Btw folks, don't think Roger Scruton gives a fuck about any of you. You aren't required to defend his honor.

And of course as you have made your opinion about him, you don't see any reason to dwelve further, but to go along the sentence of him being anti-semite — ssu

Hey ssu, I would strongly recommend actually reading what I wrote prior to posting. As I explained here, I didn't explicitly say that Scruton is an antisemite (I'm hesitant to do so), but that his commentary was loaded with antisemitic canards, etc., which you conveniently haven't acknowledged, much less disputed.

Of course, those parts of the talk highlighted are not quoted, which clearly show the tendentious bashing and mudslinging the whole thing is about. You see, at least I think that usually anti-semites DO NOT talk about the persecution of the Jews and anti-semitism being 'an obstacle to the emergence of a shared national loyalty'. — ssu

Yes, I'm familiar with Scruton's quotes here, having actually read his full commentary before posting, but as I pointed out, this doesn't excuse what he said (which you are disinclined to acknowledge, much less defend). But sure, pay no attention to one of the few people of actual Jewish decent here, and please, let's have all the non-Jews who clearly know jackshit about antisemitism explain to me what it entails...

The connotations of those things aren't particularly good — fdrake

I think one could reasonably go so far as to say they are very bad actually!

Having an antisemitic friend doesn't make you an antisemite — fdrake

Sure, but I didn't say that, I said that he described accusations of antisemitism against Orbán as "nonsense". I would also add that suggesting Islamophobia isn't real is more than having "little sympathy" for Muslims, especially when you add other comments of his, such as, "sudden invasion of huge tribes of Muslims from the Middle East," when describing refugees and immigrants.

The topic and Scruton's remarks could be used for the purpose you're suggesting, since skilful dog whistling does usually look like that. Though in this case I do doubt that their original intent is like that though. — fdrake

I don't know what else Scruton has said or, of course, thought about Jews, but his comments above are an undeniable antisemitic canard, as I've pointed out. I would assume a public intellectual would be familiar with such tropes. Scruton is, it should be noted, friendly with Viktor Orbán, who is an antisemite, despite having said accusations against Orbán as an antisemite were "nonsense", so I can't imagine he has a rosy view of Jews. Wouldn't surprise me coming from a man who said Islamophobia isn't real.

Use your brain, I know you have one, I've seen you use it.

If you are a Congressperson who questions American Imperialism the GOP will place their crosshairs on you, while the Dems shrug their shoulders. All the more true if you are a black Muslim woman.

Trump and and the rest of the conservatives are trying to get Ilhan Omar killed.

I should also say that a long-term coworker at my company was recently fired for making a mildly racist comment towards a black coworker. I didn't see his termination at all unjustified. Roger Scruton, who was in a government position, doesn't get exemption simply because he's a celebrated philosopher or because he sanitizes his comments as profound, philosophical, or relevant ideas worthy of public debate or discussion. They are not.

Scruton never said 'Jewish intelligentsia networks', which would have nasty connotations, implying the age-old belief in a Jewish conspiracy. He spoke of 'Budapest intelligentsia' and 'networks around the Soros empire'. To me at least, that has very different connotations. — andrewk

What the heck would "antisemitic" refer to if either of those are sufficient to be antisemitic? (Not that he even used the phrase "Jewish intelligentsia networks," but we can pretend that he did.) — Terrapin Station

His exact quote was, "many of the Budapest intelligentsia are Jewish, and form part of the extensive networks around the Soros Empire," and which is a hairsplitting distinction from outright saying, "Jewish intelligentsia networks", and committed or even casual antisemites wouldn't see any significant difference. Further, the concept of a "Soros Empire" is at least a two decade long antisemitic trope, and particularly pervasive in Hungary. It's the idea of manipulative elitists Jews who act as puppet masters behind global and state affairs, and policies.

I should also note the audacity behind saying that the term Islamophobia is mere propaganda, less than a month after 50 Muslims were brutally murdered in their Mosque.

There are innumerably more concerning things occurring in the world that demonstrate the absolute abysmal state of affairs in regards to public discourse, government, culture, and journalism, than Roger Scruton losing one of his jobs in a public position because he said Islamophobia is made up. No one should really care.

Knowing that you've seen the full quotation, I have to say that this is beneath contempt. — jamalrob

How does the second half of the full quotation justify the first half regarding a "Soros Empire", and "Jewish intelligentsia networks", which are in and of themselves, antiSemitic remarks? Not to mention his defense of Orban, saying that accusations of antisemitism were "nonsense".

You attempt to push his position outside the realm of reasonable opinion, but really you just disagree with him. I happen to agree with him — jamalrob

And just because you agree with him, doesn't mean his views are inside the "realm of reasonable opinion". They are demonstrably Islamophobic and outright absurd.

because of what it shows about the state of public debate, of government, of cultural mores, and of journalism. — jamalrob

Yes so sad for the state of the world in which a prominent old white guy was let go from a public position because a journalist printed his exact words. So sad that his name will undoubtedly be forever tarnished, that he will live in destitute poverty for the rest of his years. I will play the world's smallest violin for both Scruton and the death of public discourse. Surely this is what Kafka and Orwell were alluding too in their novels.

