Did I say that? — Metaphysician Undercover

No, of course not! That's why I offered the question. You have the right to remain ghostly silent! X-)

So... there would be no thing as ghosts and apparitions? (Not that there is any incontrovertible evidence for them. If they exist, they are slippery little buggers... by nature I guess.)

They tend to be benevolent and happy when it suits them; but on other occasions they can be quite nasty — Banno

Maybe that is because they are remembering a very painful experience they once had... 300 years ago.

Then there's the Tibetan reincarnated Lamas... it seems to be a central tenet in their system. The child having memories of their supposed past life makes it seem more of a "personal soul" reincarnation than the strictly annata non-self karmic-energy view of reincarnation (if that makes any sense. Probably not. I can see why Buddha found metaphysical topics distracting. Probably best to have some humor and flexibility about this).

Not that it keeps me awake at night... but i have not resolved the reincarnation/heaven (or Buddha realms) question. This is probably Catholic upbringing about heaven being the final destination is lodged in my brain. Maybe it is a vacation before returning? Why would anyone want to come back? Is perfection boring? To learn more or help others possibly. Couldn't one simply watch a tutorial in heaven if they wanted to learn? They must have the technology. It's heaven! O:)

Thank you very much for your reply. Wikipedia as usual has a succinct overview. Though i think the novel is more than the sum of its parts. It is a bit of an experience, trying like the protagonist to keep up with Ishmael, following his Socratic method step by step. At least it was for me.

The question in one paragraph... Is the destruction we are inflicting on the world, and on our selves because humanity is flawed, weak, bumbling? Or is it because our culture believes and acts as though every inch of the planet belongs to humans, who are the ultimate end of creation. Will this be the end of creation, or what other choice do we have? Since 7.5 billion of us cannot go back to being hunter-gathers, now what? Could things like extinct cultures, early humans, the behavior of animals in nature, and the book of Genesis offer clues to understanding the "story" we are enacting, if looked at in a new way? And finally, can we escape this story before it kills us?

This reminds me of a saying (not from Buddha): Make your words soft, warm, and sweet... for you might have to eat them! :-x (Y)

Ok, thank you. Will check those out. (Y)

<crickets chirping> ahh, very peaceful... but wasn't intending for this to be a private thread... :D
But anyhow this seems interesting, a bunch of different people each reading a section of Ishmael, covering it in its entirety, for what it is worth...

I imagine to know what you might mean, but if you wish to elaborate it would be appreciated. Joking, not joking, half-serious, other? Thanks.

To repeat the ignostic "Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao" point that hopefully is not a cliche, and is definitely not meant to stop discussion or comment, and not to label it futile. Simply to frame such as limited but potentially useful, like directions drawn onto a napkin. (Or like describing the size of something with your hands. How about describing the size of the Pacific Ocean with your hands?) This goes for most metaphysical statements, and especially any "God is..." statements, i do believe framing them as relative, limited, and conditional is helpful despite seeming initially restrictive. For example, consider these statements:

God is. God is not. God both is and is not.
God is here. God is not here. God in some ways is here, and in some ways is not here.
God is love. God is more than love.
God is more than God. God cannot be more than God. God is more than humans' idea of God.
God can be somewhat known. God can be known, but not described.
God can be described, but not known.
The meaning of life is love. Or choice. Or the quest for knowledge and wisdom.
There is no meaning of life. The meaning of life is in the living of it... etc...

I am not necessarily endorsing nor denying any of these sentences, of course. Not saying here that words are ultimately meaningless. I guess the point is to consider paradox, expand upon logic (build upon logic, transcend and include it), and let go of literalness when it may be beneficial. This may be obvious or foolish, but it helps me deal with concepts, ymmv.

