• The "thing" about Political Correctness
    :cool:

    The growth of the right-wing is not confined to a couple of murderous hicks but to murderous apparatuses of power that are growing all across the West.StreetlightX

    Yes, you are right, sadly. Bannon, Trump's former right hand man, is behind a lot of it. Koch brothers as well. But I am sure there are also many others globally. The plutocracy of the rentier class ... and the chest-beating chumps who support them like lemmings, politically and financially.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Your views about him were obvious even from the OP.ssu

    Yes, and they are borne out to my satisfaction by a wealth of scholarly critique and observations of his videos.

    Meanwhile, no one has yet answered this, the point of the OP, which has nothing in particular to do with whether or not JP would like it very much if women's studies departments were to close (which is not in the least doubt).:

    Critics of extreme PC do have a point, but what I am concerned about is that they
    also seem to be rejecting PC at large and
    in doing so are inadvertently feeding into the deeply regressive political movements
    in evidence throughout the world
    (e.g., Farage, LePen, Hungarian leadership, Brazilian leadership, Trump, new xenophobic legislation in Quebec, etc.),
    which ought to be much more of a concern to them
    since it is far more deadly.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Yes, Marxism is one paradigm through which to view the world.

    The default that is not going to help us, however, is the position that treats society as some kind of covenant between independently self-socialized brains-in-boxes rationally maximizing their self-interest.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    IMHO, JP is a loon. So I have to wonder why he has so many fans, when his scholarship has been resoundingly critiqued. There are a number of sane articles that fairly illustrate his shortcomings (and yes, a few less than reasonable ones that present him unfairly).

    His videos show a histrionic man who makes non-sequiturs, tosses out red herrings and makes unsubstantiated statements about human nature going back to our primate ancestry, even our fishier ancestry. He thinks PC is going to lead us off the rails to Totalitarian Maoism or A Radical Feminist Revolution that will set civilization back years. If that's not sensationalist! There is just no doubt he would like to shut down women's studies and ethnic studies. He expresses his distain every chance he gets. It's very reasonable to think that given the mess of his ideas he is popular because his take on politics vindicates the regressive views of a lot of people.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    It's not sensationalism. You've drunk the KoolAid. No point in the discussion.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    You're clutching at straws. I'm not sure why you're not seeing that the point of this is not whether or not JP withdrew his plans for a website attempting to get subjects like ethnic studies and women's studies sidelined because they fall under what he thinks is "post-modern marxism" but that he made the attempt to blackball these subjects (and been willing to invest a lot of money in it to do so, BTW). Why do you defend him to the point of seeming a bit, well, ridiculous, to be honest? Even if as you say the site was "simply going to be a review site" what on earth would be the motivation?
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    From the article ssu quoted: "In a YouTube video posted to his personal account, he highlighted English literature, anthropology, sociology, women’s studies and ethnic studies as the types of courses “that have to go.” He took down the plan for the website, but so what. Women's studies and ethnic studies are bugbears for him and remain so. He more likely had second thoughts because once he'd started on this course people rightly called this proponent of "free speech" on his hypocrisy.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Women's studies and ethnic studies "have to go" - as ssu quoted JP above.Izat So
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness


    Irrelevant to the main point.

    Women's studies and ethnic studies "have to go" - as ssu quoted JP above.Izat So

    far more to the point, which was that people can criticize PC extremism while seeing value in PC overall, rather than hammering away at everything and anyone PC to the glee of the growing band of xenophobes and misogynists everywhere.Izat So
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    there's a convolution.Shamshir

    Nothing convoluted about trying to avoid racist and sexist language.

    It's doubtful that any realisation or evolution of the brain is dependent upon cultureShamshir
    Several researchers in the field would disagree with you.

    Here's a reading list if you'd like to learn more:

    Laland, Darwin's Unfinished Symphony, 2017

    C. Everett, Numbers and the Making of Us,

    Donald, A Mind So Rare, 2001

    Seems a consilience is taking shape in the field now.

