Old Joe versus The Clown

As usual, they say what they want others to hear, irrespective of whatever else.

Russian embassies overflowing with requests to relocate to country — MFA
^{— TASS · Jun 27, 2024}

Our embassies, our consulates are literally flooded with requests for either visas, residence permits or assistance in resettlement in order to preserve themselves as representatives and bearers of traditional values. But we should also look from another angle. A huge number of people, who are under the oppression of liberal democracies, are trying to resist this. I would also like to say that when we talk about strangers - it's not about borders, it's not about the names of states or regimes <...>. Strangers are not those who differ from us, but those who aggressively impose their ideology, wanting to destroy our ideas of true values. — Zakharova

Dear followers, have you noticed any floods of people wishing to move to Russia from the "oppression of liberal democracies?"
^{— Gerashchenko · Jun 28, 2024}

Apparently, the HLA-DQA2 gene might give natural immunity, at least it seems common to people less (or not) affected by the virus.

Human SARS-CoV-2 challenge uncovers local and systemic response dynamics
^{— Christopher Chiu et al · Nature · Jun 19, 2024}

Some people never get COVID-19: researchers say a specific gene could be why
^{— Christine Birak (Akiko Iwasaki, Dawn Bowdish, Donald Vinh) · CBC · Jun 27, 2024 · 2m:1s}

Marjorie Taylor Greene Melts Down Over Australian TV’s Trump Question, Gets Cut Off
^{— Lee Moran · HuffPost · Jun 27, 2024}

I guess the response would have been that she wouldn't accept the election not going her way? Already planned to cry "Rigged" in that case? Go Ferguson. :)

Hélène Blanc (en) opines:

ENTRETIEN. Guerre en Ukraine : "Vladimir ne négocie jamais, sa proposition est un cessez-le-feu Potemkine" (en)
^{— Martin Planques · La Dépêche · Jun 14, 2024}

Your mileage may vary, though some of her claims have come up in the thread before, consistent with observations.

There goes Chersonesus (not Kherson), according to Evelina Kravchenko.

'Cultural Expropriation': Russia Steps Up Seizures Of Artifacts In Occupied Ukraine
^{— Nikolai Berg, Robert Coalson · RFE/RL · Oct 28, 2023}
Russians destroyed the ancient site of Chersonesus and erected a new building in its place
^{— Odessa Journal · Jun 27, 2024}

According to UNESCO, it's part of wider ruinage, whether accidental due to the war or intentional efforts (land grab, Russification, re-enculturation, old playbook). ^{(2001, 2015, 2022Oct21, 2022Nov8, 2023Aug9)}

Existential proofs are much easier to produce than impossibility proofs. — Tarskian

A model just requires a counter-example and it's out.
If existential proofs are the easier parts, then why do less than half the world's population believe that the Biblical Yahweh is real?

But ...

vague unknown [...] contenders [...] a difference that makes a difference

The existential claim carries the onus probandi [...] Upon repeated failure, expect disregard/dismissal of the claim — above

... was the main point. Ball's still in your court.

, you mentioned existential justification, yet I don't think a vague unknown is of much concern.

Rather, contenders include, say, the Vedic Shiva, the Avestan Ahura Mazda, the Biblical Yahweh, and a few others, where adherents/believers go by rituals, commands/rules, fate designations, speak of divine intervention/participation, etc. These are of concern to the various adherents/believers of course, and also to others due to proselytizers indoctrinators discrimination conquerors (concerted organized efforts), their political influences, and impact on societal affairs (other peoples' lives).

Shouldn't be difficult to find people with a laissez-faire (or "who knows") sort of attitude towards the former (vague unknown), and an attitude of disbelief towards whatever deities of the latter. It's a difference that makes a difference.

The existential claim carries the onus probandi (generally, existential claims are verifiable and not falsifiable, universal claims are falsifiable and not verifiable), it's not for someone else to disprove. Upon repeated failure, expect disregard/dismissal of the claim (until further notice perhaps). Though not deductive, it's a rational, reasonable response just the same, happens all the time.

Teenager jailed for helping spread whatever critique of Putin:
Turbin Arseny (— Memorial · Jun 20, 2024)
Not normal.