For sure, quotes that old that have been translated and retranslated will probably not be exactly what was originally said, assuming it was said at all. But i will have to disagree that he cannot be quoted at all since he apparently wrote nothing- if that is what you are saying. Someone can be quoted at a press conference, for instance FWIW. :)

There may be something to be gained from pondering emptiness, what is not physically there, or words not said. I hopefully would not presume to speak for the Buddha, little to be gained by doing that. But to look at the donut, instead of the hole for just a moment... Some good stuff here.

Buddha Quotes:

All wrong-doing arises because of mind. If mind is transformed can wrong-doing remain?

The mind is everything. What you think you become.

It is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways.

There is nothing so disobedient as an undisciplined mind, and there is nothing so obedient as a disciplined mind.

Nothing can harm you as much as your own thoughts unguarded.

To conquer oneself is a greater task than conquering others.

You cannot travel the path until you have become the path itself.

The only real failure in life is not to be true to the best one knows.

No one saves us but ourselves. No one can and no one may. We ourselves must walk the path.

Purity or impurity depends on oneself. No one can purify another.

However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.

Three things can not hide for long: the Moon, the Sun and the Truth.

If we could see the miracle of a single flower clearly, our whole life would change.

Those who have failed to work toward the truth have missed the purpose of living.

There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.

In separateness lies the world’s greatest misery; in compassion lies the world’s true strength.

When you realize how perfect everything is you will tilt your head back and laugh at the sky.

If you light a lamp for somebody, it will also brighten your path.

If you find no one to support you on the spiritual path, walk alone. There is no companionship with the immature.

Learn this from water: loud splashes the brook but the oceans depth are calm.

I never see what has been done; I only see what remains to be done.

If you knew what I know about the power of giving you would not let a single meal pass without sharing it in some way.

It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you.

Look within, thou art the Buddha.

The whole secret of existence is to have no fear.

You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.

If the problem can be solved why worry? If the problem cannot be solved worrying will do you no good.

There is no path to happiness: happiness is the path.

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.

Even death is not to be feared by one who has lived wisely.

A man is not called wise because he talks and talks again; but if he is peaceful, loving and fearless.

You only lose what you cling to.

Pain is certain, suffering is optional.

As you walk and eat and travel, be where you are. Otherwise you will miss most of your life.

The past is already gone, the future is not yet here. There’s only one moment for you to live.

Even as a solid rock is unshaken by the wind, so are the wise unshaken by praise or blame.

Wear your ego like a loose fitting garment.

The trouble is, you think you have time.

A dog is not considered a good dog because he is a good barker. A man is not considered a good man because he is a good talker.

People with opinions just go around bothering one another.

Remembering a wrong is like carrying a burden on the mind.

There isn’t enough darkness in all the world to snuff out the light of one little candle.

One moment can change a day, one day can change a life and one life can change the world.

Imagine that every person in the world is enlightened but you. They are all your teachers, each doing just the right things to help you.

Whatever words we utter should be chosen with care for people will hear them and be influenced by them for good or ill.

True love is born from understanding.

Hatred does not cease through hatred at any time. Hatred ceases through love. This is an unalterable law.

Every morning we are born again. What we do today is what matters most.

Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.

Every human being is the author of his own health or disease.

If you are facing in the right direction, all you need to do is keep on walking.

(From here. Hopefully these are all accurate quotes.)

Perhaps that wasn't clearly worded. I meant that they want to keep the status quo, unless it can be made to be even more in their favor, along with their billionaire backers.

No problem whatsoever.
— 0 thru 9

How so? The Buddha is censoring vital information. — TheMadFool

I wouldn't put it that way, and i hope you don't actually think that is the case. It makes him seem uncompassionate, and it sounds like a conspiracy theory. :D I'm no expert. But of course do whatever works best for you... Like it was mentioned above, the Buddha wants each person to work it out for themselves. Fish can be a delicious meal, but unless I'm a baby penguin, I'd rather eat the fish myself rather than to have it regurgitated to me. The Buddha's final words, according to tradition:
"Behold, O monks, this is my advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation." (Y)

Daniel Quinn's idea about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the book of Genesis may be relevant
— 0 thru 9

Thanks for pointing that out. So, Christianity also has something similar. In God's eyes, knowledge of good and evil is harmful. Why else would he forbid Adam and Eve from eating from the tree.