    If you could, do please elaborate on how women are emerging with their voices, as I don't see any difference from where they were before.Shamshir

    Well women couldn't vote. They were paid much less than men for the same job. If they married, their husbands became the owners of their property. They spent most of their time working in the home while men spent most of their time in the public sphere. Among the men, the privileged were wealthy landowners, the rich, the well connected, who set the laws, the norms of public behaviour and the stories about what women could and could not achieve given their "frailer" minds and bodies. Ideas deeply rooted in history often take centuries to be transcended, so the narrative is still mostly the old patriarchal one, but with the invention of the pill, factory produced food, labour saving devices in the home with the introduction of electricity - with these technologies - women came to occupy positions in public more and more. Optimistically and I think more realistically, the narrative will resume its progress after this backlash to rather primal patriarchal behaviours or we will just end up in a tribalized nightmare world. This short summary of Obama's recent talk in Ottawa seems pretty dead on vis the last point.


    So as I was saying: nobody is seeking to shut down Feminist Studies departments.ssu

    If you read that article, it would basically be a "review" website, where the reviews are focused on a particular, anti-SJW perspective.Terrapin Station

    I read the article, listened to the interview blah blah blah and know this threat was withdrawn - but it was made. Women's studies and ethnic studies "have to go" - as ssu pasted above. The point still stands. If you want to get pedantically literal about it, sufficiently declining enrolment would result in the end of a department. And now far more to the point, which was that people can criticize PC extremism while seeing value in PC overall, rather than hammering away at everything and anyone PC to the glee of the growing band of xenophobes and misogynists everywhere.

    BTW he also threatened to sue Kate Manne for her critical book review of 12 Rules in the NYT. Freedom of speech. Ha.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    nobody is seeking to shut down Feminist Studies departmentsssu

    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2017/11/10/u-of-t-profs-proposed-website-would-target-professors-teaching-womens-and-ethnic-studies.html

    Is it just the new buzzword to peddle the old under the guise of the new, like with 'bio' and 'organic?Shamshir

    The term "political correctness" has been around since at least the 80s. It's not new. It just means speaking more considerately about people who happen to be political minorities. The reason why PC speech is thought to be helpful is because we are all influenced by the discursive themes in our culture. This affects people's opportunities and liberty. So if minority people are being insidiously dismissed (or outrightly ranted against by racists with a legitimate platform like Trump) then this becomes the norm culture wide. There may be individual variations but averages will prevail.

    Human brains coevolve with culture. Our brains have evolved so that we cannot fully realize our brains' design without thorough acculturation. (It is our external memory storage - our collective, cumulative memory per neuro-paeleontonogist Merlin Donald and others.) Culture changes when technology changes and we need to reorganize to be able to use it effectively. So today, we are moving to a global economy and an economy where most of the work that was done traditionally by women in the home is unnecessary and women are emerging with their voices into the public sphere. This is a public sphere that is informed by hundreds of years of public discourse narrated largely by privileged men with exponentially increasing availability of memes. It will take a while for us to overcome the holdover biases we maintain about the public good, power and who has the right to it. Right now we're going through a backlash. That's why IMO it makes sense to call out Peterson et al as SQWs - Status Quo Warriors. But we can't stay here.

    what you see as a problem with PC extremism? Can you give an example?ssu

    Well, I don't think groups of people thumping on doors to drown out Peterson's talk does anything other than vindicate this fossil to his fans. I don't think it's right that professors should lose their jobs for not participating in a walkout. Things like that. Don't become the intolerance you profess to hate.

    Meanwhile I think this is where we need to move away from in order to thrive as a species and not wreck the planet in the meantime...:

    Lone Cowboy Individualism, Military style Tribalism and Nationalism (zero sum competition)
    Domination of Nature
    The sense of being entitled not to have to edit one's own pronouncements or check one's own behaviours, or to receive more than to give care, regardless of effects on the wellbeing of others.
    Anti-Intellectualism

    and where we need to move toward:
    An understanding of our interconnectedness (individual human potential cannot be realized apart from society, culture, economics and technology)
    Pluralism and Diversity enhances culture (not a zero sum but a win-win)
    Environmentalism, Sustainable Development
    A value placed on education and genuine expertise.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    There's simply a mismatch in Izat So's basic argument that people shouldn't talk about PC issues because...there's right-wing terrorismssu