The International Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Shoigu and Gerasimov (Jun 25, 2024) for civilian harm and crimes against humanity.
It's unlikely that there will be a trial in the foreseeable future.

The European Court of Human Rights concluded the CASE OF UKRAINE v. RUSSIA (RE CRIMEA) (Jun 25, 2024) listing whatever Russian offenses/crimes from before they were expelled from the Council of Europe (Mar 16, 2022).
The legalities cover Feb 27, 2014 through Mar 16, 2022.

The regress of Putin's Russia has been evident for some time.

, belief that may be provisional or tentative, presumably.

, so run with your "tax is theft" idea.

@NOS4A2, so run with your idea.
No more taxes (and whatever it's all called) in your or that :point: country.
Then...? First the cartels move in then the dictatorships? Explicate what you think would happen, now that your state has done away with this kind of supposed theft and slavery.

*cough* I just noticed that we may be in the wrong thread here

@NOS4A2, there's been comments on / objections to your "tax is theft" slogan.
Maybe you missed/forgot/misunderstood/ignored them.

We may quantify space/distance with meters and time/duration with seconds, which aren't quite the same. Meters per second isn't just a (unit-less) factor, but what you might get a speeding ticket for.

Running with spatial 4d (so 5 when including time), I suppose we'd have to clarify whether
• we're 4d beings (spatially), or
• we're 3d beings in a larger 4d world,
while just perceiving 3 either way, in our thought experiment.

Implicitly, the geometry of the 4d is similar to our familiar 3d, not like Kaluza-Klein for example. This is what the neat Minecraft thing suggests.

Not the same as "parallel worlds", more like the "extra" spatial dimension (or direction) gives a continuum of 3ds.

There'd be some implications for the physics I think, whereas the mathematics itself can model either fine.

To hike further along, what about an extra temporal dimension...? :)

Seems like plain hostile acts:

Unprecedented GPS jamming attack affects 1600 aircraft over Europe
^{— Jeremy Hsu · New Scientist · Mar 29, 2024}
GPS jamming traced to Russia after flights over Europe suspended
^{— Jeremy Hsu · New Scientist · May 1, 2024}
Innovation: Recent GPS jamming in regions of geopolitical conflict
^{— Dong L Wu · GPS World · May 24, 2024}
Newest NATO Member Sweden Says Russia Disrupting Its Satellite Networks
^{— Hugo Miller, Jonas Ekblom, Greg Sullivan, Alessandro Speciale · Bloomberg · Jun 20, 2024}
Nordic satellites targeted by Russia after Sweden’s NATO accession
^{— Ryan Daws · Telecoms Tech News · Jun 21, 2024}

According to Hugo Miller, the Kremlin is testing the EU and NATO.

What (if any) would an appropriate response be?


As an aside, as long as Hungary has ongoing deals with Rosatom (Paks II) they aren't likely to accept nuclear energy sanctions against Russia. I suppose that is to be expected. Would it be (too) awkward for them to participate in other sanctions?

in the off-chance you might benefit — NOS4A2

:D me me me

In some years there won't be any you to benefit anything. Meanwhile, civilized society is fairly beneficial. (I suppose you could cancel your membership, and go live on your own?)

If US democracy is to be managed by avoidable stupidity, so be it. :meh:

Opinion | A neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America (via msn)
^{— Bobby Azarian · Raw Story · Feb 20, 2023}
Cognitive neuroscientist explains why stupidity is an existential threat to America
^{— Bobby Azarian · Alternet · Feb 21, 2023}

(↑ Lauren Boebert is featured in photos :grin:)

Many people love and depend on the state, and I wouldn't dare take it away from them. — NOS4A2

Seems like your comments elsewhere answer my inquiry better.

Taxes are not only theft, but forced labor. — NOS4A2

I am tired of people taking my money. — NOS4A2

What gives?

Unless... A tax-free state (with government), no law (enforcement), ...?

Does this stuff hold up?