What exactly is the problem here? Buddha remains silent on God. God refuses to give Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil — TheMadFool

(Y) No problem whatsoever. The two different things seem to support each other, even coming from separate traditions. Knowledge of course is a wonderful, liberating thing. In Buddhism, wisdom is the opposite of the ignorance which births greed and hatred and countless scourges. Maybe a more helpful translation would be "the tree of One Who is Beyond Good and Evil". Which by definition would only be the Creator.

Many sources. Buddhism isn't what people in the West generally think it is. It's very very conservative in Asia. — Agustino

Ok sure, generally speaking it may be more conservative in Asia. And there may be those interested in Buddhism that believe that it is a hippy dippy tantric party, or something. I can't speak for those theoretical people. East is East, and West is West. And though the two have met, they will never be identical twins. It would not surprise me if the Dalai Lama understands cultural differences and has different messages for different circumstances. Here is a example of his general take on sex. I am not necessarily agreeing nor disagreeing with him, just giving an example. The video you posted is humorous, but i am still cannot find the sources of these supposed strict doctrines from the Dalai Lama. But again, this is somewhat of a side issue, imho.

Who told you that? That's what some sects of Mahayana Buddhism (especially those Western ones) believe, but the oldest version of Buddhism, the Theravada absolutely don't believe that, and it would most likely count as wrong-belief. Why? Because Samsara is dukkha & annica - Nirvana is not. Hence this difference prevents them from being the same. — Agustino

Well, you answered your own question quite well. It is an Mayayana teaching. That doesn't qualify it as wrong necessarily, especially for a non-Buddhist to say, no offense. Or do you have some Buddhist practice, in addition to your obvious knowledge and study of it. (Not being judgmental or sarcastic, just an honest question. Because as I understand it, religions cannot be fully and completely understood from the outside. That is probably a whole other topic though). But I would say the Theravada position might be safer, for lack of a better word, less likely to be misunderstood especially by novices like me. In other words, for God all things are good, but for humans some things are good and some things are bad.

One second ago you were telling me that Samsara and Nirvana are not ultimately separate, so how is it possible to avoid re-birth? And what is it that avoids re-birth? — Agustino

Personally, I don't know for sure. Any answer I would give is speculation. But as I understand it, the general teaching says when one transcends Karma, then one is free of re-birth. Someone please correct this if it is mistaken, or add some further clarification.

Then why did the Buddha remain silent on the matter?
— TheMadFool
Because he wanted people to see for themselves. — Agustino

The salvation from maya is achieved via asceticism and morality, certainly not by immoral practices, regardless of how much you meditate. That's part of the 8-Fold Path. — Agustino

I would tend to agree with these statements.

(Y) Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. IMHO, eventually the majority of people will come around to this POV, more or less. It may take a decade; it may take a hundred years. The worse things get, the quicker people will be willing to acknowledge and deal with the downsides of Neo-Liberalistic capitalism. Maybe it will be too late in some ways. But better late than never. I think the idea of local currency is worth exploring.

Our current global economic situation is like one of those old Bugs Bunny cartoons where someone builds a dam in a river, and controls the water. Then the other person goes upstream of them and builds their own dam. And so on to the point of absurdity. The energy of life in our culture is not flowing freely. It is barely flowing at all, and the wasted talent, energy, time, and lives is almost unimaginable. Change is inevitable for the center cannot hold. We can do it the easy way by understanding the dynamics or the hard way by ignoring it and hoping it will just go away. The Democrat and Republican "leaders" are all in agreement and collusion on this issue, any differences are mostly about jockeying for position.

