There is no apartheid. Arab muslims who are Israeli have equal rights. Every Israeli has equal rights. No one is owed citizenship.

The charges are spurious and Israel's bombings are targeted. Very humane combatant to civilian ratio.

I can distinguish between powerful and weaker. Israel is currently more powerful than the Gazan or West Bank authorities. Thankfully. The more powerful side isn't inherently in the wrong when it acts against the weaker side. Weak can still be thoroughly evil.

Well there's the Polish resistance and the Jewish resistance and these are different matters. I believe in the Jewish resistance they mostly kept their resistance against military targets or railroads or other infrastructure like that. Regardless, reprisals intentionally directed at innocent civilians are clearly evil and deserving of retribution.

Yes they could be brutal against US soldiers in Vietnam. Hamas and the PLO consider all of Israel occupied land so you'll get brutality anywhere. It would be as if the Vietcong attacked American civilians in Massachusetts and claimed it was occupied land and that their attack constituted resistance because Massachusetts is occupied. If we listen to the actual phone calls of 10/7 perpetrators they're just bragging about killing Jews. I know for westerners it's all about "occupation" and the "west bank" but in the middle east it's a bit different.

I just don't see how targeted bombings constitute crimes against humanity. If so, everyone is guilty of it and the term has little meaning.

Yes, yes. That means an awful lot coming from someone who is spinning apologetics for crimes against humanity. — Tzeentch

Attacking buildings that Hamas operates from is not a crime against humanity.

Oh sure, and I could claim that the Polish resistance fighters who carried out the Warsaw Uprising were terrorists and criminals. — Tzeentch

Did Polish resistance fighters parachute into German musical festivals and go on a rape and murder sprees? Did they go house to house torturing and raping left-wing Germans for no reason at all? Did they operate from a government that openly and clearly calls for the destruction of Germany and the subjugation of the German people under Jewish rule?

If nothing else, consider this: Israeli Arabs are treated better than Arabs anywhere else in the Arab world. They have full equal rights and participation in Parliament. That would be like if German Jews were the best treated Jews in Europe. This is where things fall apart.

If German Jews were treated well by Germany but Jews elsewhere were not I would need to look further.

I could claim that Palestinian SS abducted that shepherd boy. I could say that Palestinian SS murder Israeli settlers. Every single Hamas rocket fired at Israel is a war crime. You see only black and white.

Amalek in normal jewish parlance is any serious enemy of Israel. But no, I don't think Israel intends to murder their cows and chickens. Or their civilians for that matter, as demonstrated by how Israel provides them with medical aid and humanitarian aid.

@ENOAH take note that this is how discussions devolve.

I had a response typed out to last post but upon reading this I realized it didn't really matter what I said bc propaganda has convinced you that israelis in the west bank are einsatzgruppen. it's interesting because i consider palestinians in that areas nazis -- they recently abducted and stoned to death a 14 year shepherd boy among others. yet you never hear that condemned. point being, it's back and forth. :roll:

I'm looking over Netanyahu's postwars plans and I don't see anything about ridding Gaza of Palestinian Arabs. I do see a strong Israeli security presence at least for a time. The plan also states so that there will be no israeli civilian or settlements in Gaza after the war so.... would why would israel cleanse Gaza if it's just going be empty? Anyway, I don't see anything in here about ethnic cleansing.

As for Amalek, Netanyahu called Hamas Amalek and the comparison is fitting seeing as both groups targeted weak, vulnerable populations and Hamas has fomented Jew hate since day one. They are unmistakably enemies of the Jewish people and they don't try to hide it.

Of course it's not grounds for congratulations per se. I only mention it with regard to the genocide charge. The civilian to combatant ratio is quite humane, historically speaking. We should also remember that Hamas employs child soldiers as young as 14 and will turn areas where children gather as the bases of their military operations. Additionally, around 12% of Hamas's own rockets misfire and land in Gaza and Hamas has fired many thousand of rockets into Israel since 10/7. These rockets will kill their own and are surely included in the fatality count.

