Yes, I like that idea. :up: That totally could work. Thanks.
I tried not to impose too many ‘rules’ because no one likes an imposer! I couldn’t sleep last night at all (which is rare since melatonin usually knocks me out) and tried to lull myself to bed with word games.

That didn’t work, but this strange idea arrived. It was probably deep in my memory, stolen from Games Monthly magazine.

Ok thanks! :up: I’m going to ask @Hanover if he happened to inhale any helium balloons lately. This may be a deadend, but it’s what Sherlock Holmes would do.

(I think my riddle starting with ‘Panda’ probably stretched the concept of ‘spectrum’ past its breaking point… just in case anyone is wondering lol).

Water, Helium, Batteries, Hanover — wonderer1

This one is funny even without an answer. (Bonus points for humorous lists and answers :grin: ).

Question: Before my brain overheats, do these puzzles happen to probably need Google to solve, or can the ‘average person’ probably do it alone? Absolutely no problem either way! Just curious if I should Google the atomic weights of water, helium, and Hanover… :chin:

Haha… well, easy puzzles first! I didn’t want anyone to strain a brain synapse or anything early in the morning lol. I did just that some years ago, and I still have flashbacks. :starstruck:

Thanks for playing along. You win a year’s supply of Turtle Wax! (turtle not included).

Your turn… (but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a riddle, as mentioned above).

Op-art and cannabis… like peanut butter and jelly. :yum:

Pandas, hippos, iguanas, lemurs, owls, seagulls, ocelots, pigeons, horses, yaks

:monkey:

No need to answer now. Let others sweat it out lol. :sweat:

pears, spinach, apples, mangoes, bananas, cranberry juice — Vera Mont

Wow, that was fast! Hope I can guess the order of your list nearly as quickly.

Fruits and vegetables, from hard to soft? Sweet to sour? Hmm… :blush:

NPR story: Opioids don’t help back pain.

CBD to the rescue! :strong: :blush:

(The following is an example of societal imbalance: our exultation of the “Mono” life, and our search to find The One Right Way to Live.
Monopoly, monogamy, monotheism, monoculture, monolithic, monomaniacal…in satirical yet serious form of some fictional ‘expert’ explaining why he thinks this way is just fine):

Monotheism.
The whole big world is rather confusing, so long ago some very wise people (it doesn’t matter who or why, it’s complicated) simplified everything into the One.
One may ask about God or Gods or Goddess or Titans or Deities or Celestial Beings.
The answer turns out to be quite simple, thankfully.
There’s only one God, period.
Therefore, it’s logical to worship Him in a socially approved manner, and avoid wasting time and energy by thinking too hard about it.
If you do ponder about God too much, you might go insane (that’s why we said it’s complicated).
There is only one God, which is easy to remember.
He is male (of course) and loves when people die and kill for Him in a sanctioned and sanctified manner.
Best of all, understanding God as completely as we do (no small feat!) gives us the courage and authority to organize the rest of society.
Such as the use of nature for purely human benefit…

Monoculture.
We’ve raised the animals for you to eat.
We gave them jobs and their own office in one of our high-tech factory farms.
They weren’t doing anything else important, and if they had a small fraction of our immense intellect they’d be proud to serve us (hamburgers).
We’ve harvested the wheat for you, ground it into flour, taken out all the stuff that will make it too brown and chewy, and served the delicious paste to you at minimal cost.
Monoculture has allowed us to dominate Mother Nature (who doesn’t realize our superiority and secretly is trying to kill us).
Mother Nature is not too bright, and one wonders what the Omnipotent God saw in her in the first place… maybe He was a little drunk and horny.
(One can’t be Omnipotent without being horny sometimes).
She is rather beautiful though.
Speaking of mating and marriage…

Monogamy.
Some animals mate with several different partners, but this is exactly because they are animals.
Animals with no sense of self, and hence no self-control.
Humans, despite rumours to the contrary, are definitely not animals in any way.
(The few people still spreading that fake news have been thoroughly discredited).
One man, one woman… the way was meant to be in order to raise a herd of children.
This cluster of children will make wonderful consumers of the many fine products that our clean and efficient factories produce non-stop.
Which leads us to the topic of work…

Monotony and Monopoly.
Factories and money are the natural way to monopolize the raw material that is the earth.
Do your job.
Do it well, and do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (Printer: repeat until the page is full).

