If they've had surgery, how would you know?

What about trans men (esp. after hormones and surgery)? Ought they use women's changing rooms because they're biological women? — Michael

If a person looks like a woman then there would be no issue. Society isn't spending billions on gender recognition measures to eradicate men who look like women from using bathrooms. Most trans women do not look like women.

I see no issue with trans men using the male changing room. They pose no potential threat and men have a different attitude to females in their private spaces. Women in our society are more vulnerable and there are social mores that mean they are uncomfortable with men around these places.
If a trans man wants to use a women's restroom they have every right should they wish. No idea why they would.

Trans women are a special case of males though — I like sushi

In what way are they special? Over and above any other special case?

The reason trans women are trans women is because they are trans women. They are not women. — I like sushi

Agreed 100%

It is uncivil to treat someone who wishes to be treated one way another way simply because it displeases you. — I like sushi

Do you think some women want trans women excluded from their exclusive places because it displeases them? Do you see no discomfort or risk from allowing males in changing rooms etc?

If it is about treating someone with respect and dignity I see no real issue — I like sushi

What about treating women with dignity and respect?

We are not talking about delusional people, we are talking about people who feel a certain way and only want a modicum of social acceptance — I like sushi

I think they are deluded to think of themselves as a woman and expect women to accomodate their wishes.

of course there are always agitators though. — I like sushi

Not just agitators but weirdos who will impersonate a genuine trans women for nefarious gratifications.

For the sake of clarity, if there is no discernable difference, — I like sushi

I replied saying that there isn't a sport where there is no discernable difference and if there was there was no point in having a female category. If there was a female category in such a sport why would a trans woman need or wish to compete in that category?
There was no side stepping.

If the choice is effectively arbitrary then it does not matter where people compete. — I like sushi

I agree 100% but it never is. IMHO.

Given that trans women classify themselves as a types of women (if not biologically female) and wish to be treated as trans women - not men in dressed - then the only reason I can see to bar them is pure prejudice. — I like sushi

Why is it prejudice to not recognise trans women as women? They are not women.

I am NOT talking about any of this as a one way street. Plenty of trans women do not think of themselves as female and actual women, they are quite happy to state they merely wish to be treated as women, within certain limitations, and respect as a human being. — I like sushi

I am not taking it as a one way street. Trans women can dress, act and be whoever they wish to be. They just are not women. Biology is far from the determinant factor. It is in sports but everything else, society molds us all. If it were socially acceptable to be naked around each other no one would bat an eyelid. However, it is not. If all men were respectful towards women and women had nothing to fear and could walk wherever they wished at any time of day or night then there would be no need for women only spaces. However, the world is not like that.
In sport biology matters. Everything else it is societal factors that need considering. If all women were happy to accomodate males in their exclusive places then all is well.

However, social, emotional and mental sex can differ from the above which also has it's importance. — LuckyR

Not in sport and not in society when it comes to social norms around women’s right to certain exclusive places.
What about social, emotional and mental sex are different? I just see these as outmoded sexist tropes. Men tend toward traditional masculine pursuits but those that don’t are still men. Women who tend toward masculine pursuits are still women. There still needs to be a distinction for sport and changing/toilet/shelters. For fairness, for safety and for dignity. I don’t see this as controversial.

Maybe we don't experience the world "as it is", out of perspective, but I would say that all that characterizes a perspective is the incompleteness or partiality of the information that is being seen. So I would say we can keep Kant's phenomenal perspectives but that they don't have any interesting ontological meaning because from my perspective, what I see is just structural information in my sensory inputs that map to causes in the external world, a mapping that in principle can be probed in the functional structure of networks of neuronal activity. So to me the fact that we seee the world frok a perspective can be valid without implying anything fundamentslly mysterious. — Apustimelogist

Exactly, just because our interpretation of the world is an approximation that is processed from the data we have and how our brain processes it to minimise the use of energy, does not mean that there isn't an independent reality. We have science and equipment to fill in the gaps that we cannot see or hear or smell etc. bats wont see the sky as blue. apparently the ancient Greeks did not have a word for blue.

We're crazy as fuck. — frank

Always fascinating but I don’t think I’ll be visiting again any time soon.

uh. We're more woke than you guys, and I'm in a red state. Although, I have a feeling our medium and max security prisons are more violent than yours. — frank

You do put an awful lot of people behind bars.

I'm not either. I'm glad they have an interdisciplinary team to make the decisions instead of the local mob. — frank

I would prefer men and women to be kept separate. If the law states that isn’t necessary then so be it. Happily in Uk, they keep penises away from women’s prisons. It will be interesting to see how the recent ruling will affect the issue.

You can contact your state legislature if you're concerned. — frank

Im not concerned in the slightest.

No — frank

Why not? They are at risk

It is almost as if you are answering without reading. Nvrmind — I like sushi

What have I missed?