    SSU, you have misrepresentated my position. I do think people should talk about PC issues because I think that there are some problems with PC extremism. What I don't get is why pundits seem so much more concerned about the relatively piddling cases of political correctness gone bad than the rise of the right with its potentially deadly xenophobia and misogyny. Furthermore, the pundits, "thought leaders", inadvertently appear to the xenophobes and the misogynists to give them some legitimation. They can talk about tempering political correctness rather than trying to shut down Feminist Studies departments.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    the thread was called: "The "thing" about Political Correctness", not "Reason why right-wing terrorism is rising".ssu

    From the OP
    It seems to me that those concerned with the potential negative effects of Political Correctness to the extreme, such as Jordan Peterson and various pundits, ought to be far, far more concerned with a rise in rightwing extremism, and their unwitting contributions toward it in the broader public.Izat So


    it's not about leftists imposing PC culture and more about culture, in general, not dealing well with controversy. A problem that's fairly evident on many levels and not limited to PCEcharmion

    You've got plenty of pundits out there shouting down political correctness. Social Justice has become a pejorative, thanks to their efforts. Their voices seem to be much louder in the culture at large than the voices of so-called SJWs. "Dark web" be blowed.

    People want free speech without concequences, apparently.StreetlightX

    Yes, they don't want to start having to take people into consideration when they open their mouths that they formerly did not.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Jobs/careers lost, ostracization, black listing, etc.Terrapin Station

    Extreme PC is relatively rare, in my experience, and I can't understand why anyone would be offended with social justice, unless they are in some sense feeling threatened by the rising fortunes of women and minorities. I have no problem with a charter of rights. I don't think people should be fired from their jobs because they lapse into assholeness from time to time however. And the evidence shows the right is more dangerous than the extreme PC front. Has Antifa shot anyone yet?Izat So
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    good luck and good byeI like sushi

    Cheers.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    How the "can't" is effectively enforcedTerrapin Station

    How is it enforced? A few frowns, scowls, even a finger now an again, a cop you pissed off using it as an excuse to arrest you on a bogus charge?
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Again, notice the chart here. What it tells that acts of terrorism were more frequent also in the US earlier than now:ssu

    And declining until 2016 - but it's been rising since Trump - actually since 2015.

    ↪Maw So? Do you mean to say that the above cartoon is offensive but okay because it doesn’t include you? Are you bolstering my position on purpose or was it a slip up on your part?I like sushi

    Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think Maw's cartoon was meant as a caricature of your view.

    I too, consider overreactions to equine homophobia to be an existential threat to Western CivilisationStreetlightX

    And so should we all.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Pretty much everything Maw said.Maw

    In case you didn't copy, yes, agreed.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    B-b-b-b-ut I can't make tasteless jokes anymore and that's the most important thing!StreetlightX

    Indeed!

    _______________


    Now, some stats since Trump was elected:

    "On Wednesday, the Anti-Defamation League released a report finding that attackers with ties to right-wing extremist movements killed at least 50 people in 2018. That was close to the total number of Americans killed by domestic extremists, meaning that the far right had an almost absolute monopoly on lethal terrorism in the United States last year. That monopoly would be total if, in one case, the perpetrator had not “switched from white supremacist to radical Islamist beliefs prior to committing the murder.”

    "The number of fatalities is 35 percent higher than the previous year, and it marks the fourth-deadliest year for such attacks since 1970. In fact, according to the ADL, white supremacists are responsible for the majority of such attacks “almost every year.” The 2018 attacks include the one at Pittsburgh’s Tree of Life synagogue by a man who blamed Jews for the migrant caravan, the mass shooting at a yoga studio by an “incel” obsessed with interracial dating, and the school massacre in Parkland, Florida, carried out by a student who wished that “all the Jews were dead.”
    __________________________

    "An analysis of the Global Terrorism Database by researchers at the University of Maryland published in 2017 shows a “sharp increase” in the share of attacks by right-wing extremists
    the trend persisted in 2017, when most attacks in the US were committed by right-wing extremists

    "Out of 65 incidents last year, 37 were tied to racist, anti-Muslim, homophobic, anti-Semitic, fascist, anti-government, or xenophobic motivations.