Monarchy
There may not technically be a “monarchy” anymore, at least not one that’s just for fancy clothes and galas.
Rather it has slightly expanded to include legislatures, congresses, parliaments, ministries and ministers (both Prime and sub-prime), judges, security forces, bureaucrats, etc.
The point is that it is all settled and centralized for the convenience and safety of all.
Just like the earth is the center of the galaxy, and humanity is the center of all creation, the Monarchy is at the center of society.

(Those of a less “spiritual”, and more of a “scientific” inclination may give their devotion to Family, Job, Culture, and our benevolent and tireless leaders instead of God per se, but please keep it to yourself).

This is The One Right Way to Live.
(You’re welcome!)

Use this wisdom wisely.
(Or risk suffering The Many Wrong Ways To Die… we warn because we care).

:grimace:

Random thought…

In Stephen King’s The Shining, if Jack Torrence would have had some pot to smoke, would there have been a different ending?
Maybe where the whole family happily makes snowmen outside on the hotel lawn?
And when they are inside warming by the fireplace, Wendy makes some hot cocoa with cream.
And bakes some pot brownies.
Maybe later Jack gets a little anxious because the potato chips are gone, but then he finds some pretzels and it’s cool.
:chin:

I can personally testify to the positive effects of a strain called Harlequin, which is 50/50 THC-CBD. It's amazing for reading; distracting thoughts fade and the text becomes all-encompassing. — Pantagruel

Never tried that kind, but I’ll watch for it, thanks. :smile:
But about the distracting thoughts fading… definitely! When the combo of CBD and THC match my energy level just right… reading can trigger deep thoughts which can spawn more deep thoughts.
And I was just reading the weather forecast!

But seriously, the thoughts seem mostly deep even later when ‘sober’… which is nice.
Cannabis seems to push thoughts to deeper levels, and find connections between things that I hadn’t noticed before.
Maybe everything is connected, if we could see completely.
(If the doors of perception were cleansed… )

:up: Interesting! Thanks for sharing this.

(I’ll shorten the names to Sim and Com).
Reminds me of Ken Wilber’s concept of ‘holons’ which is anything that is simultaneously both a ‘whole’ and a ‘part’.
Example: a leaf on a tree is both a whole leaf, and is a part of tree.

So as a duality (whole and parts), it’s not unexpected that people gravitate towards one side or the other in the thinking.
Somewhat like left or right handedness.

This could be related to (or different way to say) your Sim/Com idea.
(Anyone who excels in both areas (Sim AND Com) is quite gifted; the world needs such gifts.
“From those who have been given much, much is expected!” lol).
The Artist: the whole view would equate to the Sim of your description.
The Sci-Technician: the parts view is the Com.

Neither is better than the other.
Each is vitally important; each has their role.
As they are manifest in an individual, each has their potential strengths and weaknesses.

Echoes by Pink Floyd. Original song with AI visuals (which I think are amazing in this particular instance). (Sorry if it’s already been posted. I have trouble loading the pages of this thread with all the videos. So i hid this one to lessen that a bit.)

Enjoy! :blush:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kGLo8tl5sxs

Thoughts and questions about the topic of this thread:

Is climate change (the umbrella term for a constellation of myriad environmental conditions) thought of as a symptom of an even deeper problem?
It seems so, that while no one is glad for climate change (CC), it at least ‘opens the door’ for consideration of societal change.

But sometimes, I get the impression that CC (even when taken very seriously) is thought of as a rather physical situation that intersects with us only through the carbon we give off or something.
And with some brilliant mechanical tinkering, it can be fixed without too much self-reflection as individuals or collectively.
As if nature were a car that has been running poorly and making clunky noises, but paying a trusted car mechanic will fix it.