Yeah I mean saying that there is a "Soros Empire" formed by and around an "extensive network" of "Jewish intelligentsia" who are pulling the strings, is an age old antiSemitic stereotype through and through. The idea that the term 'Islamophobia", or, more saliently, the meaning behind it is agitprop is detestably ludicrous. In fact, I think the term "Islamophobia" doesn't fully express the connotations it ought to have, as compared to antisemitism. But that's fairly demonstrative of what can and can't be discussed, as shown by the rancor expressed towards Ilhan Omar.

But why should I or anyone really care that Roger Scruton is losing a Government position because of this?

But this is wrong. Can one criticize the West as such? Can one criticize Islam as such? — jamalrob

If one wants to criticize either, they should point out moral flaws and historical failings, but that would inevitably entail acknowledging a multiplicity of moral values and historicity, if one wanted to be intellectually honest, and given the context of the thread there is no intellectual honesty that can emerge from this conversation.

Anyone who thinks "The West" or "Islam" can be conceptualized as a monolith, unquestionably has a child's understanding of history and modernity. That's all there is to it.

My own 2 cents is that this dumb as fuck thread should be closed. Go to 4chan or some shit to spew this Islamophobic stupidity, not here.

Yeah those brazen militaristic fascist European countries from WW2, such as Sweden and France.

Anyway, the OP is what you get when you view the world and history in mindbogglingly simplistic dyad

Thank you for your patience Maw — ArguingWAristotleTiff

To be frank I've heard this apologetic spiel from you before

Honestly no one should care about this story

It's times like these that I miss 180 the most. As a fellow resident of AZ he might be able to verify or dismiss what I am saying. — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Yeah I definitely don't think 180 Proof would approve of the xenophobic propaganda expressed on Fox News, or by Trump or other right-wing groups and organizations.

Anyway, no one is asking you to change your views overnight, but we've had this conversation for about a year now.

Hey here's an idea, instead of defunding public services, let's tax the rich to better fund these services instead and help the people who are fleeing the countries the US fucked over decades ago, instead of demonizing them, and rounding them up in concentration camps. wow so crazy.

Tiff's whole rant here is no different from Fox/Trump propaganda.

Nice kicks

The Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord
Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War by Michael Isikoff and David Corn

I'm voting for either Warren or Bernie in the primary.

If you look at Biden's voting record as a senator you'll find he is very bad.

You'll have to ask Barr for now lol

That's a summary of the report from AG Barr, not from Mueller. The summary also said that Trump has not been exonerated. We need the full report.

The first part of this may be true. But not only white baby boomers. A lot of people benefited, most people’s lives improved, maybe by different degrees. — Brett

I didn't say "only white baby boomers". I said they "greatly benefited".

But the second part sounds like someone lashing out at someone to blame. How did they fuck it up for younger generations? And do you mean all generations coming after? — Brett

I think this interview neatly answers that. Also check out Malcom Harris' book, Kids These Days.

You go on to list social accomplishments mostly made by Black Americans and women.

But also it goes without saying that my original comment was a generalization, like come the fuck on

Thanks for proving my point

To my point, I think it's pretty clear what ethnicity and gender took part in the society that you delineated

The Silence of the Girls by Pat Barker

I know Kamala Harris and Warren have also come out in support for her. But the Democrats looked absolutely awful as they through Ilhan Omar under the bus because bad faith actors decided to pound the table and accuse Omar of baseless anti-semitism.

Meanwhile as Baden pointed out, Netanyahu said the quiet part out-loud, i.e. he views Israel as an monolithic ethnic-state. There is a very real conversation that needs to occur in American regarding out relationship to Israel, and the more Zionists (which mostly refers to Evangelist Christians, rather than American Jews, by the way) attempt to silence this debate and accuse detractors of anti-semitism (even if those detractors are Jewish!) the worse it will be for them in the future.

(White, Male) Baby Boomers benefited greatly from the New Deal and post-War economy and then fucked it up for younger generations, so they indeed suck

They made it difficult to watch through grandstanding, misplaced moralizing, and incoherent attacks, and overall hypocrisy. I don't understand how some of them were elected. Higgins was an absolute moron, as was Meadows, Jim Jordan is just a boot-licking dipshit.

So did anyone else watch the Cohen testimony?

It's Bernie bitch, 2020 let's fucking go

you sick bastard I want to be on a beach

Except all instances of free market Capitalism have been centrally planned, and central planning doesn't necessarily preclude the opportunity for individual autonomy. In some respect it may be it's precondition. So I don't see the analogy having historical or theoretical legitimacy. It's a false dichotomy.