    "That list includes an attack by neo-Nazi extremist James Fields against a crowd of counter-protestors in Charlottesville, which left one person dead. It also includes attacks against a gay bar in Puerto Rico, mosques in Washington, Texas, and Florida, and a vehicle decorated with Jewish iconography in New York.

    "In the same period, seven attacks were linked to Islamic extremists, and 11 attacks were inspired by left-leaning ideologies.

    "That right-wing activity is fueling a surge in terrorism in the US. Overall, the US had only six attacks a decade ago, but 65 in 2017. The number of fatalities is also increasing, in contrast to a global decrease in terror attacks."

    the right is more dangerous than the extreme PC frontIzat So

    I don't think that neo-nazis are going to take over the US but the shift to the right and the direction it has been taking since Trumpspeak (and apologetic punditry) has intentionally or unintentionally normalized a lot of mean spirited scapegoating.

    terrorism isn't on the rise in the long runssu

    No, it isn't - except in the US since Trump and the largest proportion by far is right wing - hopefully whoever succeeds him will reverse the trend. And it's not likely to be reversed by pundits who appeal largely to those with expectations of privilege with their talk about the threats of political correctness to civil society.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    First of all I don't think that the extreme right is on the risessu


    WP - Right Wing Violence is on the Rise

    The Rise of Right Wing Extremism in the US

    Economist: Right Wing Terrorism on the Rise in the West

    Right Wing Violence rising in the US

    New Yorker: It is time to confront right wing terrorism

    CBC: Extremist groups and hate crimes growing in Canada

    "In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders," Pitcavage says.

    Extreme PC is relatively rare, in my experience, and I can't understand why anyone would be offended with social justice, unless they are in some sense feeling threatened by the rising fortunes of women and minorities. I have no problem with a charter of rights. I don't think people should be fired from their jobs because they lapse into assholeness from time to time however. And the evidence shows the right is more dangerous than the extreme PC front. Has Antifa shot anyone yet?
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    the simple deduction from those pictures is in quite in line with your reasoning with JPssu

    I didn't "deduce" - I read about the history of Pepe and listened to JP's interview with Wendy Mesley where he justifies his association with the image, knowing its association with the alt right. I know JP is not alt right, if that's what you're suggesting. But he is known to be attractive to some sects of the alt right.

    So if we look up the history of the swastika vis a vis Finland we will not be "deducing" anything from the pictures but learning about how they happen to be there. Seems the Finns were concerned about the Soviets and allied with the Nazis insofar as they were fighting the Soviets, but were not forced to submit to nazi rule. It is still used as an air force icon. Meanwhile there is an active alt right presence in Finland that uses the German version of the Swastika, as in many places.

    Disgruntled manhood with a zero sum mentality reacts badly in the face of up and coming minorities and the increasing presence of women in the public sphere when their fortunes are insecure and they are not making expected gains in economic status. Resentment is a large part of the disdain for PC as well as the rise of the alt right. Disappointed expectations also explains the rise in suicides, the opioid crisis, and plenty of other social ailments. As has been said many times, when you have an expectation of privilege (reasonable or not), equality looks like oppression. Hence all the trumped up hoopla about PC.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    So in summary:

    What gives rise to the alt right it is increasing inequality combined with a propensity of those who have lost economic security and social status for scapegoating.Izat So

    The rise of the far right is due to the extreme left [extreme PC, presumably] enabling them.I like sushi
    Income disparity has always led to identity politics on the the right and on the left.I like sushi

    Presumably on the right it would mean scapegoating.

    Pundits' concerns with extreme PC inadvertently feed the alt right beast.Izat So

    What a heavy PC tilt does is give voice to the extreme ends of the societal discontent.I like sushi

    You might think that pundits are merely trying to temper a "heavy PC tilt" - perhaps Fry is the most reasonable exemplar - but given the fact other PC critics are latched onto by the right (vis Peterson's vanity shots), they are not so much tempering the PC as they are emboldening the right.