And now the cartoon, folks! (try to ignore the annoying laugh track that was added for some strange reason).

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2jfjlu

It then follows that knowledge of God's existence/nonexistence must be harmful in some way. Did the Buddha anticipate crusades/jihad and the nihilism of atheism? — TheMadFool

If i had to speculate, the knowledge itself wouldn't necessarily be the problem. I would imagine that during his life, Buddha had heard endless debates and arguments about countless beliefs. At a certain point, it becomes counterproductive. Meditation, prayer, and other efforts are neglected in the pursuit of debate. Metaphysical debates are like candy. If one has eaten nutritious food, candy isn't a problem. But if the entire diet is sweets...

Daniel Quinn's idea about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the book of Genesis may be relevant. He proposes that this tree is made only for the gods, as he calls them, and is the knowledge to run the world. When humans eat of this tree they do not get Knowledge, they only believe that they have the knowledge of the gods. And it is easy to see how that would go quickly astray.

Dharma - Buddha-nature - Nirvana -> they are not impermanent (annica). Dharma is often translated as the Tao in Chinese, and the Tao is translated as Logos in Europe, meaning the Word. I think Buddha did reveal - or at least he invited people to see for themselves. — Agustino

With this I would agree, with the additional side comment that it is taught that Nirvana and Samsara are ultimately not separated.

Karma is virtually identical with sin in Christianity. There is no sin that will go unpunished in Buddhism (whether in this life or in the next), that's what Karma means. — Agustino

Partially agree. Karma of course means "action", and all actions have consequences and results. Good actions will likewise have good re-actions. Hence, the encouragement towards right speech, right thinking, etc. The mind-blowing kicker here is that the goal is to move beyond the whole realm of karma entirely, avoiding earthly re-birth. Unless one is a bohdisattva, intentionally enduring re-birth for the good of others. At least as I generally understand it, the various branches of Buddhism have their own specific teachings.

Even having sex with your own wife during the day - for example - is a sin according to the Dalai Lama, which will be punished. — Agustino

Not disagreeing, just had not heard this before. Do you have a source for it? Even if so, it would seem to be in the realm of Tibetan Buddhism belief only.

The fact that pink-flying pony Buddhists in the West believe otherwise doesn't change the roots of the religion. — Agustino

Funny! May we all contribute our favorite caricatures and straw men? BTW, my flying pony is an irridescent purple.:D

Don't know if you had mentioned that you had given meditation a serious try. Like the saying goes, if the water is allowed to remain unstirred, the mud will settle and there will be clarity. Also, what if you put all thoughts of hell, Calvin, Luther, etc out of your mind for a week? Maybe it might help. Just an idea for some peace.

However, the Christian can benefit from understanding another religion, seeing what's valuable in it, etc. — Agustino

No the Christian cannot benefit for himself from the study of Buddhism, — Agustino

Are you disagreeing with yourself now because no one else is sufficient competition? :P Not sure what you mean here. Very many Western believers have benefited from studying and practicing Eastern religions and wisdom. So if that helps them and maybe prevents from ditching their faith entirely, that seems to be a plus.

Christianity also has meditation and prayer through for example the tradition of Hesychasm — Agustino

In my personal Roman Catholic experience at least, meditation and the other aspects of mind training were not in the forefront of the message or practice. The Eastern Orthodox tradition seems different, and that is good for the spiritual development of its followers. Also, Buddhism had a effect on Greek philosophy, and subsequently the Orthodox tradition, as you are doubtless aware. Wikipedia.

Exactly. So if for example a Jewish or Christian believer can benefit from the study and/or practice of Buddhism and meditation, then it's a good thing. They haven't abandoned their faith, just deepened their spiritual practice, or at least they might say. The fact that Buddhism is not primarily a Theistic belief system actually make easier to pair with other religions. The only hindrance is in the mind, but that may be the biggest obstacle.

