Ok but since you don't create yourself, even the actions that are caused by this impulse are ultimately caused by something you have not created. I don't argue against compatibilist free will but against libertarian free will. The concept of libertarian free will, whether articulated or just felt, is the principal driving force of individualism because it ascribes to the individual ultimate control (and responsibility) for his actions. — litewave

The concept of libertarian free will, whether articulated or just felt, is the principal driving force of individualism because it ascribes to the individual ultimate control (and responsibility) for his actions. — litewave

But you can't freely create that impulse - or even if you can, you need another impulse to create it, etc. — litewave

Many hospitals in the US have walk-in urgent care clinics. "Urgent care" is a couple of steps below emergency room care; however, since it is in the hospital a patient can be diverted from urgent to ER care easily. — Bitter Crank

All that helps avoid the higher charge and maybe longer wait to see a doctor in clinic. — Bitter Crank

But the U of Minnesota medical service offers same day clinic appointments with a doctor -- probably not the doctor you want to see, but... can't have everything. — Bitter Crank

You see, it all boils down to the illusion and golden calf of (especially) the Western civilization - libertarian free will. By significantly separating the individual from the rest of reality, we get the illusion that the individual is in some sense ultimately independent and in control of his physical or mental actions. On the other hand, this separation "unleashes" the individual - it enables the individual to be active and creative and thus create wealth. So we need the market system that unleashes individuals but we also need a system of redistribution of wealth in order to help the unlucky ones.

Helping the unlucky ones is a moral imperative that some believe comes from God, but I think it can also be explained by a naturally evolved feeling of empathy. This feeling evolved - that is, was selected for - because it was useful for the survival and reproduction of beings, in that it facilitates social bonds and cooperation and, more generally, the ability of mental integration/synthesis. Without helping the unlucky ones the social system becomes strained and fragmented and eventually even the lucky ones lose. — litewave

You need the right ideas or insights to occur to you - luck. — litewave

Of course, but I didn't even think about that. Even in an uncorrupted market economy you need to be lucky in order to get wealth. And it is morally not ok for the unlucky to die in the streets while the lucky enjoy lavish lifestyles. — litewave

You need to get the education or training and have the ability to absorb it - luck. You need to have the impulse and ability to adopt the right mindset - luck. You need to have the impulse to exercise and the ability/energy to persevere in it - luck. — litewave

I don't expect that my design for a utopian economy in a utopian society will ever exist, not even remotely, because the conditions required to establish a de novo utopian economy will never exist.

I don't like regimentation either, whether it is within a large corporation or small group. Utopian systems have hidden regimentation built in -- everyone would have to conform, whatever the shape of the utopia. Universal peace and contentment has the same problem: the only way to keep it going is for everyone to be in a strait-jacket of peace and contentment regimentation.

So why bother talking about utopian schemes in the first place? It's a way of highlighting the dystopian features of reality. — Bitter Crank

I don't know whether Tolkien was familiar with Chesterton and Belloc -- two of the English Catholic promoters of distributivism. — Bitter Crank

huge, regimented, military-industrial multinational complexity, — Bitter Crank

I have been reading a biography of Lenin: The Man, The Dictator, and the Master of Terror by Victor Sebestyen, and at least under the Tzars, Siberian exile wasn't always that bad. Lenin lived modestly with his wife in a small but adequate cabin, was free to go hiking and hunting (he never succeeding in bagging any game), could correspond -- as long as what he had to say got past the Okhrana censors, and so on. Lenin happened to land in one of the pleasant circles of hell. Jews, for instance, were sent to places far to the north, near the Arctic Circle, where exile tended to start at wretched and go downhill to fatal. — Bitter Crank

You lived in England... don't know whether you ever availed yourself of the National Health Service... I just read This Is Going To Hurt, an account of young doctor Kay's experience there. He praises the quality of care delivered, but working in the service was something of a nightmare. He's very sarcastic about the stupidity of both patients and institution, so it's quite enjoyable. — Bitter Crank

