UPDATE: I will be putting together some bullet points that outline the latest developments concerning; the whistleblower, I G's recent testimony, as well as the bombshell that occurred today relative to Trumps personal attorney Giuliani and his associates, being arrested for funneling foreign money and paying off a republican congressman to help influence a Ukraine official.

Stay tuned!

Ha, you should know that I try not to dichotomize!!
One might could argue that the inferences for Deity which I've hinted at could be added criteria for negative Theology.

And I would be okay in taking a journey in that direction... However, I was keeping the focus on certain Existential phenomenon as it were.

I mean we haven't even talked about the so-called William James religious experiences that people have, and other things relative to psychology and consciousness...

Aside from that, in theory, if the Atheist is trying to use pure logic to defend their position that God doesn't exist, it would still be untenable no? We all know about the ontological argument...

It's properties of your brain--ways that your brain works. The brain structure and function that amount to properties in question arose because of genetic mutations.


Sorry don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like Daniel Dennett's philosophical gibberish all over again. It's far from describing the nature of consciousness viz. why human's have purpose and goals like Love or music or mathematics or anything of higher consciousness.

Although we might agree that it would be outside the purview of Darwinism LoL

soon as you make a proposition about a God's existence, you put yourself in a position of defending it.


Per the rules of a priori formal logic or propositional logic if you prefer.

Sure... critiquing thier deficiencies would be a better characterization I think.

use of Soren Kierkegaard as your avatar is, in a number of ways, at odds with the argument you give regarding the necessary existence of God.


Hey V. Yes I am a Christian Existentialist. And in many ways of course I agree with Kierkegaard. I'm not trying to prove the existence of God. In the OP I'm drawing distinctions between lower life-forms and higher consciousness... .

just Daniel Dennett's argument and I didn't find it convincing when he delivered it


Yep! That's the Atheist who wrote the infamous book " consciousness explained" of course.

Many agree he didn't explain it all. I read it and came to the same conclusion. Kind of what Einstein said in the OP about troubled Athiest's. The book was basically philosophical gibberish to justify nihilism and... .

That's the part of Atheism I feel sorry about...just another Religion. Besides, not that he was perfect, I would rather trust Einstein anyway LOL

You do not understand atheism


Nope you're wrong. As soon as you make a proposition about a God's existence, you put yourself in a position of defending it. Your best bet is to say no-thing and walk away. Or say 'I don't know'.

This is another reason why positive Atheism is untenable of course.

Therefore, all I need to point out is that there is no valid deduction of God


We agree. But you failed to discuss induction.

You're still in the dark. Why do I have goals? What does that confer? Happiness/purpose?

You contradicted yourself from your earlier statement that there is no purpose.

"True"

Okay you said true to the proposition that: God does not exist.

Great. How can you prove it?

But how can you be sure? What kind of logic tells you that?

Oh, explain Faith Hope and Love while you are at it LOL!

You still haven't supported your view of why humans do/don't have purpose. Until you do that, your Atheism has major holes LOL

Care to define that term?



Remember, I'm a Christian Existentialist : If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe.

I'm guessing that you must have a conception of God to assert its non-existence though.

Okay good for you. Just don't say: God does not exist. Then you become a positive Atheist and will have to defend your position.

Can you see the quantum universe?

Great. Then I would recommend you become an Agnostic.

Don't be shy 180. Argue that God does not exist!!!!

The world in general has no purposes.

Of course you have to be kidding me right?

True, of course.


Great. How do you know that for sure? I realize that's a big question, but I'm guessing it's as simple as the ontological argument....

But 3017amen has the common misconception that a trait can't arise unless it's evolutionarily advantageous, so it's important to get him to realize that that's a misconception.


I'll get to your other concerns TS, but we are talking over each other. I am asking why we have those traits.

But what follows from it's limitation? The God of the gaps?

Great question. As volitional Beings, what should we choose...and I never asked you E, what have you concluded thus:

1. God does not exist.

(True or false just asking)

Wishes and hopes.

Great response. Why do we hope, is there survival value to Faith, Hope and Love?

If what you mean to do is to argue that the theory of evolution is wrong because it doesn't offer a compelling account of all phenomena, your problem isn't with the theory of evolution but with the scientific method itself.

No E! What I'm saying is that it is LIMITED. I'm not dichotomizing.

Great...to me, " I don't know" sounds much more reasonable or even 'logical'.

But once again, existential questions can rear their ugly heads hence: If one says that they don't know something, what are they really saying/what's behind that thought process?

I suppose one could say that one is Stoic or indifferent to the question. Or maybe even some element of the so-called sense of wonderment is there. I think that's of higher consciousness...kind of like Kant's form of a priori logic, or in other words innate or intrinsic human intuition.

If you don't mind me wondering too...I was always curious about sexual selection as it were. I mean, with human's, it's not just pure instinct... .

Still in one of the camps whose 'God' can't be shown, regardless of their claims.


Are you sure? What is leap of Faith?

Okay Gotcha. Then is this statement true:

1. God does not exist.

True or false? (I'm just asking don't get angry.)

Hey Poetic, yeah, that's one of many reasons why I'm a Christian Existentialist.

Atheism is the belief that no gods exist, not the belief that no mysteries exist, that would be amysterism.


We agree! It does seem logical that mysteries exist. Unfortunately, many Atheists I've come to know don't hold your/that world view.

Of course it begs many questions, one of which might be: what does one do with the concept of mystery that exists in the world?

Why are people of color in the US on average poorer and less educated than white people? Something must be wrong with them, or they must be doing something wrong.

Hey SC welcome!

That's a good question, probably has something to do with the human condition. Psychological bias, racism, you know, those kinds of things.

To that end, you think it's a pathology of sorts, or just human nature?

Thats why “brainwashing” seems like such an accurate word when describing how people come to religion. Trained from childhood to accept utterly vacant claims, to call the illogical logical, and to be taught meaningless terms are actually the most meaningful. (IE faith).
Its unfortunate that an accurate term like delusional, or irrational is dismissed out of hand by the religious when just accepting the potential accuracy would be enough for them to shake off the brainwashing

You mean that statement you made above? Those are psychological statements of discontent. What would you like me to do with them?

I hear you Alcontali. And I also respect your learn-ed mind. I've read many of your posts.

Did you have any thoughts on the 7 existential phenomena ( our conscious experience) examples, that would suggest Diety?

And I'll do you one back; have you read The Mind of God by Physicist Paul Davies?

Thank you kindly for name-dropping that book. I took a quick look-see an am very intrigued...

No im not suggesting that at all...so do you “get that” after all?


I'm not following you. Are you saying that Atheism is untenable in some way?

Oh sorry, I thought you were going to do the demonstrating. I’ll pass


LOL, that's what I thought; one down more to go!

Let me know when you got it figured out!

By the way, atheism has zero connection to evolutionary theory.


Okay. then how do you explain why we have that ability? I mean really, these are simple existential questions that you as an Atheist must have grappled with at some point right TS?

Thats why “brainwashing” seems like such an accurate word when describing how people come to religion. Trained from childhood to accept utterly vacant claims, to call the illogical logical, and to be taught meaningless terms are actually the most meaningful. (IE faith).
Its unfortunate that an accurate term like delusional, or irrational is dismissed out of hand by the religious when just accepting the potential accuracy would be enough for them to shake off the brainwashing.

Sure I get that. But are you suggesting all of life is logical?