There is another thread for the details of CC, so I’m more interested in the thinking that underlies everything we do.
And especially the ‘non-thinking’, which takes two forms:

The first meaning of non-thinking is the stuff we ignore or don’t think about in any way.
The second meaning concerns the unconscious mind, the part of our minds that doesn’t manifest itself directly, but has a tremendous influence over our consciousness.
(I’m thinking here of Freud’s iceberg model of consciousness and Jung’s collective unconscious).

Is our civilization churning out well-adjusted individuals mostly?

Or is the ‘stamp’ that our culture deeply ingrains in each of us very problematic?
Now if an individual has access to constant amusement and distraction, any problems lodged in the unconscious may be mostly dormant as long as the distractions continue.

But if the ‘toys’ are taken away leaving the only basic necessities and the person to face themselves, will the person tend to have a painful identity crisis with much anxiety?

Have we become out of touch with the natural world and even ourselves and our minds?
Are we at war with nature and ourselves?
Is this schizophrenia?

The average person could not survive very long in the deep forests, even if the weather were comfortable and they were given tools and maps.
On a psychological level, would many have a mental breakdown if the constant flow of distraction, information, and entertainment stopped even temporarily?

What comes first: the unbalanced civilization or the unbalanced person?

Or do they arise together, fall together, and even possibly become re-balanced together?

:grin: Excellent! Glad to add something useful.
(That video is excellent imho. Made using AI, but it flows with a unified purpose and color theme. It feels like I took a pill that contains the whole internet in it, filtered through the lens of that song. Or something lol).

Did someone say dark side of the moon? Sorry, it may have just been the echoes…

Can’t imagine, don’t want to imagine…
but that scenario has to be taken seriously as a very real possibility.

The Lord of the Rings is quite relevant to mankind's predicament.

Virtually everything mankind does revolves around power, or illusions thereof. Technological advances, economic planning, social engineering, politics, and obviously things like war and conflict.

A lot of this is directly motivated by a drive for power, or indirectly through a prisoner's dilemma: "If I don't do it, the other guy will and surpass me in power (and subsequently oppress me)."


Thus, everyone is forced into this wheel of abuse and exploitation.


As long as there is even a single person who desires power or security at the expense of others, that wheel will keep turning.

There are many who believe they can stop the wheel from turning through the same methods by which it turns. This is perhaps one of the most dangerous illusions of all. "Peace" through control - the central fallacy of states. Fighting fire with fire only finds 'success' after the entire house has burned down.


For the individual, the only way out of this wheel is by relinqusihing their desire for power (ego), and their desire for security (life).

Only if one acknowledges there are things more important than one's ego and one's life, will they be able to pursue a genuine goal of peace and coexistence. Without that, it's simply impossible. Without that, one will fall prey to delusions born of one's contradictory beliefs; the crusaders, "do-gooders", ideologues, etc.

This is a typical dynamic. Because, as a lingering effect of religion, man is still aware that their desire for power is inherently undesirable and the cause of most, if not all, of man's trouble. So it hides in the subconscious under a facade of good intentions, where it's arguably even more malicious because of its hidden nature.


It's no coincidence that Frodo is a Hobbit. Hobbits are content with a simple life (suggesting a lack of ego), and have no aptitude nor desire for violence (suggesting a lack of convulsively clinging to life). — Tzeentch

:100: :smile: :up:
Yes. Very well said, completely agree. Thank you very much for your post.

Oh I think I see what you are saying: civilizations are unsustainable because of their size.
Cultures are at least potentially sustainable.
Is that the comparison between the two terms that you’re making?
That sounds reasonable.

Where does leave us with our mega-civilization?
(No pressure. Just need the solution to everything in 50 words or less. :grin: )

You mentioned that you voted ‘other’ in the poll. Could you possibly elaborate on that? :smile:

Ok, that’s fine. Fair enough.

The larger point of ‘what can we learn from them?’ is what I began to address in this post.

