrong thread

You’re welcome!

I wish I knew how to cure myself of my discomfort. Doctors have told me that there is currently no known cure. I do however agree with them that I have a “mood disorder”. The depression is the worst feeling in the world. The mania is exciting, though it’s hard on others.

Now I understand you better. I like what you have to say about controlling hallucinations.

I have different “problems”. Your hallucinations sound nice. “Mine” are not. You see, I don’t believe that I hallucinate as others have said. I feel I see reality better than most people, in fact. My previous psychiatrist said my mind plays tricks on me, however, without ever witnessing my public or private interactions.

I do however tend to think that things are about me when others say they are not. I’m starting to believe them about that.

I’ve been diagnosed as schizoaffective with paranoia. This I’m sure is different than your case.

What would it mean for one, single individual, marooned on an unihabited island to be good? In the way I understand ethics, it's about how we treat others and that should involve the species, here standing for a group, don't you think? — TheMadFool

So, I don't fully agree with you about morality valuing the individual if it means the group is valued less. — TheMadFool

I didn’t say or mean this at all. I meant in how we treat individuals in our relationships. Even a marooned person has intrinsic value, but of course her ethics would only involve how she treated the ecosystem of the island. If she didn’t live in harmony with it, she would be immoral. That’s strictly my view, and I understand that it is the Western way to view the environment as something that is for the use of humanity.

If you regularly have schizophrenic episodes in which you lose your mind, then you could possibly be a danger to society, not just in Asia, but also in your own home country. In that case, it is up to your doctor to advise you to move to an (open) institution or so, where they can keep an eye on your episodes. If you are not a danger to others, then you can freely move around in your own country but also abroad. — alcontali

I will address this point first. I don’t agree that I have “schizophrenic episodes”, though others disagree.

I am allowed to move freely in my country, and I have no desire to live elsewhere. I’m sticking to my home.

I do have a mortgage with my wife, my wife has a car loan and student loan debt, and we have a few thousand in personal loans. This is just my society’s norm. I’m not complaining. We live nicely, and we will pay them off. Well, maybe my wife will die with her student loan debt, but as of now and for the foreseeable future, she is only paying an income-based repayment. Sucks, sure, but she has job security with good benefits relative to most workplaces.

We eat what we can afford, which isn’t exactly good food. I’m obese, and I have been for most of my adult life mostly due to the antipsychotics I have to take that sap my motivation and drive. Even when I exercised vigorously I didn’t lose weight until one time when I was 26 years old I went off of all meds and lost 60 pounds. Then my psychiatrist threatened to commit me unless I started taking my medications again. Oh well. It doesn’t really bother me much until I get bullied about my weight and lifestyle which happens when I go out in public. I’m obese but otherwise healthy. I had a full blood work up a few months back, and everything came back normal. I don’t have diabetes but have sleep apnea, which also contributes to my energy level.

I am otherwise ignorant on how much it costs to live in SE Asia. I very much doubt I would fit in there. I don’t even fit in in my home country.

Cool

I’m sure you’re saying something valid, but I don’t know what it is given the information provided. You’ll have to do a better job explaining what you mean and defining your terms. Philosophy isn’t easy.

You can break anger responses any time you want too. — Isaac

Now they just lock you up.

You can break anger responses any time you want too. — Isaac

They used to give lobotomies for that.

Seriously, the simplest solution is to abandon ship. It's not worth it anyway. Furthermore, why lead a shitty life if you could also lead a happy one? — alcontali

Most people don’t have the financial means to leave the country, let alone their own state (in the US). Then there’s the problem of gaining citizenship. That’s downright impossible for someone diagnosed with a mental illness.

I think that’s just relativist thinking, it doesn’t help me at all. — Brett

To dismiss it as “just relativist thinking” doesn’t do away with its strength. My response should have been directed to the thread as a whole, not just you. Didn’t mean to single you out, although that’s exactly what I did.

Let’s say that evil is the absence of good. — Brett

Who’s to say what is good? I’m thinking of the old Taoist parable. Also the story of Adam and Eve who thought they could gain such knowledge by eating the forbidden fruit (knowing better than God). Would it have been bad to kill Hitler in cold blood? Perhaps you might argue that’s murder. Perhaps you would call it justifiable homicide. Perhaps someone more evil than the murdered Hitler had hypnotized the Germans during their time of runaway inflation caused by the winners of the First World War. My point is that people have differing views on what is good and what is bad. Also that there are no absolutes. Perhaps you think you’re generally a good person. I doubt the world’s dolphins swimming through the pollution and plastic you’ve contributed to would think so.

Isaac is talking about what behaviors are most frequent (that we don’t usually act angry). You are saying that people feel angry at times but usually don’t act on it. He is finding fault with your use of the term “tendency” as he uses it differently than you. He is using it as a psychologist would.

You can’t just cherry pick human tendencies. — Brett

He’s saying it’s not a tendency. Behaviors and feelings are different things. You’re both arguing past each other.

For simplicity's sake, lets call good actions those which bring happiness, evil actions which take it away, and neutral actions those that do not affect our happiness. — Tzeentch

Sure, but that is too simple. A perceived bad act by one may not be perceived as bad by another. A perceived bad act can cause a perceived bad act by another, which to yet another might be perceived as justice.

Are you saying most people are angry most of the time? That seems a stretch. Most people I meet aren't angry most of the time. — Isaac

I’m usually only angry when I’m watching cable news or when people shit on me (figuratively, of course).

You sure? — Wheatley

Absolutely.

As far as we know conscious awareness is a biological phenomenon. Its function is to help creatures react to their environment. — Wheatley

That’s metaphysics.