    Since the alt right is far more basic threat to democracy than extreme political correctness, pundits should spend more time warning people of the dangers of the alt right than they do the extremes of political correctness and inadvertently feeding the beast.Izat So

    The money is backing the right and we have more to fear from the right than extreme PC, as so much right wing violence and the relative absence of PC violence has attested in recent decades. Extreme PC just manages to shoot itself in the foot.

    So that outlines our points of disagreement.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    I said EXTREME not merely PCI like sushi

    Yeah, so did I. What of it? AND I don't think it's fundamentally the PC that are pushing the right, regardless of whether they "push the narrative into law and order".
    Pepe is a joke meme meant to poke fun at people on the left. It is spewed across the internet all the time and NOT racist.I like sushi

    No, it is not that innocuous, and in fact JP acknowledges its use in his interview with Wendy Mesley (linked in a previous post).

    it appears you don’t want to budge in the slightest or understand that I have answered your OPI like sushi

    You're not budging at all. Actually you have not responded to this:
    What gives rise to the alt right it is increasing inequality combined with a propensity of those who have lost economic security and social status for scapegoating.Izat So

    You have not really shown how growign income disparity combined with a propensity for scapegoating is not a more fundamental cause and extreme PC just the amplifier.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    It's not so much economic inequality as it is fear of economic inequality. We're no longer in recession, but the market failures of the last decade (eg: the 2008 eal-estate bubble) have caused many to doubt the path we're on (and both sides tend to disagree about what path we're actually on, let alone should be on).VagabondSpectre

    if extreme political correctness feeds the beast...VagabondSpectre

    I didn't say it was extreme political correctness that feeds the beast, it's the pundits' endlessly complaining how PC is a threat to freedom that inadvertently feeds it.

    Pundits' concerns with extreme PC inadvertently feed the alt right beast.Izat So

    So it's not the least surprising that Jordan Peterson has a large unsavoury following of alt right supporters.

    This is not photoshopped. He did an interview with CBC's Wendy Mesley explaining it. c5d.jpg

    This was taken in New Zealand:

    methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fe875bd7e-4f2b-11e9-a278-59bc5c47bf2d.jpg?crop=1179%2C663%2C37%2C132&resize=685


    If the alt-right would not exist without extreme political correctness to react to and provide their emotional justification, would we be better off without extreme political correctness?VagabondSpectre

    If you've been listening, they would indeed exist without extreme PC, just as they existed in Germany after WWI because they felt they were losing ground to people who were "supposed to be minorities". If you expect privilege (especially if you don't have it), equality looks like oppression. All I'm saying about PC is that pundits are inadvertently fuelling the fire of the alt right. They're missing the point in a big way. Also look at the link I posted about Americans shooting themselves in the foot to maintain racial hierarchy.

    For the umpteenth time, what creates the resentment that fuels the alt right in the first place is the siphon-up economics of the rent-seeking economy - the same ponzi scheme of the type that gave rise to the financial meltdown of 2008 and which Trump is keen to continue to champion and enable.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Look, you’re guilty of the kind of thing I’m talking about. You want to make me the enemy and so read what I write as saying something I’ve not actually said.I like sushi

    You did say that extreme PC is what gives rise to the right wing as I quoted you in my last reply. You might have changed your mind, or your initial statement might not have been clear. Of course I don't want to make you "the enemy". I have openly expressed my concern about extreme PC all along (although my concern is not nearly so great as yours seems to be). So tell me this - do you agree with the following, which remains my position:

    • What gives rise to the alt right it is increasing inequality combined with a propensity of those who have lost economic security and social status for scapegoating.
    • Pundits' concerns with extreme PC inadvertently feed the alt right beast.
    • Since the alt right is far more basic threat to democracy than extreme political correctness, pundits should spend more time warning people of the dangers of the alt right than they do the extremes of political correctness and inadvertently feeding the beast.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    I’ve only talked about two points: the effect of the internet and extremists pushing PC speech.