Haha, very good. :blush: The moral of that story: don’t be so damn tight-assed and tense while trying to run everything. Life will become enjoyable again.

For me, 0 thru 9, this example stretches the notion of 'civilization' into incoherence. — 180 Proof

How so? Because they didn’t have pyramids? Because they are saddled with the pejorative ‘primitive’?

You asked for an example of a balanced civilization. Would substituting the word ‘culture’ make a difference? That’s fine, if so. :sparkle:

Well there will always be elites, right. The question is what kind of elites. Now they are able to float over and between nations and communities because of our globalized world. They can go "shopping" with different governments to get the best tax deals, etc... and are completely unmoored from any particular community because of the sheer scale of things. Globalization like we have it today, might be one of the things that has to go... and then, yes who knows what will happen. — ChatteringMonkey

:up: Yes, that is a large part of the situation.
It’s as though as relatively small group of power-hungry beavers have dammed the river almost completely, and only a trickle of water comes out on our side.
The circulation of energy and resources is anemic and slow.
But all is well with the system; we must stay the course and bite the bullet!
The ‘invisible hand’ of the market… is giving us the finger.

We certainly are raised on a steady diet of bullshit, but then that isn't new exactly... since the dawn of civilization ideologies have been created to serve as propaganda for the ruling class. This is maybe a bit of a tangent, but it's not that surprising nor will it change any time soon I'd think, because it seems that reason has developed as a means to justify ourselves to our peers... or put another way rather than truth or reason strictu sensu, 'rationalization' is what we seem to be geared for. — ChatteringMonkey

Oh yes… reason has devolved into a myriad of rationalizations.
I hope / think the pieces may be falling into place regarding this and your previous comment about the elites.
It is a desperate hope for a last minute reprieve, for sure.
We have access to more information than ever, if we want it and sort through the piles of words.
We can communicate almost instantly with info, video, etc.
The ‘elites’ want us fighting against each other instead of confronting them, and we oblige them.
Everyone is there little niche, defending their turf as the parasites suck the last of our blood and the life of the Earth.
We can change our course away from disaster by putting “on trial” those leading us there.
The time for casual empire building is over.

Framing things in term of good and bad is a moral way of looking at it. That's fine, if you want... — ChatteringMonkey

I didn’t intend to frame the situation in stark terms of ‘good and bad’, because that’s too simplistic.
Yin and Yang are much more subtle, as is that study of the Way of Life, the Tao Te Ching.
That last line was a variation on the quote ‘the good people are silent, and the bad are filled with energy’, or however that goes.

And I'd say, even in this misjudgment we are probably not exceptional. Doesn't every organism think itself to be the most important thing? — ChatteringMonkey

Well, I’d love to be able to communicate with animals, and for wild birds to perch on my finger like they did with St Francis.
I don’t know what animals think, but I know every being values its life immensely.
However, humans are the only species smart and powerful enough to disrupt major ecological processes.
We will see if we care enough to devise a way to stop.

Question: what could we possibly learn from people such as the Australian Aborigines?
Their culture (before European colonization) was radically different than ours.

A fair question.
As mentioned above, the fact that they’ve existed for countless millennia is reason for investigation.
They live simply, so it’s probably easier to sustain their existence.
We live in more complex environments, so it’s more difficult.
If it proves to be indeed non-sustainable, then obviously adjustments are necessary to make it so.

These are not simply human laws our civilization as a whole keeps violating with gusto (although it does break many of its own laws too).
These are the laws of nature: energy, biology, physics, gravity, toxicology, animal populations (of which we but one), and so on.

If we were able to see which of our habits, traditions, and technologies were tending towards the sustainable, and which were not, then that would be an excellent start.
But with vested interests everywhere, that is extremely difficult or likely impossible.
If someone doesn’t get paid, generally they can’t afford to survive.
If getting paid means selling toxic food, medicines, or information… then that will happen over and over again.

Round and round we go, locked in a loop with diminishing returns.

Our civilization has a terrible record concerning living alongside cultures with different priorities.
Our actual doctrine is ‘if we need it, we will take it’.
So much for neighborliness, lawfulness, and ‘the golden rule’ (all esteemed parts of society).

