And fuck your attempt to clarify reality for us all. — unenlightened

That isn't very nice. My point is there is a huge difference between discriminating against Black people, homosexuals versus trans people. The two aren't equivalent at all. However, people seem to make snide insinuations to racism and homophobia.

I am aware Black people and white people are not monochrome.

That's fine. I have some sympathy with your position when we're dealing with transgender issues. But the same arguments have been used for dealing with sexual orientation and race issues. At times, and sometimes still, most bodies want gay and black people to be classified as biologically, or at least socially or morally, atypical not to mention inferior. It's a bad argument in terms of what's right and wrong, but it's right politically - don't try to ram your values down your fellow citizen's throats. There are years of patient groundwork that has to accomplished first if you want to succeed in those kinds of social changes. — T Clark

There is a fundamental difference between trans and other issues.
A Black person is black, a homosexual is homosexual, A trans woman is not a woman.

Philosophical arguments for a trans affirmative stance are interesting, conceptually. — Jeremy Murray

Philosophically I don’t think anyone can jump the gap of their sex and become the opposite gender or non gender. The sex of a person is there for everyone to see unless there is significant surgery and synthetic hormones used.
I have no issue with someone adopting the stereotypical norms of the opposite gender but that is cosplaying and does not reflect the reality that men and women can be whoever they like to be.
If there were no imbalance physically and socially between the sexes then there would be no need for any restrictions on men being allowed in women’s spaces.
However, there is an imbalance so restrictions are necessary until through massive social engineering these imbalances are eliminated.
The trans rights advocates seem to ignore or not see issues that women face despite the many many advances that have been made both legally and socially over the decades.
I assume even the most radical trans advocate has acknowledged that female sports is not a place for trans women.
I have no idea why the subject is seen as complicated. It isn’t.

Just one counterexample is sufficient to disprove your claim that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female. — Michael

It's a very very narrow spectrum. 5,999,999,984 female, 28 ambiguous, 5,999,999,984 male

Malcolm Parry and AmadeusD are claiming that every single human without exception is either (unambiguously) biologically male or (unambiguously) biologically female.

My question to them (and to which you respond) was an attempt to have them try to understand that human biology is not so black and white. — Michael

28 out of 12 billion seems fairly black and white.

Given that some human has ovotesticular syndrome caused by 46,XX/46,XY chimerism, what is the biological feature that either makes them a male or makes them a female? Of particular relevance are those with bilateral ovotestis and/or streak gonads, as well as ambiguous genitalia. — Michael

Even sex-discordant chimeras can have a normal male or female phenotype. Only 28 of the 50 individuals with a 46,XX/46,XY karyotype were either true hermaphrodites or had ambiguous genitalia.

That is total number of cases of this disorder that are known. I would say 28 out of say 12 billion. is not statistically significant number to overhaul the binary nature of sex.

But ambiguous does not mean a third sex, surely?

I think he's pointing out that you started by claiming that every human is either unambiguously male or unambiguously female without exception, then you accepted that at least 500 people are an exception, but then later went back to claiming that there are no exceptions. — Michael

I was corrected by AmadeusD.
Even if there are 500 anomalies that is exactly what they are. No spectrum

But yeah, contradiction isn't good without expressing the mental change that's occurred. Maybe he can do so... — AmadeusD

I stated that I was happy to be corrected. I should not have gone down the intersex cul de sac which some are fixated on to give credence to their delusional misogyny.

She says "trans woman" doesn't make any sense, and I can see her point. But if you don't call them that, what do you call them? — frank

Men who think they are women. It’s a bit long winded though.

Change for the better is good. But his a change for the worse, evidenced by his plain contradiction. But let him reconcile it, if he can. — tim wood

I was interested in the syndrome did a bit of googling and the conclusion was that some people were a bit of both. It was a syndrome with 500 known cases. I was corrected by a poster and was happy to be corrected because tiny pockets of developmental defects doesn’t seem change the science of 8 billion people on the planet.
Why is the change for the worse?

Quite frankly, I think that bathrooms should just be individual locking rooms, like what you see at most restaurants. For me the issue isn't whether or not the people in the room have dicks, it's the fact that there's people in the room. — Wolfy48

But the ones that aren’t. Are you happy for men to use them?

sigh*

Actually that was interesting to research.I will no longer state all individuals are either male or female. Some are mosaic 46,XX/46 XY
— Malcolm Parry
It certainly isn’t a spectrum like some claim.
— Malcolm Parry
Because there are only two sexes. Male and female
— Malcolm Parry
— tim wood
Emphasis added. — tim wood

Sigh*

They are male or female. I have responded to Michael on this, harking back to plenty of further support I've given earlier in the thread.
— AmadeusD

I’m happy to stand corrected

. But when a fact is undecided on, — Wolfy48

It isn’t.

Look, I know this is coming from a good place but that is the same excuse that people used to justify racial segregation in the States — Wolfy48

You think men should be able to use women’s bathrooms?