Opinion | The shocking truth behind the GOP's MAGA lie machine (via msn)
^{— Thom Hartmann · Raw Story · Jun 19, 2024}

— the GOP lie that we’re in a recession (we’re in better shape, in most ways, than any time since the 1960s and inflation last month was zero while Ronald Reagan never got it below 4.1% in his entire eight years);
— Republican lies about crime being up (it’s down dramatically since Trump);
— their lies that “Democrats want elective abortion up to the moment of birth” (none have ever said that);
— Trump’s lie that the 2020 election was “stolen” from Trump by “voter fraud”;
— GOP lies that the southern border is “wide open”;
— the Republican lie that Social Security is on the verge of bankruptcy and must be saved by privatization or benefits cuts;
— their vicious lie that queer people are pedophiles targeting America’s schoolchildren; and
— their NRA lie that more and more deadly guns will keep our kids safe.

[...]

Are we talking a "post-truth" type thing? (also 2024Apr18) A BS epidemic? :D

When women are held for days and raped, when you start to rape little boys and men, when you see a series of genital mutilations, when you hear women testify about Russian soldiers equipped with Viagra, it's clearly a military strategy. — Pramila Patten (UN) · Sexual violence in the Russian invasion of Ukraine · Wikipedia

War does things to people. Hopefully The Hague also does something.

Russia says Finland's NATO accession is dangerous historic mistake (— Andrew Osborn, Jake Cordell, Mark Heinrich · Reuters · Apr 4, 2023)

encroachment on our security and on Russia's national interests — Peskov

Finland joins NATO in historic shift, Russia threatens 'counter-measures' (— Anne Kauranen, Andrew Gray, Tom Little, Essi Lehto, Kate Abnett, Jan Strupczewski, Sabine Siebold, Angus MacSwan, Mark Heinrich, Patricia Zengerle, Nick Macfie, Richard Chang, Rosalba O'Brien · Reuters · Apr 4, 2023)

Finland: Almost all the ground forces in Russia's immediate area are now in Ukraine (— Mika Mäkeläinen, Eva Sarlin, Päivi Koskinen · Yle · Jun 19, 2024)

Security, though?

, well, and/or state, or perhaps to what extent.

Your comments tend to suggest you're into

no state/government to speak of — jorndoe

, you're not going for no state/government to speak of?

you could/would instantly find yourself inside of a solid object of some sort and instantly die? — Mp202020

No, not quite. You'd still bump into things. But I suppose it depends on how the fundamental forces would work in 4 spatial dimensions.

@NOS4A2, are you genuinely looking to (conflict with the aim of) dissolving government/state (North America presumably)? If so, then what are you envisioning here?

Not quite comparable, but might otherwise be informative:

On Jun 5, a critical piece of water supply infrastructure broke in the Canadian city of Calgary (pop 1.3m).
On Jun 15, a local emergency was declared.
So far, it seems like residents are fairly good at cutting down water usage, following statements by city officials, though moving into warmer days and fixing the problems taking time.

As per Natalka (Jun 15, 2024), Kremlin-associated bots sent out 120,000 posts with fake quotes.

Also reported by Agentstvo (Jun 15, 2024).

Hard to tell what the impact is, but there's more where that came from.

, well, that's up for debate.

If you're asking my own opinion, then I tend to start out simpler. The Kremlin rolling in and grabbing what they see fit isn't acceptable. EOS. Extending and imposing the regress of Putin's Russia onto another country makes it worse, both for Ukraine and others.

But it's up to the Ukrainians. Ukraine isn't a kindergarten.

, apparently so; well, the Ukrainians agreed to remove whatever about Crimea from the deal, i.e. no mention thereof.
Seemed like they focussed more on peace guarantees (future).
I think they also differentiate Donbas becoming part of Russia and an entirely independent Donbas.

Can't decide between a tasty delicious portable nuclear bomb with a dead man's switch, and a large bottle of Jack Daniel's No 7 (plus ice cubes). :D

The New York Times got hold of some documents, did some interviews ...

