There were primative monasteries to Christianity which radical followers of Judaism would meet in on the Sabbath and worship: namely the Therapeutae. — DifferentiatingEgg

Did they worship Jesus in these "monasteries?" Or were they just doing worship which others came to associate with Christian worship?

"the wretched are alone the good; the poor, the weak, the lowly, are alone the good; the suffering, the needy, the sick, the loathsome, are the only ones who are pious, the only ones who are blessed, for them alone is salvation — Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals § 7, First Essay

Not at all Jewish, but closer to the message of the gospels. Some Christians do consider Jesus as "peak Judaism" though so it could fit. But are there are too many strong, rich, and proud Jews who are loved and respected for this to be the case. Wealth is often seen as divine blessing.

but you, on the other hand, you aristocrats, you men of power, you are to all eternity the evil, the horrible, the covetous, the insatiate, the godless; eternally also shall you be the unblessed, the cursed, the damned! — Nietzsche, Genealogy of Morals § 7, First Essay

Godless and hedonistic men of power do get a bad rap, but that's because they're godless and hedonistic, not because they're wealthy.

What do you think Nietzsche would make of the great nobility, wealth and grandeur of King David and Solomon? Or how it is written "How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob; how lovely are your homes, O Israel!" (Num. 24:5).

Yet beautiful Saul is replaced by ruddy David. So beauty is recognized as not a good method for choosing a king. David is also the smallest of his brothers and the least impressive. There you go. The hatred of beauty.

A lot can be found in the OT and even more can be interpreted. And the job is considerably easier if you ignore content that contradicts your thesis.

Indeed, and the idea that the wretched, slaves, etc. were in their place precisely because they were wicked was obviously a popular opinion amongst the ancient Jews, since so many texts feel the need to weigh in on it. — Count Timothy von Icarus

You say obviously, but I've read a fair bit of ancient Jewish lit and this isn't really a theme that appears much if at all. The stronger theme is caring for the poor and not all poor are presumed to be wicked. Elijah was poor, but pious. Some of the Talmudists were poor, but this is treated sympathetically. It is a great mitzvah to help them, but yes, wealth is treated as a blessing. Jewish tradition is naturally self-reflective, so if misfortune strikes it is natural to look for reasons.

I will give Nietzsche the benefit of the doubt here though and assume he is not primarily thinking of the fairly warrior-centric Hebrew culture of Joshua and Judges though, and more of later periods. The problem though is that Maccabees isn't that different. — Count Timothy von Icarus

Josephus frequently describes the Hasmoneans as "noble" and often mentions their beauty. Herod's wife was a Hasmonean and she wasn't shy about it. The Herodians hated her. A noble and proud people, indeed. But there was no true counter-force in terms of values.

I suspect Nietzsche is taking certain biblical ideas, ignoring evidence to the contrary, and then overstating these ideas and then attributing them to a shadowy priestly class. Then he situates this shadowy priestly class against a noble and proud aristocracy to form his history/genealogy.

Man, I'm just trying to step into your world, that's all. Learn a bit about the Jews.

So I guess it goes something like this: The slaves in Egypt start their values revolution and begin hating all things noble and beautiful and strong. ~1400 years later at the time of Jesus this is what the Pharisees are. The Pharisees also detest beauty and strength as they are the ancestors of these slaves.

But Jesus doesn't. Jesus tells them to not build a value system based on resentment and the Pharisees hate that so they persecute him.

Is that the gist of it?

Ok so during their time in slavery the Jews began hating all that is beautiful and noble.

I'll stop here because I know better than to question your Bible.

(My Bible is a little more open to questioning btw but I digress...)

I'm not asking for a specific date. Can you put it within a century or two? Or just give me a name of a biblical figure.

It was the Jews who, in opposition to the aristocratic equation (good = aristocratic = beautiful = happy = loved by the gods), dared with a terrifying logic to suggest the contrary equation, and indeed to maintain with the teeth of the most profound hatred (the hatred of weakness) this contrary equation, namely, "the wretched are alone the good; the poor, the weak, the lowly, are alone the good; the suffering, the needy, the sick, the loathsome, are the only ones who are pious, the only ones who are blessed, for them alone is salvation — Nietzsche, Genealogy 7

Sounds more like the Gospel to me.