So what is the most important factor in getting wealth? — litewave

Willingness to work hard? — litewave

For that you need to have sufficient mental or physical energy - and how do you create that? — litewave

Even that seems to be a matter of luck, in the final analysis. — litewave

You're missing the point. Value, in economic terms, is ill-conceived. — creativesoul

We could do without almost all of what capitalism has afforded us. — creativesoul

In fact, it's not hard to make a case that the quality of goods and services has suffered horribly at the hands of those looking to 'add value'... — creativesoul

The problem is that much of wealth creation and distribution is based on luck. — litewave

have the conditions to provide that for which there is high demand. — litewave

Conditions such as talent, health, intelligence, and suitable environment. — litewave

not deleted, never written. — Bitter Crank

No, they won't grow at all because outside of Council Coordination, you will find no supplies, space, energy, markets, or anything else. Those who persist in trying to subvert council coordination will not be looked upon kindly. — Bitter Crank

There is no excuse for not creating one which provides everyone with an opportunity to live a comfortable life. — creativesoul

You framed the job in terms of adding no value. Bullshit. I value the conversation. — creativesoul

Then why did you say that what I said was crap? That was a senseless insult. — Metaphysician Undercover

Attempting to understand "the genesis of the terms" is pointless if what one is interested in is the meaning which Aristotle gave the terms. Why would you look at all the different usage in the time around Aristotle, if what you are interested in what Aristotle meant by those words? Why would someone look at how you and various other people use a word if what they are interested in is what I mean when I use that word. So really, what you said is what is crap. — Metaphysician Undercover

Aristotelian terms like "matter", "form", "potential", and "actual", are developed through volumes of consistent usage. The key point here is consistency. So as one reads the usage in different books of Aristotle, in different fields of study, the meaning of the terms starts to come through, from these various applications of the same terminology. — Metaphysician Undercover

No. — Sapientia

Workers on an assembly line generally get paid without respect to the value of the part they are adding. They are all doing essentially the same task. — Bitter Crank

In a socialist economy, marketing and advertising are less important. — Bitter Crank

Where production for need, rather than production for profit prevails, whipping up enthusiasm for new cars, new can openers, new whatever, would not be practiced. — Bitter Crank

Products for which there is a clear need do not require a lot of sales efforts. — Bitter Crank

I would imagine distribution would be handled by a work group much like the one that made the cars in the first place. Distribution and sale completion are important, but in a socialist economy, maximizing sales isn't the point, so the rewards for this work group would be determined by the work group themselves. — Bitter Crank

No, I've considered the facts, and I remain unable to conceive of a situation like that I described. Even Superman wouldn't deserve such a high percentage, let alone someone of a much lesser stature. That's insane. — Sapientia

And making a whip of cords, he stood back and did nothing. They all remained in the temple, with the sheep and oxen. The coins remained in the money-changers and the tables stayed exactly where they were. Business carried on as usual,
with no disturbances. — Trump 2:15

And making a whip of cords, he stood back and whipped them screaming "Faster, work faster you scoundrels!" They all remained in the temple, with the sheep and oxen. The coins started flowing like tremendous rivers of gold and the money-changers and their tables stayed exactly where they were. Business was tremendous that day. — Trump 2:15

Why is Phillip Green so despised? — Sapientia

I don't need to do that. Someone with greater expertise can do that. And I don't need to rely on gut feeling and prejudice. Anyone with common sense can, from observation, rightly conclude that a building has collapsed. But you'd need an expert to assess with due precision what exactly caused the building to collapse. Are you suggesting that you do not possess this common sense? — Sapientia

Then you must think that he has earned that amount. How is that possible? It's only possible within a selfish and greedy framework. — Sapientia