If our culture can at least begin to imagine how to stand on its own two feet in its own space and be sustainable, and not need the entire planet, along with precious minerals from outer space, that would be a good first step.

Cite an example of a "civilization" which was not unbalanced. — 180 Proof

Thanks for your reply. :smile:

I’m most familiar with our current civilization naturally, and even so it still makes my head spin.

But as an example of a balanced civilization, I’d offer the Australian Aborigines.
65,000 years of continuing existence in the same place is a damn fine record.
If we are wise, we’d learn as much as possible from them, despite differences in technology.

Starting with the cool didgeridoo, since it’s impossible to be uptight and domineering while listening to one.

:flower: Thanks for your post!
(I hope you don’t mind the formatting.
I’m trying for a less ‘block of text’ look to the post. It was discussed here).

I don't think little tweaks will do it. Climate change, bio-diversity loss and related issues will not be solved with little tweaks to the system. Our entire global economy is set up around cheap fossil fuels. Swapping those out for processes that wouldn't have this negative impact, essentially means re-inventing the whole system. Regular politics cannot go there because there are always vested interests that stand to lose to much from that amount of change.

That's also the reason I'm not that high on the type of radical activism, or revolutionaries, that demands all kinds of drastic changes to be implemented, not because I don't think we should do them, but because I just don't think it will work. As a whole we will generally not decide to sacrifice short term tangible conveniences for some relatively far off intangible good. We are bad at long term planning, but reasonably good at short term reactive action. And so that is what I think will happen, because these problems ideally demand relatively long term planning and action, we will be late in solving them. — ChatteringMonkey

Definitely, developing and using what are still called alternative sources of energy the main sources is huge, though I’m on the fence about nuclear energy.
I read about plants using nuclear waste as fuel, which is great.
You may be very correct about an entire new system needed to implement new energies.

But the skeptic/cynic in me wonders what kind of calamity it would take to dislodge the ‘elite’.
(By which I mean the robber barons and tycoon tyrants).
Would have to be a heck of an upheaval to separate that dog from his bone!
I probably could easier envision agonizingly slow adaptation of bio-fuels as long as they are profitable for corporations and their elected pals.
Difficult to say really, at least for me.

Well, I’m not an activist really… more into the ideas and thinking that underlies everything we do.
You know that point where a roof can’t take another layer of tiles and needs a complete teardown?
It feels like civilization is at that point, but first comes a re-evaluation of ideas, traditions, and habits.
Then comes the practical manifestation of those ideas that are deemed sustainable, worthy, etc.

I wonder if we were raised on a steady diet of bullshit, about who we are and what is possible.
If not bullshit, then we are metaphorically feeding on a mixture of gourmet food and broken glass.
(And besides the metaphor, the standard diet offered to humanity wouldn’t nourish a rat).
Welcome to the machine, my child… may you ride the glorious contraption to the heavens!
(Try not to get in the way of the machine though because it crushes everything in its path).

Every culture molds its young to fit in with the group, whole or tribe.
Which is fine and natural, unless the culture happens to be close to insanity.
The average person follows their orders with body exhausted, mind confused, and heart aching.

So where does that leave us one might ask :-)? I think some kind of crisis, or multiple crisis, will force our civilization to change. That is both the bad and the good news I suppose. Change will come, but probably not in the way we would draw it up. — ChatteringMonkey

Yes.
Unfortunately, you may be right about more crises forcing the change traumatically.
I hope there’s a surprise happy ending somehow.