    I certainly don’t regard these as the only factors worth considering and that there is any one underlying factor that is apparent in every nation
    I like sushi

    The rise of the far right is due to the extreme left enabling them.I like sushi

    There's where we disagree. The rise of the right is not precipitated by political correctness but by scapegoating. Resentment of PC - and PC has been around for decades - begins with fear and anger at being at the losing end of a widening income gap and ends with blaming minorities instead of the mafia plutocrats who are actively amplifying this on social media. You are looking at the effects, not the causes. Beware of Bannon and others of his ilk. It's a sad world when people are duped into thinking of social justice as a pejorative.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Sushi, I think we still disagree on the reasons for the rise of the alt right internationally and the extent to which extreme pc is a threat to freedom.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    That is that Trump says plenty of idiotic things yet people are still trying to construe some phrase of wording as being either ‘racist’ or ‘fascist’ when it is clearly, at best, a stretch.I like sushi

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/trump-racism-comments/588067/
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    "The rich Right" knows what side of the bread their butter is on, and they work consistently and effectively to keep the butter as thick as possible. They are pretty successful. I doubt if "the rich Right" spends any time at all worrying about "the left", especially the pronominal left that is just a place holder for some discontented college students...etc.Bitter Crank

    Yup
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Well Sushi, I don't think extreme PC gives rise to rightwing extremism because I don't think it's that common outside of a university campus, Rowan Atkinson's "thousands" seems a bit of an exaggeration based on the kind of things I've witnessed or read about in the news. Atkinson's accounts are the first I've heard of it outside a university. That's not to say that I disagree with Atkinson on the broader issue in principle, but that I doubt that extreme PC has had anything like the kind of influence in fomenting the politely named "alt right" as the social media bots hired by the rentier class have had, combined with the increasing economic insecurity of those not in the 1%, not unlike the situation with Germany after WWI. And because of that, I'm far more concerned about the rise of the far right, evident all over the world, than I am about whether someone is allowed to call a police horse gay, although that in itself is perturbing.

    You might meanwhile find this effort on the part of one famous pundit to discredit certain university disciplines interesting. And this article makes me wonder why that same famous pundit made all the hype about the law. What was the motivation to "misrepresent", I wonder?
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Inside and outside the university. It's unfortunately human nature to want to control other people in many different ways.Terrapin Station

    Do people really feel so oppressed by the stigma against making racist jokes or their refusal to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple that they would fear PC more than being shot up in a church or mosque? There's the sense of entitlement talking.Izat So
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    I don't know if I really understand any sentence you wrote there, and I'm not sure what any of it has to do with my comment.Terrapin Station

    The concerns you raise are real within the university.

    Pundits can inadvertently fuel the distrust of PC and feed into the power agenda of less wholesome actors on the right. Pundits ought to start looking at the economic shift to neoliberal economics that has led to wage stagnation, a growing income divide and a ponzi cycle of real estate bubbles and collapses that have resulted in a larger underclass. They ought to consider that disaffected people tend to scapegoat "the other". The ubiquitous punditry against PC only serves to fuel the flames outside of the university. They're surrounded by wildfire but are trying to repair a dripping tap.
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    Maw, I agree with your points.

    Sorry sushi, you're not really making much sense in terms of explaining the rise of the right as a reaction against political correctness.

    Why rise against political correctness, if not for the idea that others below the historically more privileged in society are cutting into their slice of the power pie?

    Why ignore the deliberate, documented efforts on the part of Bannon et al by means of social media bots and rightwing organizations devoting huge effort and money to trashing "the left"...? And their being heavily funded by the rentier parasites. Meanwhile extreme PC (when it becomes what it wants to protect people against) seems centred around some university campuses among some disciplines when members who, unknown to them (or not), have become members of Bannon's army come to give talks.

    What on earth does left mean? Scandi style government? Or a respect for human rights, regardless of gender or colour? What's wrong with either? Where have people come to this idea that the left represents a taking away of freedom? Not having to pay all of my salary for medical treatments would give me more liberty. Tax breaks for the rich do not result in less oppression because fewer social services does not mean less oppression, except it might appear to be to men and their women of the lower classes who have become even less well off due to their own voting choices and are blaming those below them due to the influence of plutocracy championing news channels such as Fox News of the equivalent in other countries.

