You think this is some grade school class where you the teacher are going to keep asking me the same question until you get the answer you want?

I answered your question. Your belief system doesn't allow you to comprehend.

Now back to my question? How does a cell do all of the things you claim it can do? What's the theory that explains these exceptional capabilities such as optimization? I suppose you have some powerful logic ready. You can start with your proposition.

The statement you just made implies that there are multiple "things", aka entities. You're being logically inconsistent. — JustSomeGuy

It's like waves in an ocean. Entangled forms.

To understand life one must jettison logic and imagine patterns. Art brings one much closer to understand nature am be life. Logic is only symbolic and this intrinsically incapable of grasping the whole.

Sorry, but GR predicts many things like, the big-bang, time dilation, gravitational waves, and that we inhabit a stationary block universe. — tom

The Big Bang thing is just Genesis and GTR makes no such prediction. It only concerns itself with measurements by clocks. As it turns out clocks are affected by gravity as are photons. I'm not surprised. So are waves in the ocean.

I love it when Determinists have to defend their faith. You figure all you have to do is throw out you God (Super-Duper-Determinatism) and people are going to fall over trying to be converted? Truly bathing in their own self-admitted illusions. You are living a life of illusions right?

Entity: a thing with distinct and independent existence — JustSomeGuy

No such thing. Everything is well entangled.

What you could do is demonstrate that the laws of physics are not deterministic. — tom

It's impossible. It would be like demonstrating God does not exist. It is all based upon faith in the Super-and-All-Powerful-Laws of Nature. Inscrutable, impenetrable, undefinable, and inexhaustible. Declaring that QM and GTR explains everything is quite an amazing leap of faith.

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According to GR we inhabit a stationary block space-time. This is as super-duper-deterministic as you can get. — tom

It says no such thing. It's a simple equation. The rest of the story is just made up. In fact, there isn't even time in the equation. It is all about time as expressed in clocks and how acceleration affects then. There is nothing there about human experience of duration. Humans are not clocks.

In what way is GR not compatible with QM? — tom

Google it.

I just told you, but if you want to play games: define entity?

Such silliness.

So the mind and the brain are two different entities? — JustSomeGuy

They are the same stuff just different forms analogous to vapor, water, ice.

Who is taking action and who is becoming aware of action? — JustSomeGuy

The Mind? Your mind. My mind. Everyone's mind. That which peers out though the eyes and made up the story that it can't make a choice. It's not all that wierd actually. The Mind loves making up stories. It's a pastime.

The Copenhagen Interpretation is entirely compatible with Superdeterminism. — tom

Everything is compatible with Super-Duper-Determinism. God is all powerful.

Let's give some credit to those of religious faith. At least they are aware enough of their faith that they don't deny it. Determinists are swimming in their own admitted illusions.

What the heck does GTR have to do with Super-Duper-Determinism?? It's a simple equation to explain some effects of gravity. It is not even compatible with QM and had zero to do with bouncing particles (that don't even exist) somehow, someway determining everything. What's nice about Determinism is, like the Bible, anything can be interpreted and used in any way, to justify their faith. No depth of knowledge or inquiry is required. Just make up stuff on the fly.

consequence of the laws of physics being interpreted — tom

The only Law of Physics that I know of is Quanum Mechanics and it would take a great myth maker to interpret QM into superdetermiminism. In fact, it would take an act of your faith.

That Determinism is a religion? I described it in very simple terms without obfuscation. But as with any religion, lacking any evidence whatsoever, Determinists believe in their Truth. That is the nature of religion. Dogmatic faith.

As with any religion Determinists believe that the Laws of Nature are unlimited in their power to do things in ways mortals cannot comprehend.

Determinists exhibit as much faith and dogma as the most fanatical of any religious and by degrading humanity have enabled some of the worst holocausts.

Action comes before awareness. Someone's I decide which way to move and then I move. Both most times it is formed habit. The brain is nothing more than a central receiving/transmission network.

Cells can, rocks can't — Pseudonym

Cells can and rocks can't? Why? What is the meaning of "can".

It's as much of a conspiracy as any religion. People of like faith get together to worship the Supreme and there is always someone to pass the plate. If one really wants to understand the nature of religion, study Determinism and its evangelists.