Not much reasoning to be done with the modern day brownshirts. I remember 9/11 when ~3k Americans died and there was no question we were going after al-Qaeda. 180k Afghanis died in that war. A comparable event happens in Israel, but with greater degrees of rape and torture, and Israel is immediately seen as committing genocide despite strict ROEs and letting in hundreds of trucks of aid. "Genocide" accusations are modern day is a modern day blood libel. And it goes without saying if Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians it could but has taken a much more careful route.

Shouldn't you be outside chanting "from the river to the sea" with your fellow protestors? Calling for Arab domination of Israel like your keffiyeh-clad friends? We don't want no two state we want all of 48. Go do your activism.

And when you do, make sure to equate the deaths of maybe 8 or 9000 civilians to the 11 million killed in the holocaust because it's like totally the same thing.

Run along now, I hear they're giving free keffiyehs.

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Have you considered converting to Islam? I hear they're very welcoming and they've got an imam giving prayers at Columbia right now.

Are you concerned about the rise of Islamophobia?

Are you concerned about the rise of anti-semitism on college campuses?

It goes from myths to legends to real history and it's not always clear where the line is. That's what fascinates me. Consider the message/big picture themes of these stories in contrast to other stories of the time. That's what it makes it revolutionary. This is just one tribe's experience with the being known as YHWH ofc it could be described as ethnocentric.

The Gaza Health ministry now reports fatalities at 22k. Israel has killed 13k Hamas, so that brings us to 9k civilians. Then consider that Hamas's rockets will often misfire and hit their own civilians.

And calling it a holocaust is ridiculous and of course only applied to Israel.

Again, much bigger death tolls elsewhere... no Jews, no news. The world has a Jew obsession. Israel is fighting a very humane war here ratio-wise and aid wise.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/

Modern day blood libel. Mass starvation? Seriously? :lol: Israel has let in more aid than those idiots at the UN know what to do with. Doesn't it bother you that there there's never a peep of protest when violence occurs in Africa? Christians getting hacked to death by Islamists in Nigeria, not a peep. Not a peep for Assad or Hussein, but the Jewish nation responds to Islamist aggression in a very civil manner and all hell breaks loose. No Jews, no news.

I'd wager less than 10k civilians killed.

"From the river to the sea" is itself a call for ethnic cleansing. A call for a return to dhimmi status. Parents of Columbia students may be questioning their decisions after learning that they've been spending $90k/year to have their children turned into little intifada warriors and while getting lectured & taught by open supporters of terrorist groups.

Exactly how I feel about the American left turning out en masse on college campuses to support genocidal murderers. Protestors chanting "we are all hamas."

The quote I posted was existentialism. Man creates his own values. I thought a comparison of belief systems might be fruitful to the discussion. I sought to understand my interlocutor's belief system. The discussion at this point was about Judaism.

If a minority population of white supremacists under a white supremacist government killed 1200 blacks in an alternative timeline where blacks are the dominant power group, would you appreciate people calling for a ceasefire or to not respond at all? How would you respond to the world telling you that you need to be nicer to them and stop oppressing them. You need to let them import whatever weapons (i.e. grant them statehood) despite their government's stated intention to either murder or subjugate you. Anything else would be apartheid.

You don't view intention as morally relevant. :roll: :lol:

False dichotomy. — Benkei

Is my quote representative of your beliefs or not? I'd figure it is. You're an atheistic materialist. No? The universe has no real meaning/value save what we choose to impose?

But nice try trying to make this personal and misrepresenting what I said so you can pretend I'm just another bigoted antisemite. — Benkei

But I really get the sense that you are. You talk about xenophobic rabbis. I can tell you don't like that the Jews stick to their own. You probably think they believe themselves superior. You may not be a Christian, but you're familiar with the New Testament - a massive source of anti-semitism. You routinely criticize Jewish barbarism, yet never really Muslim barbarism. And now you want me to condemn Bibi for waging war on Hamas after murdering 1200 Israelis? The idea that Judaism is the dumbest religion is also anti-semitic and ridiculous. But above all, it would be your attempt to deny and deconstruct Jewish identity that is anti-semitic. Judaism is passed on through the mother and Judaism is indigenous to Israel. It is the historic homeland of the Jews with Jerusalem as the cultic center.