There is no Buddhist Christianity, that's a very profound error right there. Christianity may have some similarities with Buddhism, however, because of the person of Jesus Christ, Christianity is ultimately entirely different. — Agustino

Why couldn't a Christian be influenced and inspired by Buddhism, in a way similar to being influenced by Taoism or the many teachings and forms of yoga, for example? Is there nothing to be gained, or is it simply impossible or heretical? If so, why?

Chapter Three

1.
“What’s that?” I said when I arrived the following morning. I was referring to an object resting on the arm of my chair.
“What does it look like?”
“A tape recorder.”
“That’s exactly what it is.”
“I mean, what’s it for?”
“It’s for recording for posterity the curious folktales of a doomed culture, which you are going to tell me.”
I laughed and sat down. “I’m afraid I haven’t as yet found any curious folktales to tell you.”
“My suggestion that you look for a creation myth bore no fruit?”
“We have no creation myth,” I said again. “Unless you’re talking about the one in Genesis.”
“Don’t be absurd. If an eighth-grade teacher invited you to explain how all this began, would you read the class the first chapter of Genesis?”
“Certainly not.”
“Then what account would you give them?”
“I could give them an account, but it certainly wouldn’t be a myth.”
“Naturally you wouldn’t consider it a myth. No creation story is a myth to the people who tell it. It’s just the story.”
“Okay, but the story I’m talking about is definitely not a myth. Parts of it are still in question, I suppose, and I suppose later research might make some revisions in it, but it’s certainly not a myth.”
“Turn on the tape recorder and begin. Then we’ll know.”
I gave him a reproachful look. “You mean you actually want me to … uh …”
“To tell the story, that’s right.”
“I can’t just reel it off. I need some time to get it together.”
“There’s plenty of time. It’s a ninety-minute tape.”
I sighed, turned on the recorder, and closed my eyes.”