What I do, is try to come to terms with that, manage my expectations, and try to develop some general skills that might be useful in a variety of uncertain circumstance. That is something I can do something about. To illustrate this maybe, one can look at this whole history as a gigantic failure of humanity to live up to some kind of ideal moral standard, what we could have done otherwise in some imagined counterfactual world etc etc... and eventually become a misanthrope. Or one can look at this bizarre history of a naked ape coming out of the savanna and consider it half a miracle that we even got this far. No other species voluntarily avoids overshoot either and eventually runs against the limits of its ecosystem when it has overcome its competition... we are not that different. The latter perspective is a bit more humbling and less judgement it seems to me. — ChatteringMonkey

I’m not completely convinced by the arguments listed here… sorry to say.
We could and should develop all our potential, and be positive amid the storms.
Desparate times call for a cool head, and a warm heart.
Not sword-swinging warriors who take no prisoners (another toxic role we’re taught).

I don’t view history as gigantic failure of humanity, and the phrase ‘ideal moral standard’ is somewhat problematic, in my opinion.
Of course, becoming misanthropic is a sign that something is dreadfully wrong.

I theorize that when one tries to follow the contradictory, toxic, and impossible advice and standards of our civilization, instead of training the mind with clear awareness and vision, we will live in something akin to what TS Eliot called ‘The Waste Land’.
The waste land is here now (I’m not the first to say), where the good are uncertain, and the bad filled with energy and are ready to battle.

But I agree with you that humans are not completely different from animals in every way.
Thinking that we are the center of all is one of our main misjudgments (human exceptionalism).
Humans at the top of the universal pyramid is as misguided as a flat earth as the center of all.

It’s time for humans to belatedly rejoin the family tree of nature.

This video is interesting, amazing, funny, weird, disturbing. All the things i look for in someone I’m dating. :razz: (But man, the narration is too fast to understand everything. Gotta put on slow speed!

:smile: Thanks very much for your thoughtful replies, they’re much appreciated!
Without any replies, this discussion becomes just me talking to myself lol.

Speaking of which, I have a running debate in my head.
One side is deeply pessimistic.
Not about life or existence, but about the tenets and foundations of our civilization.
Almost a desire to start civilization over, while keeping knowledge gained through history.
(This is just a fantasy, of course. But it reflects the state of mind).

The other side of my mental debate is more moderate, tweaking or adjusting this or that aspect of our culture in my mind to make things better.
Am I correct to say that you’re closer to this moderate viewpoint, rather than the radical one?
(Sorry, only two polar choices. Vanilla or chocolate lol).

If so, please convince me that this once glorious looking civilization is not rotting at the roots, and has been hollowed out by greedy termites who manipulate global markets.
(Obviously, there are many individual parts of our culture which are good, and still work).
Your comments so far are a good and well-reasoned start.
But unfortunately I (though not suffering from depression anymore) remain leaning towards the deeply pessimistic and skeptical.

So please help me, @ChatteringMonkey (and anyone else)… convince me not to go radical!
(Non-violent radical, of course :flower: ).

Here’s an article about CBD and drug testing.

I was thinking of my previous comments recommending CBD from whole hemp flowers. I still think it’s a powerful health supplement. But I’ve realized that the .3% (3 tenths of a percent) THC allowed in hemp CBD products might be enough to cause someone to fail a drug test. Which is not good if it causes one to lose their job. (I’m speaking of USA laws in general).

I’ve found that if one wants a strong CBD, with absolutely no THC, than CBD isolate is the answer. Also, it’s not as guaranteed THC-free as isolate, but products labeled “broad-spectrum” CBD have filtered out THC. “Full-spectrum” CBD has trace amounts.

Alas one cannot go back, but ultimately only move on, through, to something beyond.... to something new. In that sense his critique of the modern probably still stands, but his imagined solution may be of little consequence. — ChatteringMonkey

Thanks for your reply! :up:

My take on the LOTR and its possible implications for us… It seems to be that ‘thinking precedes doing’. Humans have many instinctual behaviors, but they are outnumbered by our many learned behaviors. Somehow, we as a civilization have come to a point where we allow and encourage treating the Earth like a limitless bank account. Take whatever resources that will make somebody some money. Because Progress! Progress! Progress! And thus teach this unconsciously to our children. (Hopefully climate change and other crises are making us rethink everything).

We cannot go back, but we can look back. Hopefully, something critical is learned.

The “sustainable golden rule”: Whatever we do to the Earth and to others, we do to ourselves.