You're an atheist who doesn't believe in anything. Reminds me of a quote.

"Born from oblivion; bear children, hell-bound as ourselves; go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us."

Yet you continue to moralize, hate, and judge -- especially the Jews. Why do you even care how a group defines itself? You need a therapist who you can talk with about the Jews who are apparently the worst of all religions, the source of all religious evil.

Come to think of it, isn't a 28 year old Dutch woman due to be euthanized next month for depression? Why is death a bad thing, after all. Why prefer it over life? Why does life even have value? :chin: Death does mean no more pain, after all. Why drudge yourself to work in the morning when you could just euthanize yourself? The muslims will not have a hard time with this country - although you have a potential savoir in Geert.

Is the man allowed to sign the document to order the deportation process given the reasonable assumption that it would happen regardless of his signature?

What are your thoughts on self-sacrifice in this instance? The refusal to sign could be reasonably inferred to make no essential, utilitarian difference.

Regardless of whether we call Palestinians "indigenous" or not -- and I've heard all types of theories e.g. that many of them descend from workers imported by the Ottoman empire in the 19th century, that they're genetically closer to Jordan or Egypt.... Whatever it is, I think most Israelis would be fine giving them a state as long as they accepted the existence of Israel which they have not and have instead just engaged in constant violence since Israel's inception. It's a security matter above all else. Israel doesn't want Hamas or the PLO importing nukes or biological weapons.

Did you get that line from the Talmud? — Lionino

:roll:

This depends on the particular persons engaged that "futile" situation. — 180 Proof

I don't see how the particular individual matters much. Historically, he would be a community leader. Do you understand the scenario?

Tbh I mentally checked out when I read Judaism is "fucking dumb." I get it, you think all the religions of the world are "fucking dumb" except, apparently, whatever you follow (which you have not made entirely clear). That belief would be truth and it is that which must be taught to everyone else including those idiots in the Middle East. I'm just not dealing with it today. I'll respond to your bigotry before anything else. So no, you don't get a response from me until I deal with the attitudes/assumptions behind your response. Saying Judaism is a "fucking dumb" religion is a ridiculous statement. Maybe it's that monotheism is stupid? Or all theisms in general are stupid? Then just say that. :roll:

But I suspect that there's something about Judaism in particular that you do not like which is what makes you a bigot. :wink:

All true. But what of self-sacrifice in an instance where, according to the social reality, it would seem completely futile?

Consider the Judenrat in the Lodz ghetto. This example is drawn from Arendt's work in Eichmann in Jerusalem. You can sign the document to summon the police to round up some of the populace to send them off them on trains to certain death, or you could choose not to sign. But if you don't sign, you'll be hanged the next day and someone else will fill your position who will sign and the group will be rounded up regardless. Your sacrifice will be completely meaningless and make no ultimate difference to the matter. Do we still self-sacrifice here?

Perhaps, but then I don't think we have Christianity given Paul's role in spreading it. I wasn't raised Christian so I don't have that baggage. I understand though that many Christians focus quite strongly on Paul's views and place them essentially on par with Jesus's word.

Iran might hope for this, but perhaps the lure for Bibi is too great now. IDF is already talking of counter strikes. — ssu

After the attack I figure Israel must respond in some way to save face even if its orchestrated. Yet Israel did not respond militarily within a day or two of the attack so clearly they're taking their time with it. Bibi already has a war with Hamas and I don't see potentially sparking WWIII as something that he'd hope to get involved with, yet he must respond in some way. How - I don't know.