Ukraine-Russia Peace Is as Elusive as Ever. But in 2022 They Were Talking.
^{— Anton Troianovski, Adam Entous, Michael Schwirtz, Andrew E Kramer, Julian E Barnes, Maria Varenikova, Gray Beltran, Rumsey Taylor · New York Times · Jun 15, 2024}
The sticking points that kept Russia and Ukraine apart
^{— Anton Troianovski, Michael Schwirtz · New York Times via Japan Times · Jun 16, 2024}

NYT publishes alleged draft of failed Russia-Ukraine peace deal (note, this is Russian state media)
^{— RT · Jun 15, 2024}
From security guarantees to territorial control, these differences led to failure of Ukraine-Russia peace talks
^{— Firstpost · Jun 16, 2024}

Someone summarized ...

• Russia withdrew previous objections to Ukraine's full membership of EU
• Ukraine proposed never to join NATO
• Russia wanted Ukraine to make Russian an official language
• Russia wanted Ukraine and all other signatories of treaties to lift 2014+ sanctions and publicly call on others to follow suit
• Ukraine was to give up Donbas and recognize Crimea as part of Russia
• Ukraine did not recognize Russian sovereignty over occupied territory (independence being a separate topic)
• Russia's ceasefire proposal stated that Ukraine withdraw all troops
• Ukraine wanted allies to be bound by a treaty to intervene if attacked again
• For Ukrainians, binding security guarantees were the basis of a potential peace agreement signed by several countries
• The Kremlin required Russia to be among guarantor states, all of who must approve response in case of attack on Ukraine
• Ukraine to be permanently neutral (with limited militarization)

More recently ...

Ukraine Peace Summit: Putin demands more Ukrainian land to end war; Kyiv rejects 'ultimatum'
^{— WION · Jun 15, 2024 · 5m:26s}

Ukraine conference joint communiqué: full text
^{— Thomas Escritt · Reuters · Jun 15, 2024}
80 Countries Back Ukraine's 'Territorial Integrity' At Swiss Peace Summit
^{— RFE/RL · Jun 16, 2024}
Ukraine summit strives for consensus, way forward uncertain
^{— Dave Graham, Sabine Siebold, Steve Holland, Thomas Escritt, Dan Peleschuk, Alvise Armellini, Matthias Williams, Mark Potter, Hugh Lawson · Reuters · Jun 16, 2024}
Swiss summit backs Ukraine’s ‘territorial integrity’, calls for peace talks with Russia
^{— France 24 · Jun 16, 2024 · 6m:59s}

Not really much new.

Can be generalized some while remaining relevant:

I believe that a state favouring one religion above others is inherently discriminatory and should progress into an actual democracy instead of the (Apartheid) ________ state it is now. The idea of a ("jewish") ________ state that favours (Jews as Jews) ________ is obviously wrong to anyone with a modicum of knowledge about human and civil rights. — Benkei

There are some in the region (including an old foe of theirs). :/


Albanese is apparently a controversial figure. According to UN Watch ...

Exposed: Francesca Albanese’s Global Influence Network Targeting Israel (— UN Watch · Jun 11, 2024)

(Did you mean "to Russia by" instead of "to Ukraine by"?)

strives to maximize the damage to Ukraine by drip feeding weapons (... just enough to prop it up at an incredible high cost to Ukraine) — boethius

Your "drip feed" theory presumes cohesive organized "feeders" with that (hidden) agenda.
Haven't really heard anyone pushing/discussing that (supposed) agenda, more like the usual debates quarrels dis/agreements bureaucracy.

More of the alternate world thing ...

Matviyenko interviewed by Skabeyeva posted by Natalka on Jun 8, 2024 and Gerashchenko on Jun 10, 2024:

Well, we didn't do anything bad to anyone. We didn't attack anyone. — Valentina Matviyenko · Jun 2024

I suppose they could head south and take a look.

Edel writes:

Why Russia Is Happy at War
^{— Anastasia Edel · The Atlantic · Jun 9, 2024}

Incidentally reminded me of some earlier comments, e.g.:

The fact is that Russia simply isn't a normal country that would try to have good relations with it's neighbors. It seeks the role it had when it was an empire/Superpower, makes huge gambles and takes extreme risks. It's extremely reckless. There simply are no benefits in trying to appease Putin. — ssu