Cells — Pseudonym

First of all you are doing a fantastic job of avoiding that taboo word, but unfortunately you are not out of the woods yet.

Cells have all like these wonderful interests and capabilities such as creating illusions and looking to optimize by searching for discrepancies? How? Rocks can't. Or can they?

Memory like everything else in the universe is constantly changing. But scientists of all types always assume there is a stagnant, immovable Truth. It permeates the discipline in different forms.

It may be fun (and easy income) to search for repressed memories but it is of no matter. A person can change but the "I' had to initiate it and create new memories to change the old.

illusion of self speeds up decision making by presuming they shouldn't be. — Pseudonym

What is creating the illusions?

What is trying to speed things up?

What is presuming?

What is trying to optimize?

What word are You trying to avoid using?

Yes, Life's purpose (the Mind) is to Create.

The AI piece is just self-serving and good marketing for academic fund raising.

Nothing is 'interested', any more than the rock is 'intetested' in getting wet when it rains, it just does. — Pseudonym

So what exactly is a discrepancy? How does a discrepancy exist without an interest in it?

As I said above, the point is to highlight potential discrepancies in stimuli. — Pseudonym

Exactly what (it is not a whom) is interested in the concept of discrepancies?

I would prefer not to rely on faith in the existence of a physical "soul" like described in many religions, and I would also like to believe that the world around me is to some extent real. — A disturbed person

There is an "I", the Observer that is peering through the eyes and is learning, experimenting, creating, and evolving. This idea that we are some bouncing particles is a man-made myth and needs to be discarded in order to understand life. Actually, the Daoists had it right. The "I" resides in the center of the body and the brain along with the spine is more of a transmitter/receiver antenna.

so they invent a myth, a god, in order to pretend to themselves that things really are determined in a simple way for themselves and everybody else. — sime

The myth in this case are the Laws of Nature (which is both undefinable and transcendental) which are determining everything. This concept replaced God. And who is it that represent themselves as the priests who are the one and only ones that have direct knowledge of the all powerful Laws of Nature?

Bottom line, the Laws of Nature were invented in the same manner and the same way as God for precisely the same reason.

Relativity is about RELATIVITY. It's not about time travel or how clocks control the biological aging process. It's amazing how people get caught up in their own stories. The making of myths.

The reason no one understands Relativity is because it is a mess and the paradoxes it creates is evidence of this. But to elevate to some equations into some ontology is absolutely insane, which pretty much describes the hubris of science and its priests.

There isn't a problem with measurement. Precisely-measured differences in clock tick rates have been observed that are consistent with the predictions of special and general relativity. — Andrew M

The problem was and continues to be determining simultaneity. This was the root issue. The answer that was present by STR is bizarre. There is a privilege reference frame. It is the one where the train is hitting the car. But I don't want to get into all of the messiness of Relativity. Einstein didn't receive a Nobel prize for it and for good reason. He actually tried to elevate it to ontology for heaven sakes. Clocks do not measure human biological aging (real time), they measure space traversal with the purpose to establish order tsimultaneity - a completely different story. The sci fi book writers who wrote about relatively are way ahead of themselves.

You're confusing it with velocity — noAxioms

GTR has zero relevance to biological systems. It's about the problems of measurement. Every body in the Universe is accelerating. There is no privileged frame of reference. There is no t in GTR. It is some manufactured space-time thing. End of story.

Thanks for the science lesson. Had nothing to do with GTR.

There's that magical Mind again, that is uninfluenced by the experiences it has experienced — CasKev

Isn't this totally opposite of what I wrote?

Someone's bouncing particles are having a bad day.

I'm suggesting that STR and GTR are a complete mess. But that doesn't v keep people from concocting stories about time travel and the sorts. I wish people spent more time truly digging into stuff rather than spin tall tales. GTR is a to theory about gravity. There is no t in GTR.

well isn't saying that anything could be accelerating depending on the viewpoint just as silly? — David Solman

Look at the equation.

Do you feel propulsion when sleeping? You are still accelerating.

There is no variable in the equations about "experiencing" acceleration.

Two measurements, and from each point of view, something is accelerating.

How we ever got from a theory about gravitation to two vilification entities aging at different rates, I have no idea. It would be a great research project to find out who started this all. I know why it it to perpetuated. It sells books just like Black Holes.

