Well in my experience, outside of online pontificating, everyone I know uses external genital appearance as the final practical arbiter of an individual's gender, thus fully transitioned trans folks pass that test. Perhaps your experience is different. I'm not speaking of athletic competition, rather the "exclusive places" argument. — LuckyR

The “exclusive places” are for females. A man without a penis does not pass that test. Just because a man has no penis doesn’t mean he automatically looks like a woman. Do you think women should have places where men are excluded from?

No more than the microscope slides, organs and bones I worked on in Pathology. Those patients died, in some case and recovered in others. We preserved parts of them for diagnosis, scientific study and teaching. We didn't make a public spectacle of them. While not violent, hurtful or destructive, this isn't art, either,. — Vera Mont

Many people considered it art. I wasn’t a fan but I saw them in a very posh gallery in London.

So you agree there isn't much of a physical advantage in transwomen competing in darts?

If so then we're reverting to the "exclusive spaces" argument (which I've addressed, and you've not commented on in reply). — LuckyR

I said the male advantage in those sports comes from the social aspects. If women want to fully participate it makes sense to have women only competition. I disagree that fully transitioned trans women should have access to these spaces. A clean definition line needs drawing imho. I think we are on the same page apart from how fully transitioned people are treated.

To me, art is creative, rather than destructive. That's the line I draw. — Vera Mont

Is Damien Hurst’s cow in formaldehyde art?
I assume the cow didn’t die of natural causes.

This brings to mind something from the Tao Te Ching - from Verse 38, Gia-Fu Fengs translation.

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order. — T Clark

Why does it bring to mind that?

So you're unfamiliar with the height and muscle development advantage in sports that male-to-female transexuals possess? Okay, then let me introduce the issue to you (even though it was a hotly debated concept within this very thread). — LuckyR

I think we have our wires crossed. There is no debate because men have significant physical advantages over women.

Some people admire bullfighting as an art form, some serial killers include ritual mutilation of their victims and I've heard of the artistry of a very effective inquisitor. But having been forced to watch "the physicality" of hockey games so anticipated by their fans and boxing matches, I conclude that no matter how artfully violence is employed, I can't regard it as art. — Vera Mont

A clean left hook can be as admired as ballet by some. Ballet is art.

Art engenders a reaction, so can a brutal knockdown.

As someone said earlier, there is performance and an art in bullfighting.

Without knowing for certain, I’m guessing how you think it should be done is significantly different from how I think it should be done. — T Clark

Guess away. I’m a slightly left of centre liberal who expects people to step up in life. Do whatever they wish in private as long as it doesn’t affect the people around them too much.

You write as if there is not such a system in place already. There is, but perhaps it is not being done in accordance with your preferences. There is often no consensus on who is we and who is they. — T Clark

Yes that is correct. It definitely isn’t being done as I think it should.

I wasn’t speaking against social control, it’s needed. I was only making the distinction between that and morality. But when you take out the idea of morality, social control loses much of its authority. And that’s probably a good thing. They’re doing it because they want to control my behavior, not because I did anything wrong. — T Clark

I think society needs controlling without any need for recourse to morality. It shouldn’t be a “they” it should be a “we”
We need a framework for social interactions that don’t need to be linked with morality. A few social expectations of behaviour and dress would be a nice start.

The formal systems of so-called morality you discuss are more about how someone thinks other people should behave. As I see it, that's not morality at all, it's social control — T Clark

The older I get the and the more permissive society has become a little bit of agreed social control would be good thing.

I have thousands of unwritten rules for all occasions and these change as circumstances change. Are they morals? I don't think they are but I like when I recently thought about why I think and act how I do, it was quite amusing think of the actions consciously. We all do it but the structure of my thousands of rules come from a fairly consistent framework. Many people have a terrible framework for making decisions and how they act. Is that a lack of morals or just bad coping strategies for how they've been raised?

Thanks for saying nothing at all and pushing the can down the road. Proactive is the word for the day. — substantivalism

Why are people so keen to dismantle women’s exclusive places? Why do we need to re engineer bathrooms and changing rooms for a less safe inferior solution? There are social aspects of these places that aren’t factored in. I find the whole mindset dismissive of women.

I was responding to the physical prowess argument, so your reply misses my point. — LuckyR

What was your point? What argument is there about physical prowess? It’s a biological fact.

I don't disagree in strength and speed sports. Billiards, darts and poker, not so much. As to exclusive places, if someone has had surgery, IMO they're entitled. — LuckyR

There is the social aspect of competing in leagues with darts snooker etc. access to facilities etc that mean it makes sense to have female only pursuits. Darts is a very social and male dominated pursuit. If women want to pursue it then a women’s only league seems reasonable.
Imho, exclusive places are for females. We can agree to disagree but it’s for women to decide in the end.