Giveth and taken away, see above. Hmm. Unless "female" and "male" do not correspond to sex. — tim wood

Enlighten me

there is no use arguing over whose opinion is scientifically correc — Wolfy48

Do you think scientific facts are opinions that you may or may not disagree with?

except for all the people that have their identities violated by that interpretation. — Wolfy48

It isn’t my responsibility to affirm someone’s wishes. I’m not going to play along especially if this violates female rights to exclusive areas.

The argument is on gender, not sex, and in any case, the majority of scientists state that there are more than two sexes... (though the others are uncommon) — Wolfy48

We can agree to disagree. I have stated sex is binary and I don’t ascribe to the definition of gender that has been co opted by you and many others who seem happy to allow men to cosplay as women.

Idk man, how would you even scientifically prove how to interpret a definition? — Wolfy48

Sex is binary. It isn’t a spectrum. It isn’t an opinion

Ok so now trans women can go to the bathroom, works for me ;3 — Wolfy48

They were never barred.

That's a valid opinion for you to have, but not one that everyone shares. I certainly don't think that the state should have the right to decide such matters of opinion for the people, but hey, not much I can do about it (yet) — Wolfy48

It is fact. It is (thankfully) law in UK.
I have no issue with trans people dressind and living however they like. However, women have fought for certain rights and I don’t think it is for men to barge into their exclusive spaces. It’s not a wild out there stance surely?

And how does banning trans people from bathrooms accomplish preventing sexual assault? — Wolfy48

Replace trans people with the word men.

Well uhhhh... ok? I personally think that everyone is allowed to form their own opinions when science can't provide a clear answer... — Wolfy48

It has.

So why do you continue to say that sex is scientifically the same as gender? It's not — Wolfy48

Because gender describes the societal and cultural differences between the sexes. It doesn’t mean a man becomes a woman. This is now law in my country. The madness has been curtailed.

They are male or female. I have responded to Michael on this, harking back to plenty of further support I've given earlier in the thread. — AmadeusD

I’m happy to stand corrected

I don't think that's what he's saying, but if he is, he is just as entitled to hold that belief as you are entitled to hold yours. — Wolfy48

No he isn’t and the earth isn’t flat either

Again, I fear you are confusing sex assigned at birth with gen — Wolfy48

I’m not confusing it at all. I’m saying your grafting on some meaningless nonsense is just that.

“Maybe you should. You missed off the 500 cases comment. You think sex is a spectrum?

How is it misogyny, and how is it nonsense? — Wolfy48

Eradicating the biological and social aspects that are unique to females. Total misogyny. Some airy fairy statement about comportment is flakey nonsense. I assume you are on a wind up.

So no, having a vagina does not make you a woman. Choosing to comport and express yourself as a woman is what makes you a woman. You could argue that Sex Assigned At Birth is what makes you a woman, but a large amount of people would disagree with you on that, so why hold so tightly to opinion that does nothing but offend, hurt, and de-validate others? — Wolfy48

This is terrible misogyny. Also, utter nonsense.

Why is it certain — Wolfy48

Because there are only two sexes. Male and female

I suppose the rational counterargument would be: ridiculously rare genetic abnormalities aside, how does that change a thing? — Outlander

It certainly isn’t a spectrum like some claim.

As I see it, beauty is a part of good, the part that is perceived by our senses. When we say that the sunset was beautiful, we are saying that the sunset looked good. When we say that the symphony was beautiful, we are saying that the symphony sounded good. When we say that the sex was beautiful, we are saying that the sex felt good. Beauty is sensible goodness. — GregW

A serial killer could see beauty when his hands are around the neck of a victim taking their last breath?
There is a savage beauty in an apex predator despatching it's prey.

Sometimes, there is truth in simplicity. — Martijn

It also means you don't miss your bus.

I suppose that depends on how you interpret gender ;D — Wolfy48

This is the nub of the issue. The term seems to have been hijacked.

And I identify with the gender of femboy, therefore giving me my Gender Identity. — Wolfy48

Is femboy a gender or just a description of a type of man?

Basically I'm a guy who likes to be a little girly at times — Wolfy48

Which is perfectly fine. A man can be whatever he wants. It is the gender component that I see as problematic. The term that was used to explain societal differences between the sexed has been hijacked imho. A feminine man is still a man. It makes no difference to the world except in sport and women’s exclusive places. Which should be based on biology. Not what someone feels.

, Gender is based on how an individual interprets gender, — Wolfy48

What does that mean? How do you interpret your gender?

so they dress and act in a way that they see as more feminine — Wolfy48

Surely that is an extremely outdated view of what it is to be a woman. How does gender identity women dress and act? Is a woman who likes masculine pursuits and clothes a different gender even if she thinks her gender is female?
I find the concept extremely odd and old fashioned.

I do believe that Gender Identity and what you are assigned at birth are not the same thing — Wolfy48

How does gender identity manifest itself? A man (biologically) feels his gender is female. What does that mean?