In any case, I would love to ask Nietzsche when the Jews began espousing such a message. Given that I don't see this message anywhere in the Hebrew Bible when did it begin? If the Jews hate that which is noble why did they have wealthy and noble kings?

When did this hating of the beautiful begin again?

You write as if you work in an IDF command center. :roll:

How would you know the breakdown between innocent civilian and plain clothed terrorist in a group in Gaza?

But you just said yourself they have no clue where the terrorists are. — Tzeentch

I didn't say that. Israeli intel can still locate and target them even if they aren't in uniform.

No there's a target/terrorist in mind with these strikes. A hospital becomes a legitimate target if it's being used for military purposes.

No, Israel targets terrorists who embed themselves in civilian populations. These terrorists often do not wear uniforms. It is not the deliberate murder of innocents. If Israel deliberately murdered innocents we'd see a lot more dead.

This I get. But what does Trump have to do with it? As to Palestinians, what do you suppose - or maybe you know - what the average Palestinian thinks about the last few years? — tim wood

Trump is the greatest friend Israel has ever had in the Presidency and has consistently labeled Hamas and its supporters as wicked.

Those who understand the deliberate murder of innocent civilians as "resistance" or as being justified in some sense are disqualified from further opinions. Their views place them outside of civilization.

You really know nothing about the man, do you. — tim wood

You obsess over Trump. I obsess over the anti-American, anti-Israeli hate mobs destroying our universities, indoctrinating our youth, and spreading Jew-hate and violence across the Western world.

If 1200 of your people were massacred a few years ago and much of the world cheered or excused it as "resistance" your perspective would be different.

Why? How? — tim wood

Because he is pro-Israel, pro-bitcoin, and pro-Tesla. Because he deports those who come here on visas and spit in the face of the country that welcomes in them. I like him because he's serious about cutting waste and challenges unaccountable corrupt organizations. I like that he's serious about border security, unlike the Democrats. I like he doesn't try to "both sides" the current Israel-Palestine war. He can actually recognize evil, which is rare in the US, and in the world, today.

He correctly recognizes that the main maladies facing the nation are lawlessness, social and moral confusion, and Islam.

Henry Ford was an entrepreneur - not something I would necessarily associate with manliness. — Tzeentch

I'm no fan of Ford. Nor am I overly familiar with his career. Yet he surely took financial risk and effectively led men below him. He also compensated his workers well, but that to me seems a mix of altruism and self-interest, perhaps more of the latter as he desired his employees to be able to buy his vehicles.

If effectively & successfully leading men below you isn't "masculine" then I'm not totally sure what we're counting as masculine.

-

I associate dark femininity more with Lady MacBeth - relentless manipulation of MacBeth & challenging his manhood, unbridled ambition, and complete lack of morality.

Honest cooperation tends to only occur among the latter, though. — javra

Among women? Never heard that one. I was under the impression that honest cooperation is entirely feasible among both sexes.

We can change all the bathrooms to gender neutral. We can make locker rooms gender neutral too. We can get rid of all gendered spaces (biologically-based). We can let people change their documents so that names and sex have zero relation to reality. After all, reality is clearly decided by the individual, not nature or anything external to that individual. :roll:

I love my trans brothers and sisters, but certain challenges arise.

I would have no problem telling TG girls (who have had the prior physical benefit of testosterone) they weren't allowed to participate in girls sports, because this is unfair to biological girls. — Relativist

How do you feel about them in women's locker rooms? Or restrooms? Maybe it would matter how long they've been transitioning and what their results are? There's no easy answers. It's not Trump's fault. It's the difficulties inherent in trans life. Some people will transition for years and still not be passable.

I'm reading:

Antiquities of the Jews - Josephus
Book of Jubilees - Jewish Annotated Apocrypha

Antiquities of the Jews is a must read for anyone interested in this subject. You simply won't find this depth and this coverage of history elsewhere; relating to the Jews, that is. I'm coming to the end of it, but afterwards I will absolutely be going on to The Jewish War. This book contains one of the earliest Jesus references as well.