That's not accurate. If everything is the result of a cause, there cannot be true freedom of choice — JustSomeGuy

Sure there can be, it is just not determined.

I want to cross the street. I look left and then I look right and I decide to go right. That is what happens. My mind makes the choice. Determinist reject this description because the reject mind, even their own mind that is doing the rejecting. They have transferred all decision making to some outside mystical forces, presumably the Laws of Nature, that is guiding and determining everything.

Having a Mind that is making choices is exactly what we experience in life.

Well, yes, the Earth is always accelerating - it is revolving around the sun, which involves acceleration. — T Clark

Which one is slowing down? The sun or the Earth. Which is accelerating relative to the other.

I understand this time dilation stuff had been around for a long time and tickles the fancy of people who enjoy the Sci Fi aspect, but it is so full of holes in so many respects. The reason there is isn't more analysis of the problem is because it had no practical relevance so the fantasy story continues.

What is important is the t time in STR is not the t in GTR. There is no t in GTR.

Effects on acceleration on clocks and measurements had nothing to do with the biological sense of time and duration passing. This is a huge confusion.

As for acceleration itself, the equations do not provide and means for establishing what is accelerating. I am accelerating as I write this but I don't feel it. Feeling acceleration is not part of the equations.

Anyone who is interested in this question is going to have to do a ton of research but I am convinced it is a Sci Fi story, no more.

Are you saying each individual event is isolated and unconnected, unrelated to all other events? — JustSomeGuy

Determinism means much more than causality. It is exactly what it is named. Everything is determined. Causality, other than the Big Bang, is irrelevant, other than some amusement for the bouncing particles - that are following which Laws exactly?

You can have causality and choice, which is exactly what we experience in our lives. A Mind is making choices based upon memory.

This issue has been on my mind a lot since we talked last, and I'm trying to figure out how to make sense of things from a non-deterministic viewpoint. No breakthroughs yet, unfortunately. — JustSomeGuy

There is no way to make sense of Determinism. It was simply a story made up hundreds of years ago when some scientist/atheists hoped that they could control the whole universe with Newton's Laws (never considering that under determinism there is nothing to control). There is much economic advantage for certain industries to perpetuate the myth of Determinism in academia so that is what is funded by Big Industries such as Big Pharma.

Philosophically though, Determinism is farcical and to try to make sense of it (and why would bouncing particles which to make sense of themselves in the first place?), Is absolutely impossible. Why in heavens name would the Laws of Nature create a forum to discuss whether it exists?

As a religion, Determinism makes all the sense in the world.

If everything is determined, that includes illusions.

If everything is determined, that includes determinism.

Therefore, if determinism is assumed to be true, one's position on free will vs. determinism is determined.

Finally, if everything is determined, that would include physicalism/materialism. What determined physicalism/materialism? — WISDOMfromPO-MO

I was going to suggest that we just shut down the forum since all of the discussions were already determined, but then I remembered it was beyond our control since the bouncing particles are making all of the illusory decisions. The proceeding statement is in itself an illusion since everyone knows bouncing particles don't know how to write or talk to each other. They have no interest. They just like bouncing around.

I guess the only remaining question that I have (everything is were clear) is why some bouncing particles (btw, there is no such thing as a particle) make some people think they have free will, while others create the opposite illusion. Is it because they have a sense of humor?

You're confusing religion with science. If you really don't know the difference, then there's no point in continuing a conversation with you. — Harry Hindu

You can't read. I said Determinism/Materialism is a religion. It is a story/myth created by atheists so they can have their fated lives to believe in, which makes it a dead on sibling of Calvinism. That there is zero support for either Determinism or Materialism is if no matter to true believers. A good story is hard to beat. It is a great story of how bouncing particles created everything. However, for me, I think Geek mythology is far more enjoyable.

Yes, I'm sure the earth is not accelerating. F = ma. If no force is applied, there is no acceleration. — T Clark

The Earth is accelerating. It is always accelerating (remember gravity?).

How does an observer who is measuring know what is accelerating. You are using information that is not contained in GTR. In GTR you are taking measurements. That is all. A person in a spaceship could just as easily claim the Earth is accelerating away via use of instruments.