And this just undermines also the idea that all Arab countries are just waiting to get the chance to kill all the Jews and/or push them into the sea. — ssu

Yeah, this idea is somewhat of a relic of wars of past decades as well as the fact that Israel has no true friends in the region. It is not the case for all the Arabs, but some certain wish for Israel's demise. Israel and Jordan or the Saudis may share common enemies, but I would hardly call them "friends" like the US-UK are or the US and Canada. Even biblically, Israel is described as a nation which often goes at it alone. And Israel is not wrong in being cautious of Islam. The last Jewish state lasted 103 years (2nd and 1st century BC), this current one is at 76 and has had 8 wars so I'd expect a few more over the next few decades.

Whatever it is that you or your ancestors believed in, I want you to know that it's fucking dumb and it's clearly devolved from what it was. Let me explain it to you. Let me tell you what it means to be Dutch. Now go open your borders and welcome in more migrants.

I hate the 72 virgins crowd as much as anyone, but sometimes one must be willing to lay down one's life especially against totalitarian systems which thrive/perpetuate off the idea that a single person's death is meaningless and futile and makes zero ultimate difference. See Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem.

Paul says a lot of things I don't much like. I like the idea that one's good deeds should outnumber one's bad deeds. That is something we flawed creatures can manage. — BC

I also do not agree with everything that Paul says nor do I believe his word should be taken as absolute truth. That's Jewish tradition. Paul has always seemed to me a very flawed person trying to make the best of his situation.

Nor would it fly in Jewish circles. I'll hear this song and think to myself "no way." Paul is right when he says all have sinned. But Judaism doesn't say we're all rotten to the core with sin. As long as your good deeds outnumber your sins you're considered righteous. :ok:

So just do more good than bad. But Paul falls short in many ways and he knows he's gonna need a lot of grace and a lot of faith.

And this just shows how difficult it is to get a negotiated peace in the Middle East. — ssu

However, as recent events have demonstrated, the entire Arab world is not Israel's enemy. Jordan and the Saudis evidently are not fans of the Iranian regime and the Arab world has its own divides.

Why not would they? They still need to have relations with European and Asian states. They couldn't do it unnoticed, that's for sure. — ssu

Did the Gazans think this way on 10/7? Or during the second intifada? Their plan is to defeat Israel and then it's onto Europe. Look up the Banu Qurayza. You'll hear "Khybar, Khybar ya Yahud" chanted.

You can convert to it — Benkei

And try converting out of it. A Jew who believes Jesus is divine is a heretical Jew. You don't lose your Judaism by accepting Jesus you just invoke the wrath of the community. As you should by accepting a man who walked the Earth as God. Once a Jew, always a Jew.

You can call Judaism dumb, I don't care. Go back to your own worldview where humanity (European humanity, that is) apparently only becomes intelligent during the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries. Or is it later with the rise of atheism? I guess who needs religious thought when you've got Dawkins and Harris. The Middle East is stupid because they are religious but you are smart because you know there is no God. :up:

If Judaism is a dumb religion can you show me a smart one? If you think all religion is "fucking dumb" just say that :vomit:

You know so little about Judaism, yet judge so much. And surely if Judaism is "fucking dumb" then Islam must be really fucking dumb. So are there smart religions or is only secular atheism smart?

You don't believe that one's conscience could lead one to, for instance, retrieve an escaped slave or euthanize something or someone hastily (or not euthanize where it should be done)?

I honestly do believe people's consciences can lead them very astray (or to very different places morally). Today in the US we had many people openly supporting Hezbollah and Hamas out on the streets willing to risk arrest. Morality is different across time and place and these societies can foster very different "moral intuitions" or "consciences" among its inhabitants. Also people perceive reality in vastly different ways through factors such as IQ, education, and experience. So yes, I believe one's conscience can tell one to do vile things.

I make no claims about the existence of an afterlife. I simply state a belief in one tends to lead to heroism and martyrdom, while a conviction in the lack of one wouldn't really encourage such things.

Several of the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials claimed to be motivated by their conscience. They saw what they were doing as best for the fate of their country as well as humanity as a whole. IIRC Hannah Arendt in Eichmann in Jerusalem describes how Nazis were taught to e.g. resist the "temptation" to be merciful and instead dutifully perform their national mission. Nurture can lead one's conscience down very strange paths.