Yeah, perhaps mate. But I would ask the Rota Inquisition court to act in a less malicious manner than Jews do in Palestine. — javi2541997

In Palestine? What is Palestine to you? So you support the war but want it less vicious?

Bedtime, Carlitos. It is important to sleep early so you will not miss the catechesis exam tomorrow. :wink: — javi2541997

Javi, I would never be able to fall asleep knowing that there are toxic elements among us. Perhaps we need an Inquisition into the matter? :chin:

My point was not backing Gregory but protesting that there are folks who are also toxic like a rotten swamp. — javi2541997

Oh no, and who are those toxic individuals so we can do something about them?

Trump's actions haven't solved those problems, it ignores them. For example, where SHOULD a transgender person go to the bathroom? — Relativist

This problem is intractable. You'd honestly want Trump to legislate on this? It's too thorny. Let the passable transwomen go into the women's restroom and the ones that don't pass into the men's, but of course it's never so easy because passing is subjective and subject to change.

Re: the military- drill them with their biological sex. Trump has denied them the right to serve at all. — Relativist

A judged blocked it. In any case, I would not want e.g. Blaire White or Nikita Dragon training with the men. Estrogen also causes one to lose muscle. Even if it didn't the thought of men showering and changing with transgender women is insane.

Not sure what you are referring to. My view is that they shouldn't be discriminated against. This doesn't mean a trans-woman should be treated identically to a biological woman. — Relativist

You aren't familiar with the view that one's gender identity should be respected? "Trans women are women" is a common slogan. If you're carving out another category for them you're not as progressive as you might think.

The prohibition against eating from the tree of knowledge is indeed puzzling. I think though, that we can zoom out, and say that the eden story presents us with a conception of reality where reality itself is wonderful and for mankind to enjoy and to flourish, yet there are certain rules that one must follow for it to endure.

Song of Solomon uses much edenic imagery; so perhaps through love we re-enter Eden in a way.

But does God command them because they yield good results or do they only yield good results because God comannded them? Or, perhaps, are they a set of criteria for assessing what a good life is? — Ludwig V

I think the commandments are good in-themselves for Israel to follow and they generally bring about good results. Mosaic law is particular to Israel. Yet God also gives 7 laws to Noah intended for all of humanity way before Moses.

Yet before any of this Cain commits murder. Both Cain and God know that it is wrong. This would seem to imply a universal pre-existent moral order. Here we hear of the land being "defiled" through Cain's deed and how Abel's blood "cries out" to God from the ground. There's a lot to unpack here. And rules go back all the way to Eden.

The Mosaic commandments essentially give Israel their identity.

The only legitimate issue I see is sports participation — Relativist

Did you forget about locker rooms? Among others.

Then you have bathrooms. And prisons. And if we're talking military service, which group do transgender recruits go with? The men or the women? Or do they get their own personal drill instructors? I know some wonderful transgender people, but the idea that all gender identities simply must be respected on the legal level will usher in chaos.

Less that 4% of violent crimes are committed by undocumented immigrants. This is another case of Trump leveraging bias for political gain.

Still too much. That figure should be at 0.

Americans are losing their ability to come together. — ssu

The reason for this is that the overton window has been blown open, especially on cultural issues. So sometimes you can't "come together" and you just need to fight off nasty ideas. I know as a democracy we pride ourselves on tolerance but that tolerance must have a limit. We cannot tolerate the rot that is occuring in our institutions of higher learning. We cannot tolerate the endless streams of illegal immigrants and gang members and sex traffickers making their way into the US. And we certainly cannot tolerate the idea that anyone can just be any gender/sex they feel without it leading to mass chaos. This is what brought Trump to power.

2 of the 3 attacked charging stations. That could lead to people being stranded when their charge dies. It hurts everyone and wastes electricity and time. I'm glad the DOJ is putting its foot down. Teslas are also amazing vehicles, imho peak american ingenuity.