The right to pee without any biological males around? — frank

Seems a reasonable request

There are social norms that needed to change. It's not illegal to point and laugh at a crossdresser [ETA I used this term, because I was going to make a point about how in the 70's and 80's people did exactly that when they saw crossdressers], but it's still wrong and polite society should not tolerate that behavior. — RogueAI

Manners can always improve and I think the world (well where I reside) is very tolerant of people and their life choices.

think society should be more tolerant of trans people — RogueAI

I’m very tolerant and trans people can do whatever they wish if it is within the law. What they cannot do is infringe the rights of women. Why should people be tolerant of that?

But why do we have this female space? You've said before that it's because cis women would be uncomfortable sharing a changing room with biological men. But they'll also be uncomfortable sharing a changing room with "passing" trans men. So if "making cis women uncomfortable" is a good reason to exclude biological men from these changing rooms it must also be a good reason to exclude "passing" trans men from these changing rooms. — Michael

I agree and I doubt that trans men would use the woman's bathroom BUT if they insisted then they have every right to do so. They are female.

Because of the anti-trans agenda. — Michael

I don't see it in real life in UK but there is always nutters that use issues for their own agenda.

You seem somewhat bothered by something. Not sure what it is.

Anyway, you can have the last word. Bye have fun — I like sushi

Bothered? I'm discussing a topic on a message board. The topic being males in female only spaces.

But thanks for letting me have the last word. Not sure what I've said that isn't logical and equitable.

The cisgender woman in the women's changing room isn't going to know that the muscular, bearded person changing next to them was actually born a woman, and is going to be as uncomfortable with them being there as they would be a cisgender man being there. — Michael

I agree.

If a trans man (after having surgery) is indistinguishable from a cis man, then what rationale is there for allowing trans men in women's changing rooms but not cis men? — Michael

Because they are a woman. They have every right to use a female space.

Well then now we get into murky territory. Who gets to decide whether or not a trans woman looks enough like a woman to use the women's changing room? Different people might have different opinions. And sometimes cisgender women are mistaken for men. — Michael

I think in 99.99% of the time it is obvious. There has been no issue. No murky territory.

Why would manly looking women now be an issue since it hasn't been before?

If they've had surgery, how would you know?

What about trans men (esp. after hormones and surgery)? Ought they use women's changing rooms because they're biological women? — Michael

If a person looks like a woman then there would be no issue. Society isn't spending billions on gender recognition measures to eradicate men who look like women from using bathrooms. Most trans women do not look like women.

I see no issue with trans men using the male changing room. They pose no potential threat and men have a different attitude to females in their private spaces. Women in our society are more vulnerable and there are social mores that mean they are uncomfortable with men around these places.
If a trans man wants to use a women's restroom they have every right should they wish. No idea why they would.

Trans women are a special case of males though — I like sushi

In what way are they special? Over and above any other special case?

The reason trans women are trans women is because they are trans women. They are not women. — I like sushi

Agreed 100%

It is uncivil to treat someone who wishes to be treated one way another way simply because it displeases you. — I like sushi

Do you think some women want trans women excluded from their exclusive places because it displeases them? Do you see no discomfort or risk from allowing males in changing rooms etc?

If it is about treating someone with respect and dignity I see no real issue — I like sushi

What about treating women with dignity and respect?

We are not talking about delusional people, we are talking about people who feel a certain way and only want a modicum of social acceptance — I like sushi

I think they are deluded to think of themselves as a woman and expect women to accomodate their wishes.

of course there are always agitators though. — I like sushi

Not just agitators but weirdos who will impersonate a genuine trans women for nefarious gratifications.

For the sake of clarity, if there is no discernable difference, — I like sushi

I replied saying that there isn't a sport where there is no discernable difference and if there was there was no point in having a female category. If there was a female category in such a sport why would a trans woman need or wish to compete in that category?
There was no side stepping.

If the choice is effectively arbitrary then it does not matter where people compete. — I like sushi

I agree 100% but it never is. IMHO.

Given that trans women classify themselves as a types of women (if not biologically female) and wish to be treated as trans women - not men in dressed - then the only reason I can see to bar them is pure prejudice. — I like sushi

Why is it prejudice to not recognise trans women as women? They are not women.

I am NOT talking about any of this as a one way street. Plenty of trans women do not think of themselves as female and actual women, they are quite happy to state they merely wish to be treated as women, within certain limitations, and respect as a human being. — I like sushi

I am not taking it as a one way street. Trans women can dress, act and be whoever they wish to be. They just are not women. Biology is far from the determinant factor. It is in sports but everything else, society molds us all. If it were socially acceptable to be naked around each other no one would bat an eyelid. However, it is not. If all men were respectful towards women and women had nothing to fear and could walk wherever they wished at any time of day or night then there would be no need for women only spaces. However, the world is not like that.
In sport biology matters. Everything else it is societal factors that need considering. If all women were happy to accomodate males in their exclusive places then all is well.