In my state each trans criminal is evaluated by an interdisciplinary team which decides housing based on safety and "other concerns." A trans-woman child abuser is likely to be murdered in a men's medium security prison. That's less likely in a women's prison. I think the community at large would be fairly ambivalent about where that person is sent. — frank

All child abusers are less likely to be killed in a women’s prison. Do you put them all there?

f the playing field is level. — I like sushi

I don't think it can be.

then I think it is worth arguing that women's only events are open to trans women too — I like sushi

Why? Why can they not compete in the men's (or open) category?

The cultural issues for women are not the same as for trans. I don't consider the trans issues the same at all.

When it comes to physical sports I am generally against trans women competing as trans women in women's sports — I like sushi

Generally? I think biological males competing against women is unfair and can be dangerous. It also, will discourage women's participation in sport.

For cases where there is no discernable difference (non-physical to low end physical sports), and there are currently men competing against women in tournaments, I see no reason to bar trans women from women's events — I like sushi

Why can't they compete in the men's/open category. Why the need to participate in women only competition?

Realistically we would be talking about one or two very passionate people interested in competing with other women as if they are a woman. What harm could this possibly cause? — I like sushi

Practically, you end up with biological males competing against women. I do not think that is fair or equitable

What is good? Many actions that are deemed good turn out to have long term harm.
I see many people who think they are good parents and I would differ vehemently on their opinion.
I try and live a good life but I'm sure many would judge me not that good at all.

For other sports I do not know enough about the differences between the sexes. I would imagine so-called cognitive sports like chess or poker are far more open to accepting anyone. In some areas there is no harm at all. — I like sushi

There are cultural issues for women that bar them from competing on a level playing field. Access to facilities, not being accepted etc.
To encourage women to participate it makes sense to have a female only category even if there are no physical advantages in a certain sport or pursuit.
It would be difficult to find a sport or pursuit where the physical and cultural advantages of men are not significant.

If there is no advantage in a sport is it okay for a trans woman to enter a women's tournament? — I like sushi

A trans woman will have the same advantages that a man has had when growing up. Why should a male be allowed to compete because they identify as a woman?

I'm wondering about your anti-woke bona fides. What do you think of gay marriage? — RogueAI

I’m a card carrying slightly left wing liberal. What consenting adults want to do is fine by me. I see no reason for homosexuals to barred from the same legal institution as heterosexuals.

I agree, but isn't that a "woke" idea? I thought the anti-woke crowd, such as yourself, wanted trans people to have to use the bathroom of their sex instead of the gender they identify as. — RogueAI

99.9% of people will do exactly that. Very few trans people look like the gender they wish to be. If they do then who would stop them?

Yes, destroying womens' sports is nuts, but how would you enforce a bathroom law? Suppose Al has transitioned to Alice and looks like a woman. Do you want to force Alice to use the men's restroom? Conversely, if Alice has transitioned to Al, and looks like a man, do you want to force Al to use women's restrooms? — RogueAI

Bathrooms have been used quite simply for decades. Not sure why it would be an issue now.

You wouldn't and you don't. So please just ignore the crazy people instead of baiting them. Because in responding to them you are already implying that they are amenable to persuasion and argument. Why do you keep asking a crazy person questions? Have you no sensible people to talk to? — unenlightened

I'm not baiting anyone. I'm interested in why people wish to eliminate women from sport and think female only facilities are unnecessary. I won't bother with you since you have made your stance clear and I doubt you will change.

I am happy for all sport to be destroyed, at least as a public display. And I am happy that women are generally not risking assault more when going to the public toilet than when walking down the street. Thus toilets need no more security than streets.

So you are happy asking leading questions like some cheap attorney rather than interpreting charitably and engaging with others on equal terms? — unenlightened

Why would I interpret charitably what I think is a crazy stance? Millions of women world wide enjoy sport but you would happily dismantle the structure that allows them to do that.
Women have much to contend with that I or any man doesn’t have to consider. Excluding men from exclusive women’s spaces is a simple and effective way of minimising assault (which is probably not the main issue) and embarrassment and feeling uncomfortable (which is hardly ever factored by men in discussing the issue) which of women having to share changing rooms and toilets with men.

I'm happy to let people who want to play games choose who they will or won't play with and against. Personally I think athletes cheat by exercising and practicing so we wimps stand no chance; so I won't compete in their sports.

I don't think restrooms need policing; they just need regular cleaning. I always use the one with the symbol person with trousers, not the one with the dress, but they are usually both 'open to anyone', except for the individual cubicles when occupied. — unenlightened

So you are happy for women’s sport to be destroyed and for women to risk assault when needing a to go to the toilet away from their home?

Personally, I'm happy to let people pick the toilet they feel most comfortable with, — unenlightened

You think all restrooms should be open to anyone? What about sports?