And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

I have thought about that. Here are my thoughts: a footballer is considered valuable insofar as you enjoy watching, or making money out of, men or women playing a game which involves kicking around a ball on a field whilst lots of people stare at this on a screen or in the stands and moronically cheer, jeer, chant, and gesticulate. This is nowhere near as valuable as protecting the public and saving lives. — Sapientia

How much would workers get if they owned the factory and profit wasn't an issue. It might work out something like this:

A factory employing 500 workers turns out 100 cars a day. The cars market value is $8,000 each, or $800,000. How much should each factory worker be paid, per day? $1,600? No. — Bitter Crank

- the cost of obtaining the daily supply of raw materials and parts (steel, aluminum, rubber, plastic, copper, upholstery, engines, glass, motors, fans, pumps, fasteners, etc. or 20% of retail) approximately $160,000

- the cost of daily operating the factory (electricity, water, gas, etc.) approximately $5,000 (a guess)

- preparing for the cost of replacing worn out tools and plant (approximately 1%) $8,000

- contributions to the cost of operating society (roads, railroads, schools, hospitals, services, etc. 20% of expected income) $160,000

- cash reserve to pay for supplies, unexpected or unbudgeted costs (accidents, supply price spikes, income shortfalls, cash purchases; 5%) $40,000 — Bitter Crank

Without having to earn a profit for stockholders or highly paid executives, workers in this factory would earn $106.76 per hour. $427,000 after expenses / (500 workers x 8 hours) = $106.75 per hour. — Bitter Crank

Maybe too few of their cars are sold, or aluminum and rubber become much more expensive. — Bitter Crank

I don't understand why you think that that's necessary. — Sapientia

What I can tell you is that, for example, £615,000-per-week for being a professional footballer is too much, and part of that amount should be redistributed. Why do you need a number? £300,000-per-week, 60%-per-week, it doesn't matter for the purpose of this discussion. It's just for arguments sake. Can't you use your imagination? — Sapientia

Another example. Suppose I am an engineer and independent contractor working on ship engines. I specialise in a particularly new class of ships that many world transportation companies are acquiring. There are very few people who specialise in this ship. Something goes wrong in one of those ships, and it no longer functions to transport the goods. My client moves $6,000,000 worth of goods each day using that ship (maybe those are much needed medicines, which save lives). So if he doesn't get me to fix it, then he (and all of society which depends on those goods) will lose $6,000,000/day. Is it fair that I am paid $600,000 for 10 hours of work? — Agustino

You've played down the role of paramedics. — Sapientia

If professional football is not as valuable as the emergency services, as I would maintain, then why doesn't the pay reflect that? — Sapientia

It is, according to Marx's analysis in Das Kapital, the universal mirror or equivalent that keeps company with all other ordinary commodities. It is in fact no more than a commodity itself, because it is a representation of the exchange value of the ordinary commodity. It is both the means of exchange and the measure of value. But it is not the same as an ordinary commodity, because it is primarily considered in light of its exchange value rather than its use value, or, put differently, in light of its quantitative dimension rather than its qualitative dimension. — Sapientia

Yes, the gist of it at least. These are the finer details that can be worked on and a resolution found. — Sapientia

"Marxism is finished. It might conceivably have had some relevance to a world of factories and food riots, coal miners and chimney sweeps, widespread misery and massed working classes. But it certainly has no bearing on the increasingly classless, socially mobile, postindustrial Western societies of the present. It is the creed of those who are too stubborn, fearful or deluded to accept that the world has changed for good, in both senses of the term".

Right? Wrong. (That's covered in the first chapter). — Sapientia

Marx would say it is false that the wealthiest have created the wealth, since in fact they have created the wealth with the assistance of several workers. — ivans

Another example. Suppose I am an engineer and independent contractor working on ship engines. I specialise in a particularly new class of ships that many world transportation companies are acquiring. There are very few people who specialise in this ship. Something goes wrong in one of those ships, and it no longer functions to transport the goods. My client moves $6,000,000 worth of goods each day using that ship (maybe those are much needed medicines, which save lives). So if he doesn't get me to fix it, then he (and all of society which depends on those goods) will lose $6,000,000/day. Is it fair that I am paid $600,000 for 10 hours of work? — Agustino

Hey Agustino...