There should be another narrative than the imperialist one when it comes to what Russia is. This narrative creates the reality were Russia sees necessary to intervene and dominate it's near abroad. First and foremost, the collapse of the Soviet Union, is seen as a mistake. An unfortunate accident. Russia is seen to be an multi-ethnic Empire and therefore it should obviously control what has been part of the Empire. And this makes everybody so nervous about Russia. It's not acting as a normal country. Yet the imperialist narrative dominates official Russia. It is fomented with the huge conspiracy that the West is against Russia, hence to defend itself, it has to attack. — ssu

For Russia to become a normal country and shed it's bellicose aggressive behaviour a humiliating defeat could do it. The Soviet Union came so splendidly and peacefully apart that people like Vladimir Putin understood it as a mistake, something you can and have to fix. — ssu

But I'm hopeful that Russia can shed it's fascist tendencies and perhaps become a normal democracy someday. But I acknowledge it will be difficult. Yet Spain and Portugal aren't anymore fascist. — ssu

Doing nothing is still a decision in the scenario.
Besides, it's easy enough to come up with a scenario where doing nothing would result in more deaths than, say, two other options.
Say, pulling lever left results in x deaths, pulling lever right results in y deaths, doing nothing results in x+y deaths.
Inaction is just one aspect of the conundrum, it's not so much about rejecting personal responsibility, more about pitching ethics against psychology, I think, or something, where there may not be a definitive answer.
Another (minor) aspect could be: swift decision-making.
Given no time to think it over, what would be the most likely decision?

Something about the Jan 6 2021 attack I'm wondering about.
What could possibly happen after the storming of the buildings?
It wasn't a swift hit-and-run type attack.

Would the mob occupy them?
I don't think that could block Congress from moving ahead later, or stop much of anything really.

Hold hostages?
From memory, most of those who worked there left or got out before the attackers took over, e.g. Pence was (predictably) ushered away by the Secret Service; there wasn't anyone stopping people from leaving (or attacking them) that I recall.

Maybe they expected that a fair portion of the US population would join in...?
Including in law enforcement and military?
That's the only way they could succeed as far as I can tell, however remote that seems.

I suppose the attack could just give an impression of a weaker, fragile state of the US government, which might be enough for some.

Attacking those buildings doesn't really come through as much of a coup d'état attempt by itself, but I might definitely be missing something.
More like a party gone haywire, though I'm sure there were some serious extremists and dedicated instigators in the mob; what about domestic terrorists or Iranian agents?
Might be more interesting to back-track what participants/organizers did, whether they got together beforehand, where (or from who) their ideas originated or otherwise were reinforced, what their motivations were, ...
I'm thinking it wasn't just the Clown that put ideas in their heads, but I'm speculating.
Further motive (who might benefit in some way), means, opportunity (nudging rioters — and shamans), ...

Someone's

extremely — boethius

full of ‹redacted›. You've been given enough evidence already, yet keep going all "Putin's Russia is :up:" whether implicitly or explicitly. :down: At least you're right that the two situations aren't quite the same.

More samples of the ☢ rattling, in concert, corroborated by whatever sources, seemingly suggesting the circle is afraid of something:

Russian Ministry (May 6, 2024) threatens the UK
Putin (May 29, 2024) threatens "the West"
Ryabkov (Jun 3, 2024) threatens the US
Sivkov (Jun 3, 2024) threatens Poland
Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens Germany
Lavrov (Jun 5, 2024) threatens French
Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens "the West"
The Kremlin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens (provokes) the US
Putin (Jun 5, 2024) threatens "the West"
Gurulyov (Jun 5, 2024) threatens the Netherlands
Putin (Jun 6, 2024) threatens the UK

I guess the response has always been: leave Ukraine be.

Toth and Sweet opines:

Russian spies, lies and sabotage are coming to America
^{— Mark Toth, Jonathan Sweet · The Hill · Jun 8, 2024}

Well, the article aligns with:

Russia’s Threat Puts Security at Forefront of European Elections (4m:35s interview)
^{— Konrad Krasuski, Piotr Skolimowski, Natalia Ojewska · Bloomberg · Jun 4, 2024}

theiyr're
they're their there

that must of been quite something

I'm better then you

youre
you're your

whe're
we're were where

Yet if they do have an ancestral homeland it is in Africa. — BitconnectCarlos

Go a bit further back and we're (likely) all Africans.