However, social, emotional and mental sex can differ from the above which also has it's importance. — LuckyR

Not in sport and not in society when it comes to social norms around women’s right to certain exclusive places.
What about social, emotional and mental sex are different? I just see these as outmoded sexist tropes. Men tend toward traditional masculine pursuits but those that don’t are still men. Women who tend toward masculine pursuits are still women. There still needs to be a distinction for sport and changing/toilet/shelters. For fairness, for safety and for dignity. I don’t see this as controversial.

Maybe we don't experience the world "as it is", out of perspective, but I would say that all that characterizes a perspective is the incompleteness or partiality of the information that is being seen. So I would say we can keep Kant's phenomenal perspectives but that they don't have any interesting ontological meaning because from my perspective, what I see is just structural information in my sensory inputs that map to causes in the external world, a mapping that in principle can be probed in the functional structure of networks of neuronal activity. So to me the fact that we seee the world frok a perspective can be valid without implying anything fundamentslly mysterious. — Apustimelogist

Exactly, just because our interpretation of the world is an approximation that is processed from the data we have and how our brain processes it to minimise the use of energy, does not mean that there isn't an independent reality. We have science and equipment to fill in the gaps that we cannot see or hear or smell etc. bats wont see the sky as blue. apparently the ancient Greeks did not have a word for blue.

We're crazy as fuck. — frank

Always fascinating but I don’t think I’ll be visiting again any time soon.

uh. We're more woke than you guys, and I'm in a red state. Although, I have a feeling our medium and max security prisons are more violent than yours. — frank

You do put an awful lot of people behind bars.

I'm not either. I'm glad they have an interdisciplinary team to make the decisions instead of the local mob. — frank

I would prefer men and women to be kept separate. If the law states that isn’t necessary then so be it. Happily in Uk, they keep penises away from women’s prisons. It will be interesting to see how the recent ruling will affect the issue.

You can contact your state legislature if you're concerned. — frank

Im not concerned in the slightest.

No — frank

Why not? They are at risk

It is almost as if you are answering without reading. Nvrmind — I like sushi

What have I missed?

In my state each trans criminal is evaluated by an interdisciplinary team which decides housing based on safety and "other concerns." A trans-woman child abuser is likely to be murdered in a men's medium security prison. That's less likely in a women's prison. I think the community at large would be fairly ambivalent about where that person is sent. — frank

All child abusers are less likely to be killed in a women’s prison. Do you put them all there?

f the playing field is level. — I like sushi

I don't think it can be.

then I think it is worth arguing that women's only events are open to trans women too — I like sushi

Why? Why can they not compete in the men's (or open) category?

The cultural issues for women are not the same as for trans. I don't consider the trans issues the same at all.

When it comes to physical sports I am generally against trans women competing as trans women in women's sports — I like sushi

Generally? I think biological males competing against women is unfair and can be dangerous. It also, will discourage women's participation in sport.

For cases where there is no discernable difference (non-physical to low end physical sports), and there are currently men competing against women in tournaments, I see no reason to bar trans women from women's events — I like sushi

Why can't they compete in the men's/open category. Why the need to participate in women only competition?

Realistically we would be talking about one or two very passionate people interested in competing with other women as if they are a woman. What harm could this possibly cause? — I like sushi

Practically, you end up with biological males competing against women. I do not think that is fair or equitable

What is good? Many actions that are deemed good turn out to have long term harm.
I see many people who think they are good parents and I would differ vehemently on their opinion.
I try and live a good life but I'm sure many would judge me not that good at all.

For other sports I do not know enough about the differences between the sexes. I would imagine so-called cognitive sports like chess or poker are far more open to accepting anyone. In some areas there is no harm at all. — I like sushi

There are cultural issues for women that bar them from competing on a level playing field. Access to facilities, not being accepted etc.
To encourage women to participate it makes sense to have a female only category even if there are no physical advantages in a certain sport or pursuit.
It would be difficult to find a sport or pursuit where the physical and cultural advantages of men are not significant.

If there is no advantage in a sport is it okay for a trans woman to enter a women's tournament? — I like sushi

A trans woman will have the same advantages that a man has had when growing up. Why should a male be allowed to compete because they identify as a woman?

I'm wondering about your anti-woke bona fides. What do you think of gay marriage? — RogueAI

I’m a card carrying slightly left wing liberal. What consenting adults want to do is fine by me. I see no reason for homosexuals to barred from the same legal institution as heterosexuals.

I agree, but isn't that a "woke" idea? I thought the anti-woke crowd, such as yourself, wanted trans people to have to use the bathroom of their sex instead of the gender they identify as. — RogueAI

99.9% of people will do exactly that. Very few trans people look like the gender they wish to be. If they do then who would stop them?