2.
“It all started a long time ago, ten or fifteen billion years ago,” I began a few minutes later. “I’m not current on which theory is in the lead, the steady-state or the big-bang, but in either case the universe began a long time ago.”
At that point I opened my eyes and gave Ishmael a speculative look.
He gave me one back and said, “Is that it? Is that the story?”
“No, I was just checking.” I closed my eyes and began again. “And then, I don’t know—I guess about six or seven billion years ago—our own solar system was born…. I have a picture in my mind from some childhood encyclopedia of blobs being thrown out or blobs coalescing … and these were the planets. Which, over the next couple billion years, cooled and solidified…. Well, let’s see. Life appeared in the chemical broth of our ancient oceans about what—five billion years ago?”
“Three and a half or four.”
“Okay. Bacteria, microorganisms evolved into higher forms, more complex forms, which evolved into still more complex forms. Life gradually spread to the land. I don’t know … slimes at the edge of the oceans... amphibians. The amphibians moved inland, evolved into reptiles. The reptiles evolved into mammals. This was what? A billion years ago?”
“Only about a quarter of a billion years ago.”
“Okay. Anyway, the mammals … I don’t know. Small critters in small niches—under bushes, in the trees…. From the critters in the trees came the primates. Then, I don’t know—maybe ten or fifteen million years ago—one branch of the primates left the trees and …” I ran out of steam.
“This isn’t a test,” Ishmael said. “The broad outlines will do—just the story as it’s generally known, as it’s known by bus drivers and ranch hands and senators.”
“Okay,” I said, and closed my eyes again. “Okay. Well, onething led to another. Species followed species, and finally man appeared. That was what? Three million years ago?”
“Three seems pretty safe.”
“Okay.”
“Is that it?”
“That’s it in outline.”
“The story of creation as it’s told in your culture.”
“That’s right. To the best of our present knowledge.”
Ishmael nodded and told me to turn off the tape recorder. Then he sat back with a sigh that rumbled through the glass like a distant volcano, folded his hands over his central paunch, and gave me a long, inscrutable look. “And you, an intelligent and moderately well-educated person, would have me believe that this isn’t a myth.”
“What’s mythical about it?”
“I didn’t say there was anything mythical about it. I said it was a myth.”
I think I laughed nervously. “Maybe I don’t know what you mean by a myth.”
“I don’t mean anything you don’t mean. I’m using the word in the ordinary sense.”
“Then it’s not a myth.”
“Certainly it’s a myth. Listen to it.” Ishmael told me to rewind the tape and play it back.
After listening to it, I sat there looking thoughtful for a minute or two, for the sake of appearances. Then I said, “It’s not a myth. You could put that in an eighth-grade science text, and I don’t think there’s a school board anywhere that would quibble with it—leaving aside the Creationists.”
“I agree wholeheartedly. Haven’t I said that the story is ambient in your culture? Children assemble it from many media, including science textbooks.”
“Then what are you saying? Are you trying to tell me that this isn’t a factual account?”
“It’s full of facts, of course, but their arrangement is purely mythical.”
“I don’t know what you’re talking about.”
“You’ve obviously turned off your mind. Mother Culture has crooned you to sleep.”
I gave him a hard look. “Are you saying that evolution is a myth?”
“No.”
“Are you saying that man did not evolve?”
“No.”
“Then what is it?”
Ishmael looked at me with a smile. Then he shrugged his shoulders. Then he raised his eyebrows.
I stared at him and thought: I’m being teased by a gorilla. It didn’t help.
“Play it again,” he told me.
When it was over, I said, “Okay, I heard one thing, the word appeared. I said that finally man appeared. Is that it?”
“No, it’s nothing like that. I’m not quibbling over a word. It was clear from the context that the word appeared was just a synonym for evolved.”
“Then what the hell is it?”
“You’re really not thinking, I’m afraid. You’ve recited a story you’ve heard a thousand times, and now you’re listening to Mother Culture as she murmurs in your ear: ‘There, there, my child, there’s nothing to think about, nothing to worry about, don’t get excited, don’t listen to the nasty animal, this is no myth, nothing I tell you is a myth, so there’s nothing to think about, nothing to worry about, just listen to my voice and go to sleep, go to sleep, go to sleep….’”
I chewed on a lip for a while, then I said, “That doesn’t help.”
“All right,” he said. “I’ll tell you a story of my own, and maybe that’ll help.” He nibbled for a moment on a leafy wand, closed his eyes, and began...

Excerpt From: Quinn, Daniel. “Ishmael.” A Bantam/Turner Book, 2009-12-16. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itun.es/us/EKycz.l

The ability to lose and forget yourself periodically in some activity or hobby seems to do wonders for overall peace of mind. It is like a little nap, in terms of stress relief. I think that is why we love books and movies so much. "The world is too much with us"? Maybe our self is too much with us. Lose yourself, lose your problem.

:) (Y)

What I find to be a helpful approach (and maybe you would possibly), is a small dose of ignosticism, in a Theistic way. Meaning that any knowledge of the Creator filtered through our perceptions is bound to be relative. Even if one defines the Creator as absolute, we as humans are planted in the relative world. Even if one were given a glimpse of the Absolute, the finite brain, as wonderful and powerful as it is, immediately turns the experience into something of a lower-resolution copy, like a low bitrate audio file of a Beatles song. Is it still useful and real and special? Yes, for certain. But if there is degradation in message quality even within one's own mind, how much more so when attempting to communicate it to others? Which again is all well and good. Sharing our beliefs, experiences, speculations, and opinions, etc. can possibly be true, beautiful, and good. Keeping in mind the nature of our minds, the limits of the entire affair, the "rules of the game" if you will, might make things a bit clearer. This might be obvious, but it bears mentioning. FWIW.