In our quest for a better life (whatever that may entail) we best remember that. Tolkien had the hero not grabbing the power, but throwing it away! Unheard of! Because that power was against that sustainable rule. It was power over the Earth and others, not power with them. Subjugation and domination was the Ring’s one absolute power. This is a game where the only winning move is not to play.

To those who say “but there is no other way!”, I’d suggest that if no other way currently exists, then we must build it. For what the Ring represents in our actual reality is the ultimate addiction which gives a temporary high followed by complete destruction. So… throw that Ring into the fire! :fire:

Yes, I see and agree with your point. The situation overall has reached a point of gridlock/logjam, and stagnation. After that comes the rotting. Which might explain the horrid smell surrounding the dens of worldly power.

I sometimes imagine that each of my fingers has their own consciousness and personality. What do the fingers think of themselves, and each other? To them, I’d imagine they think they’re very different and completely separate. I can see their obvious differences as they can.

But to me they are all just… fingers. Including Mr and Mrs Thumb who look and feel very different than the others. The important fact that the wonderful and precious digits usually overlook (except when they’ve had some wine or pot or are simply feeling mystical and childlike) is that they are deeply connected. So connected in fact, that they couldn’t function or even exist really without the hand. They sometimes talk amongst themselves about whether a hand really exists, or is just a theory.

What would they think if they knew the same blood flowed through all of them? And muscles, bones, and nerves. That they, all the fingers on one hand, are so radically connected as to almost be a single being. Likewise they are even connected to those faraway fingers on the opposite hand.

Little left pinky finger (feeling very deep and philosophical) once suggested this very idea. That all of them were deeply connected… even to those very odd and stinky ones called “toes”. This idea was met with much skepticism from the other fingers, who assumed Pinky must be either misguided or joking. The others gave the entire notion a “thumbs down”, and went back to their chores.

What I mean is that concepts of Yin and Yang presuppose some form of sophistication.

It's hard to describe the behavior of apes through a concept like Yin and Yang (at least in the context of this discussion).

One could try, though. Does ignorance belong with Yin or with Yang? I think it belongs with neither, hence my previous remark. — Tzeentch

I think I’m understanding your point. I could blather on, but I’ll let that noted Yin-Yang master Lao Tzu substitute in response because he blathers quite nicely.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 27 (translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

A good walker leaves no tracks;
A good speaker makes no slips;
A good reckoner needs no tally.
A good door need no lock,
Yet no one can open it.
Good binding requires no knots, Yet no one can loosen it.

Therefore the sage takes care of all men
And abandons no one.
He takes care of all things
And abandons nothing.

This is called "following the light."

What is a good man?
A teacher of a bad man.
What is a bad man?
A good man's charge.
If the teacher is not respected,
And the pupil not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mystery.

Yes, but also science, politics, (what goes for) western philosophy has no other purpose than to further the pursuit of power. So both soft power and hard power. — Tzeentch

I’d say there’s some dissenting writers in the West thankfully. The post-structuralists, existentialists, and marxists offer various criticism of elements in WC. One day the seeds of wisdom of all the insightful radicals may sprout for the benefit of all. They came not to praise or bury civilization, but to save it from its own strength. At least, this is the faint flickering hope of the weary.

The West has turned into a giant Nietzschean jungle. — Tzeentch

The misunderstanding of Darwin and the dumbing down into ‘just win baby!’ and ‘the winner takes all’ is at the core of our mission and misery. It is our mission because we are trained from birth to dominate and conquer nature and each other. Misery because despite the glorious achievements, there is usually some dark shadow around every triumph, leaving a few clear helpful inventions amid the many hollow and toxic ‘victories’.

The current western system is not philosophically coherent enough to be understood through Yin and Yang. — Tzeentch

Please elaborate! (Assuming you mean ‘the actual game-plan real politic’ of WC? And not the countless philosophies that have sprouted from within… and often opposed to… western civilization?)