As a Tesla driver, I'm satisfied that Trump is taking appropriate action against these psychos. Their crimes are so senseless. And when someone targets Teslas or Tesla infrastructure it's obviously political. Throw the book at them.

I am a little worried about the trans folk as they are bound for men's prison. Now that's something that's concerning. Not that they belong in a women's prison, but still.

I also love my Tesla and the thought of it getting vandalized because of Elon is enraging.

Too many criminals getting away with their crimes in this world for me to consider it the nature of reality. But perhaps you've addressed "reality" as something which goes beyond the physical and the lives lived in it ... — javra

Just the physical.

Bad behavior ruins relationships. Impulsive amoral men make bad friends and cannot be trusted around partners. You can behave like a selfish asshole but it's probably gonna have a cost so you better get really, really good at hiding it. If you're gonna skew the scales you better be able to trick everyone.

It can work for a time, but probably not forever. People talk.

But then isn't this a scarecrow to the commonplace decency that all adults need to give something of their own well-being for the benefit of the community they pertain to? — javra

I'm not sure what you mean by scarecrow, but yes, I agree that community is important and that there's some collective responsibility towards it. A strong community serves you and your family.

It here sounds like you're referring to something like karma, rather than a deity's judgments. — javra

Or maybe we could just call it the nature of reality.

That's what taxes are all about, right? One's giving of one's own profits for the common good, this at least within genuine democracies. Here, I tend to agree with Mr. Franklin when he said: — javra

I wasn't thinking of taxes. I had in mind the idea that the "moral" thing to do is to maximize the pleasure/utility of the masses and to give no special regard for e.g. one's own family. It is to demand the impossible - complete impartiality towards the entire world. To regard even one's own son or daughter as simply another moral unit no different from a stranger.

Atleast taxes can benefit the taxpayer.

I've noticed that the OT frequently mentions the rewards that one who keeps God's commandments can expect (and the punishments that are frequently dished out). It's old-fashined stick and carrot persuasion. — Ludwig V

Following the commandments generally does yield good results. Those who stray generally pay a price and bad deeds can carry a nasty ripple effect. It seems to me that modern moral philosophy (at least as I was taught it) has largely lost this connection. Instead, modern morality is often associated with sacrifice or inconvenience for the agent, like sacrificing one's own happiness for the multitude. Or following stringent rules because they are rational.

I'm interested in this business about total obedience and total trust. Both Abraham and Job raise it. — Ludwig V

So it's worth noting that while in the Isaac binding story Abraham exhibits this stringent faith, in the Sodom & Gomorrah story he does bargain with God. He bargains God down to 10 righteous men which are not able to be found in Sodom & Gomorrah so the cities burn.

Job is excellent in his book. He does question God. He laments the day of his birth. Yet he never curses or renounces God. He tows the line. So Job does question God yet his righteousness maintains. His reward at the end, I think, seems like it's almost tacked on and it's covered very briefly. I never read Job as expecting a reward. Personally, the notion of being adequately compensated/"rewarded" after one's family dies seems absurd to me so I always took it as perhaps some reward in the next life.

Job is timeless. Righteous men suffer for seemingly no reason all the time. Job provides a model, and that model -- that example -- makes room for questioning and lamenting.

In fact, we don't – cannot – know that anything "comes after this life". — 180 Proof

Could be something, could be nothing.

thus, Hillel the Elder's response to the request to say the whole meaning of the Torah while standing on one foot:
What is hateful (harmful) to you, do not do to anyone.
Notice the Rabbi did not say "have faith"... — 180 Proof

An excellent answer to an obnoxious gentile; they only need to behave themselves and avoid idolatry. I'm sure after making this remark everyone cheered and then Hillel returned to Torah study or forming halakha.

Now explain Hegel to me standing on one foot.

:up:

It's what you do, not what you feel or think, that counts, isn't it? — Banno

How we understand the doing -- the action -- is tied to the thoughts and feelings of the doer.

Men can be seen as little Gods in a sense.

Sure. I certainly acknowledge that from a human perspective what happened to Job is terrifying and troublesome. Yet our perspective is not the full picture and it lacks finality. We do not know what comes after this life.