How does the fact that not everyone has the same ability factor into your notion that everyone has the same opportunity to become wealthy via starting a business? — creativesoul

(And I hope that you're not trying to contrast your position from mine by suggesting that I would not likewise utilise mathematics to determine fair pay - although I'm not sure what role you imagine that science could play here). — Sapientia

Now, given that I've already addressed - although perhaps not answered to your satisfaction - the issues that you raise here, do you have any productive questions to ask or points to raise? — Sapientia

I told you that I'm not an expert, that I'm not best equipped to give you the finer details which you seek, that I can only give you a rough outline, and that I don't think that it's necessary to go into every little detail or present a fully formed plan in order to discuss and debate the essentials. — Sapientia

indicate excess or undervaluation — Sapientia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_aggression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_undermining

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abusive_supervision

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_deviance

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellianism_in_the_workplace

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_retaliatory_behavior

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_harassment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_bullying — schopenhauer1

I liked the Neo-Platonic proof the most. Though I've always favored Plato over Aristotle anyway so that might just be a bias of mine. — darthbarracuda

It's not dogma. It's just that at some point you hit upon a foundation. We each have our foundations. You're no different to me in that regard. The problem is that I recognise a foundation when I see it, and act accordingly, wheras you keep pressing. — Sapientia

However you're still going to be hostile to the ideas that inequality and poverty contribute to these temptations and their relationship can be understood statistically, I bet. — fdrake

Some kind of moral education initiative, would you say the success of the initiative could be measured by how the crime rate per capita behaves over the next few years? — fdrake

Also whether and how many of those people who were instructed in the initiative committed crimes? — fdrake

Do you see a role for statistics in finding problem areas in the organisation of a society that contribute to people making immoral decisions? — fdrake

WTF have you been taking man? "I'll have what he had"...not! — Janus

And do you propose to interview every member of a society in order to analyse its aggregate properties? — fdrake

If you don't stop this nonsense, I'm just going to ignore it. I'm growing tired of repeating variations of the same point that you just don't seem to be getting. I have explained it. I have given you examples to work with. Please apply some common sense. I don't need to set out a stringent and fully formulated system for you to get yourself clued up about what I'm talking about.

And for the umpteenth time, if you don't recognise it as unfair, then there's only so much that I can do. Stop looking outside of yourself for the answer. Gut feeling, conscience... call it what you will: it comes into play of necessity. — Sapientia

And there is something in principle wrong with that. It violates a most ethical principle of fairness. — Sapientia

One of the reasons statistical approaches to gas behaviour works was because it took something incredibly complicated with loads of variables - the individual trajectories of gas molecules; made a few simplifying assumptions like no particle interaction, then derived statistical properties based on the simplification. — fdrake

I don't think it's particularly contentious to say that people and the systems they create through their interaction are far more complex than any gas. This is then an excellent motivation for using statistical summaries to get information about individuals in societies - what promotes and constrains their behaviour. — fdrake

Ignoring base rates about their own business or businesses they like is probably one of the distinguishing features of entrepreneurs and investors. — fdrake

They condition on their own exceptionalness and believe it with great vigour. — fdrake

So you're quite happy to average over a poorly estimated distribution of an individual's success to calculate an expected return, but as far as betting on whether someone who just committed a crime is a member of a place with high crime rate and a high population or low crime rate with a low population... That's a no go. Riiiiiiight. — fdrake

False. The paramedic's employer must get additional funds from somewhere. I propose they be taken, in part, from your brownie business. — Sapientia

I wasn't referring to your Sun sign; I knew what that was from the Astrology thread. In any case it's Janus, anus, schmanus...and so on...ad nauseum... — Janus

Corrected what, little scorpion? — Janus