Is the current form of farming and agriculture the only way or even the best way to go out it? In terms of sheer productivity, certainly. But what are its downsides? If we turn almost all available land and resources into human food, does that cause the population to increase unchecked? Is that a good thing? Is it beyond control or too late to do anything about? Is it practical wisdom or greedy hubris to believe that all the world's resources undoubtedly belong to humans? Is a world consisting mainly of human food and fodder for human food ecologically stable?

(Y) Excellent, thank you. Yes, The Brothers Karamozov is his masterpiece. Have you seen the 1958 film? Highly abridged from the novel of course, but full of its spirit, character, music, and tensions. Movies like that and Becket, On the Waterfront, Mutiny on the Bounty(all versions), Spartacus, Ben-Hur, A Lion in Winter, Billy Budd, and other various ones like V For Vendetta, Contact, The Last Unicorn, Schindlers List, Koyanisqattsi, The Lord of the Rings, Pink Floyd's The Wall, and The Song Remains the Same really helped me through the existential crisis, philosophical and spiritual questions, and irrational guilt. It is better now, but of course questions remain. Such is life. But it feels like sailing the ocean rather than drowning in it. May you find the same in your own way.

About the self, this seems to be a helpful quote from Dogen:
Studying the Buddha way is studying oneself. Studying oneself is forgetting oneself. Forgetting oneself is being enlightened by all things. Being enlightened by all things is to shed the body-mind of oneself, and those of others. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this traceless enlightenment continues endlessly.

Right. Well, none of these guys died for your sins. But they occasionally had good things to say. Like Luther: “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.” — Bitter Crank

Good ones! Both your quote and Luther's. (Y)

Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions...are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies. — Joseph Campbell

(Y) Great quote. Joseph Campbell did all he could to make "myth" not a bad word concerning beliefs.

Are you a christian? — Beebert

I don't know what to call the beliefs i hold now. What do you call a dog of many different breeds? A mutt? I was raised Catholic with 12 years of religious school, so i don't think the Christianity would go away even if i tried. And that's ok. What i mentioned before about Enlightenment and the Holy Spirit being real, is as real as i have ever found any "thing" to be, for what it is worth. Also the Tao Te Ching has given much guidance and clarity.

Are you around college age perhaps? I ask because i think i could have written posts similar to yours here when i was about 19, including the Bible reading, fear of hell, and Dostoevsky influence. Good Fyodor knew suffering, and redemption too. What is your favorite work of his?

(btw, there have been several helpful recent threads on depression that you may or may not have seen, including this.)

(Y) Ok, wish you the best of luck with your search. It is not easy, but the things worth having are often difficult to obtain. The Spirit will guide you on how to interpret and understand the things you read. And perhaps it may help to talk to someone you trust about these things, if you haven't already done so that is. Peace.

But seriously though... It is my deepest belief that both Enlightenment and the Holy Spirit are real. More real in some ways than you and I. Longer lasting, if not eternal and infinite. We are mortal but Truth, Beauty, and Goodness are not. It cannot be contained or owned by any religion or philosophy, but the best of either follows the Light, the Force, Love, or whatever name you personally call the highest good. It will guide your steps if you but allow it.

And remember... a Revelation without dancing is a revelation not worth having. :D

Jesus or Buddha? Why not both? Why not learn from, and be inspired by both? I would be hesitant to commit to a belief system that forbade me from having impure thoughts about other wise teachers. ;) Look into any wisdom tradition or philosophy which seems to offer something to you. Meditate, study, pray until you feel a peace and wisdom. Then do it some more. If you end up gravitating one way or the other, then that's fine too. Just my two cents.

Any steps to re-balance the ego and re-consider the identity (that which is one's sense of self, or the border between "Self" and "Not-Self") will more than likely yield positive results. It is not an all-or-nothing affair where one is trying to lose, or worse yet "kill", the ego. Some gentle and gradual reducing may help, though. The ego can become inadvertently enlarged, much like an untended lawn, our bodies, or the pile of our possessions can. There seems to be something in the human mind that likes to grab and hold onto things to fill the void. This can be natural and healthy, like eating when hungry. But it quickly can go to extremes, that much seems self-evident. At least it relates to my experiences both past and present in attempting to find the ever-moving balance points. When applied to the body, it can lead to a toxic obesity and ill health. With possessions, it may manifest as extreme hoarding.

