What is the purpose of society if not striving for utopia though?

I'm not particularly worried about (Seek retser vices). I'm curious as to see where you are going with this though

Exactly, people who expose the truth are villified by the ignorant masses. The key to that is tohide the truth. Use people as objects as a means to attain an end. You said it yourself, we are society. Some people still operate under the illusion of having a self and are ignorant to the threats against humanity. So instead of trying to wake them up manipulate them to achieve your goal for the greater good.

I would say I feel relatively safe. And we lived on that up until now because it has worked. What is your alternative proposition? Reject the selfish part under the false assumption that other people will see you doing that and decide to do the same. It is fallacious to believe that other selfish people will admire your selflessness and decide to change themselves. What's in it for them?

I like the way you think and I think I agree. What value does integrity have though?

Lolol

I agree with the idea that a eutopian society cannot be reached while there is still a sense of self. I also think that the self is an societally evolved entity. However, I think that the notion that you can change the world by rejecting a part of your personal makeup (nature and nurture included) is sentimental and anemic. Changing yourself is an important part of changing society, but it is of negligible value in the long run if it is the only thing you are doing. It means nothing to set an example if you don't maximize the amount of people that that example influences. We have evolved to have a ME for a reason. Humans are selfish for survival purposes. Unless we can get rid of the threat of death I don't see any possible alternatives.

What are your virtues?

Why not explore the possibility? What if we could reach another of the theoretical universes? What if it reaches a point where we discover this universe is going to collapse and we need to reach another universe to survive? What do you think you are contributing to this conversation?

The other way around is to be MORAL according to virtue and the real facts — Benjamin Dovano

You have a lot of beautiful ideas, but I have yet to see any substance in most anything you have said. What real facts do you speak of?

I would rather help them because I feel like doing that not in order too feed my ego and become happy about it. — Benjamin Dovano

What is the source of that feeling if not to feed your ego?

I would try to understand myself first if I were you. — Benjamin Dovano

And how would you recommend that?

This is one of the most hypocritcal mention btw in the history of mankind, whenever anyone wants to give the world the impression that he/she cares about anything in this world they mention the " poor starving kids of Africa ".... it's like the Miss contenders say everytime, that they want to solve world hunger and all that bullshit... And bring world peace... how ? By being ego-centric ? By going to do a "moral" thing according to society to feel happy about it ? — Benjamin Dovano

Stereotypical yes, Hypocritical no. How can you not feel even a little guilty for having such an easy life when there are people suffering to that level anywhere in the world. Sex slavery, abusive parenting, war, addiction, murder, rape. All horrible things that people other than me are suffering through. You are making it out to be ego-centric to attach happiness to that like that is a bad thing. Would you prefer I be Id-centric?

How is that nonsense? Our current understanding of the known universe is that it was created randomly and has no single pattern that everything can be reduced to. Why limit existence to the known universe when it is entirely possible that others can coexist on some metric?

I don't know if I agree with the notion that happiness comes with no strings attached. To me it seems that happiness is a form of emotional pleasure and sadness is a form of emotional pain. You can't live in a state of happiness indefinitely, it comes strung along with sadness. I believe that my sense of self is an illusion and I am whatever I perceive myself to be. If I position what I perceive myself to be in accordance with what I desire out of myself in the future, then that is something I can be happy with. To me it seems you are trying to persuade me into nihilistic thought. I would rather do something productive for our society and further the technological and scientific advancements of the human race than just sit back and enjoy "the things in life you can't describe". Especially taking into consideration that whenever I do find something that I can't describe, I try and succeed. I can't think of a single think I cannot describe. I don't see it as being reasonable for me to stay in a fantasy of my own bullshit while there are kids starving in Africa. I would much rather find happiness in the material world as I don't see any other options.

But you just said the morality wasn't real. I don't personally see any other choices than materialism. I think that the "shallow" result that society has created is what I am and anything else would just be a lie I am telling myself.

This is a very undeveloped idea but my idea of a (perhaps eutopia is a better word) is the end of all human suffering. If find the root causes of all kinds of suffering then we use technology and science as a means of ending it. We could get to the point where AI does all of our work for us and takes care of us completely. We could use 3D printing to print food from some sort of raw material.Those are just a few, but ideas like that could eliminate the need for us to work to live and we could have all our basic desires satisfied. If our desires are satisfied and we give up our control of being the most powerful species to AI, We could all live relaxing, adventurous lives and have no source of immediate stress or need to really think at all.

Lol, Why is that?