It has become a virtueless cult of power. Everything is understood through power. Everything revolves around power. Everything may be sacrificed for the sake of power. — Tzeentch

Power here = ‘hard power’? Lawyers, guns and money? (so to speak. As opposed to the concept of ‘soft power’ which relies on influence. Cooperation and convincing, rather than coercion.)

Critically imbalanced, yes. — Tzeentch

Agreed! :100:

In the sense that chimpanzee society works on the same principles. — Tzeentch

Wait a minute… you wouldn’t bad mouth my ancestors, would you??? :grin: :monkey:

Thanks for sharing that! Reminds me of the saying ‘too many chiefs, not enough Indians”.
I guess when the regular folk have a deficiency of money and respect, and a surplus of chores, headaches, and blame, then everyone will wish to be ‘elite’. :wink:

Lord of the Rings is good, I definitely enjoyed the movies, but as a philosophy it is ultimately maybe a bit reactionary.

There's a ton about this. But maybe Charles C Mann, the wizards and the prophets. It's an interesting read if you want to understand two very opposing attitudes vis-a-vis progress and technology, and how they shaped different aspects of our world and the environmental movement.

Or maybe Nate Hagens specifically for this topic, he has a youtube channel and podcast that tries to look at all aspects of our current predicament and it's fairly easy to digest. — ChatteringMonkey

Thanks for your message. I’ll check out Mann and Hagens. :clap:

Ok, I’ll bite lol… Just for fun… how is the philosophy of LOTR “reactionary”? (I take that term to mean ‘wishing to maintain a status quo or return to a previous condition’). Perhaps Tolkien’s depiction of a devolving world where nothing is what once was? (Ahh… the good old days! :halo: :sparkle: )

Maybe there's some substance in what you say but I'm not convinced our woes are a matter of 'balance' as such. Balance ( a more even distribution) seems too symmetrical, too neat a category to resolve the global issues we face. We live in a culture with distorted values and concomitant behaviours in numerous domains. To ask for balance IMO may not really address the problems. You could equality posit that what we need is a commitment to political transformation or a 'return to nature' crusade.

Any one of us can posit that the real problem is how capitalism operates and the urgent need for people to care more for others. But would balance be a substantive solution, or is it more about changing who we are, what we believe and who is in charge? Is wanting less of some things and more of other things about balance (in the colloquial, conversationalist sense, perhaps)? Not sure if it is at a deeper level. — Tom Storm

Thanks for your reply. Yes, my suggestion is an speculative attempt using imagination to ascertain the ‘foundational ideas’ of our culture. Thoroughly examining the invisible tracks that the (metaphorical) train of our civilization runs, so to speak. And see where the tracks are blocked or damaged. And speculate on repairs, improvements, or alternatives. This is primarily on an idea level, and concerns the flow of energy. Any and all energy in any form. Energy is matter is money is food is energy… on and on.

Another metaphor… Before the construction of a skyscraper begins, it is all ideas. Ideas in minds and on paper and computers. Drawings, numbers, calculations… The paper and computer are material, but the core is mental vision.

You mentioned the problems of how capitalism operates. Capitalism involves goods, services, and money. Money is in circulation, like the blood in a person. If the efficiency of the current circulation of money were evaluated by a doctor, the doctor would say that the circulatory system is extremely unhealthy. And they might say the civilization’s circulatory organs are so blocked that a heart attack is imminent. The doctor goes on with the bad news. The immune, digestive, and neurological systems are also strained to the point of collapse.

My theory is that those who ‘own the world’ are like someone boozing and eating themselves to death. Even when they agree with the doctor’s words, they refuse to change. Absolutely obstinate until moved by force or death.

Dozens of critical symptoms. Is there one cause? Two? Nine? Of course I’m not sure. This is all very vague. Any attempt at a big picture is going to be somewhat sketchy and vague by nature. What I’m mostly sure of is that there are critical imbalances (or illogical elements or unsustainably or unquenchable greed or… ) present, and that there is still a little time left to act.

As long as one is still alive and the world is not entirely a smoking garbage heap, there is still at least a little time.