But when it is the "self itself" trying to hyper-expand to fill the void and deal with a sense of emptiness, it is harder to deal with because it is not visible. Not visible, but existent nonetheless. A feeling of disconnection and isolation from other humans and the rest of the world is perhaps one of the most common feelings. When one feels as separate, small and powerless as a ping pong ball floating on the ocean, it seems like we are battered about at the mercy of the wind and waves. The first inclination might be to do something like the expression "go big or go home". But if one completely identifies with the Isolation, and believes that they are totally separate from everything else, "going big" might just make the situation worse. Instead of being a "ping pong ball self" floating on the ocean, there is a "beach ball self" floating on the waves.

Well, the "beach ball self" is definitely bigger. Sometimes in certain circumstances bigger is better, but sometimes not. The reflexive habit to expand our identity while keeping the walls of that identity air-tight can lead to a ballooning effect. The more air pumped into a balloon, the larger it becomes. But the air pressure is also increased which may lead to a sense of tightening constriction. The larger an inflated balloon becomes, the thinner its skin is. This makes it more vulnerable to pinpricks and the like. A beach ball on the ocean may have lots of room to bob about. But imagine a room filled with many beach balls, all inflated to the max. They are "feeling" (so to speak) internally pressured from the air, and externally pressured from all the other beach balls pushing against their thin vulnerable surfaces. One can then imagine the sorts of dynamics and conflicts arising from this hypothetical situation. This describes in a very general way many of the interactions around us, imho.

Those who say that this situation is the way things are and is unavoidable, and it boils down to "survival of the fittest" are probably concerned with becoming the largest beach ball on the block, while trying to deflate their competition.

And there are those who know this dynamic exists, but are looking for other ways of existing. Those that look long enough might find something. Like still having an identity with boundaries and walls, but being conscious of the necessity of doors and windows in those mental walls.

When questioned about the phrase "discarding the ego", the original poster clarified...

Perhaps 'discard' is not the right word. I don't think it's possible to completely erase a sense of identity. The intent is to be aware of its existence; analyze how and why it formed; to identify the components that are self-defeating or cause suffering and discard those; and to realize that identity should be more like a work of art, a collection of choices that enrich your life and that of others.

Is this overly optimistic, or achievable given the right set of circumstances? — CasKev

Plus, no one in this thread is claiming to be an enlightened master or an expert in this somewhat murky subject. Looking for the questions first. If any answers turn up, then that's a bonus. X-)

I would definitely agree with that. It is the part mentioning social group roles and affiliations that seems key. Many would agree that over the past 50 or 60 years, there have been tremendous changes in the cultural, economic, educational circumstances that have seemed to have a weakening effect on the "fabric of society". Why and how might be another topic, but the general effect leads many people to not find their place in the world around them. Some have compared the situation to that of the Native Americans after their cultures were overrun and destroyed. Even though many physicially survived, their way of life was in ruins.

For a somewhat more hopeful example, witness the powerfully stabilizing effect that inner city USA ("Black") churches have. In areas where the economy, education, and the government have failed and in the midst of crime and violence, these churches are the oasis and foundation which prevents total chaos. Cultural collapse has gone mainstream, and it is here to stay. We may live in an area untouched by war, but in some ways we are living in the rubble and ashes, scrambling to survive and make sense of the world. Even when there is some measure of unity, there is no guarantee of success. But a people divided will fall- without fail.

One would think that spirituality could be expressed in many different ways; some overt, others covert. Some alone, some with others. Either in a special building, or in nature. Someone could have a mystical experience playing the piano. Not being silly, just trying to broaden the definition a little.