Great response. Your knowledge is greater than mine and I’ve learned a couple of things from these exchanges. My stance has not changed but it’s always good to acquire knowledge.

I think I've made my stance fairly clear. There are reasons why women have separate sports and separate exclusive places. Men (in which I include trans women) should not have access to these spaces. It is for society to work out how to protect trans women.

If you want to claim that the safety of cisgender women matters more than the safety of any other group, then just say it (and justify it). — Michael

There is a reason why the sexes have separate prisons. What about this don’t you understand?

Whereas you seem to be arguing that the safety of cisgender women matters more than the safety of transgender women, such that it's better for 10 transgender women to be the victims of sexual violence at the hands of a cisgender man than for 1 cisgender woman to the be the victim of sexual violence at the hands of a transgender woman? That would be incredibly sexist/transphobic — Michael

I’m arguing that men should not be allowed access to women’s spaces. If that is transphobia or sexism then I’m happy to be sexist and transphobic.

If our primary concern is in reducing the total amount of sexual violence in the prison population then we must determine which of these scenarios reduces the total amount of sexual violence in the prison population: — Michael

That’s exactly what a man would say.
Again why should women have to exposed to male violence for men to be protected from male violence?

And also how dangerous it is for a trans woman to be in a men's prison — Michael

Why should women be put at risk of male violence to protect men?

There is no single determinant in these cases. You seem to believe that the English words "male" and "female" refer to two clearly defined, mutually exclusive, and exhaustive biological qualities, but that simply isn't the case. Human biology is far more complex than our vocabulary accounts for.

The reality is that the English words "male" and "female" developed to name the two main phenotypes that typically distinguish humans, with other words like "hermaphrodite" used to name those with a phenotype that differs from the typical two. We later discovered that these two phenotypes are typically caused by two main sets of chromosomes (XY and XX), but also that there are more than these two sets of chromosomes, and that the relationship between sex chromosomes and phenotype is not absolute (e.g. those with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome have XY chromosomes but a phenotype that we would typically name "female"). — Michael

You are fixated on a tiny tiny minority of people that have had quirks in their development. These people are not a separate sex or both sexes.
I’m not sure what this brings to the debate. For the 99.98% of the results are 100% accurate.

And yet in your answer to my question above you didn't say "anyone can use bathroom A and anyone can use bathroom B".

So again you don't appear to be maintaining a consistent position. — Michael

I still haven't said it.

What molecules determine someone to be either a man or a woman?

But also your use of "immediately apparent" suggests that you think that biological sex is determined by outward appearance, and so not a concern of molecular biology at all, and brings back into question those who have undergone (complete) sex reassignment surgery.

You don't appear to be maintaining a consistent position. — Michael

It's quite an established field of science. I assume you already are aware or can look it up.

I think I can determine the sex of 99.999% of adults from a glance. It is only the tiny tiny minority of people you appear to be fixated on that may need more scientific basis to determine their sex.

So the law ought allow for anyone to use any bathroom? — Michael

It has worked quite well until about a decade ago. Not sure why it has become so complicated.

What would you suggest?

So which aspect of an intersex person’s biology determines them to be either male or female? — Michael

Molecular biology in the cases that are not immediately apparent.

That’s part of why the answer to these questions isn’t so simple. If a transgender man is outwardly indistinguishable from a cisgender man and a transgender woman outwardly indistinguishable from a cisgender woman then how is something like bathroom usage to be legislated and policed?

If we legislate to say that sex chromosomes determine which bathroom someone can use (ignoring for the moment the case of being intersex) then someone like Buck Angel (as he has already been mentioned) is going to face constant abuse and arrest for using the “women’s” bathroom because by outward appearance he looks like the typical biological man. — Michael

It is extremely simple. If someone is indistinguishable then no one will know or care. The law does not need to get involved. Just like they don't need to get involved when very masculine looking women go to the loo.

If Buck Angel is a woman then Buck Angel can go to the female facilities.

What about biology determines if someone is male or female? You don’t seem to recognise that being intersex is a biological condition. — Michael

I recognise that intersex people have ambiguous genitalia, reproductive organs, chromosones etc. But they aren't neither or both sexes.

Is this also true of those who undergo sex reassignment surgery (including genitals)? Or is it only “natural” appearance that matters? — Michael

I would say only natural but if someone has surgery and looks like a woman, who would know otherwise?

Determined by what? — Michael

Biology.

I’m not disputing your suggestions, just seeking clarity. — Michael

What are you confused about?

They’re intersex — Michael

There is no person that is not male or female. There may be difficulty categorising them when they are young but they are either male or female. If there is some doubt then they should use the facilities that most reflect their appearance.

The general gist I get from your answer is that the divisions should be “cisgender women” and “everyone else”? — Michael

There is a reason why women have exclusive sports and have exclusive spaces. I doubt any bloke would care about changing rooms/lavatories or competing with women. Is it not obvious why there is segregation?