    Do people really feel so oppressed by the stigma against making racist jokes or their refusal to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple that they would fear PC more than being shot up in a church or mosque? There's the sense of entitlement talking.
  • What is logic? How is it that it is so useful?
    DeMorgan's laws are used by electricians to plan your household switches. That's useful, no?
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    What complicates matters is that these real concerns blend in so well with reactionary apologetics for the rule of the parasitic plutocrats. I haven't seen any genuine thought put to it on the part of the well-paid pundits who defend against PC extremism aimed at the kinds of social conditions created by bogus economic strategies that only redound to those already gorging on the rest of our efforts. Those that have lost out - due NOT TO PC but to the shitemeisters of the parasitic rentier class - feel they have allies in the scapegoating that they indulge in. I don't think that is the intention of those railing about SJWs but that is the result. They are working against their aims without realizing it ... or?
  • Christian Environmentalism
    Is this thread reaction baiting or are you for real? (and if so I despair - note the inclusive V).
  • The "thing" about Political Correctness
    OK, fair enough, yes, social media is bound to be polarizing, yes, people have a choice on how they respond to things (up to a point talk of a culture of victimhood is reasonable but only up to a point - there is also a culture of blaming the victim and "himpathy") and no, governments don't have a right to tell you what to say (and I don't know of any western government that does - lawyers have refuted JP's assertion that the Canadian charter of rights would force him to use a person's chosen gender pronoun).

    I'm pretty convinced that the rise of the right as fomented by agents of global plutocrats such as Putin, Koch et al is to get the people they have ripped off to blame minorities. Neoliberal economic policies serve those plutocrats very well (but no one else). This is faaaar more dangerous than any extreme PC sentiments amongst undergraduate social science and humanities students and hardly anyone is saying anything.

    But what I'm really trying to get at with the question is whether there is too much emphasis put on PC and not enough on the rise of the right, which is being fomented by Bannon and Koch bots, as we know (amongst whom we might include Farage). The academic discussion on PC is relevant within the uni but it serves to supplement the bad bots outside of it. In an era ripe for scapegoating there does need to be a consideration of what kind of speech will lead to the rise of malevolent social movements such as Proud Boys, etc.

    PS there are links within my posts here to further information.
  • What's your ideal regime?
    Well, looking at things uncharacteristically optimistically, we know that cognition and culture coevolve, so if there's nothing to be gained from corrupt behaviour or power-seeking for power's sake, then the crappier aspects of human behaviour might just fritter out for the most part and come to be seen like human sacrifice or cannibalism (i.e., as psychopathic), which were more popular and acceptable - even supposed to be divinely sanctioned - in the past.
  • What's your ideal regime?
    Makes use of technology to rid the world of mind numbing jobs. We've found a healthy alternative to fossil fuels or any kind of fuel that disrupts the planet negatively. There is deep respect for the environment. Everyone has a Universal Basic Income. People do not tribalize around memes. People are not interested in superficial differences but enjoy differences of opinion. Education is relevant and exciting to people of all ages. People transcend merely instrumental thinking to concentrate on their growth needs, including how to maintain the conditions of doing so. There is an ongoing conversation about the best way of governing, given nothing can be actually ideal. Ethics and philosophy interest people. People keep abreast of scientific debates and find a meaningful worldview that aligns with the age of the planet and the evolution of humans and our ongoing interdependency of ourselves and nature. Public policy is evidence based with the aim of balancing human thriving with respect for the environment. War is a thing of the past. People are kind, decent, and able to use their skills in beautiful and useful ways. But for now, I'd say Scandi countries, based on the evidence.
  • The problems of philosophy...
    @ghost said

    How much of philosophy is left over once part of it becomes literature-mysticism-politics and the other part of it becomes science? Others who know more might illuminate me here, but it seems to me that obsessing over language is largely what's left over.

    Surprised no one has mentioned Dennett on "Chmess" yet as far as I could see. I linked a short account if you're interested. It seems he has a partial answer to his question and makes a distinction between genuine problems (which are interesting to people outside of philosophy departments) and spurious problems due to philosophical inbreeding.

    (As others have mentioned, a pleasure to see a reasonable and decent philosophical discussion).