Technically, ideas (information) in the mind are embodied, even though they can be transferred into the energetic form for artificial transmission between bodies — Gnomon

Information and energy are always embodied in matter. Even in transit from one mind to another they transmit over matter. I see it as a material universe - even a vacuum is not empty.

I've mentioned to you previously that I've been grappling with information, energy and matter - thinking one might be a quality of the other, but not quite being able to fit it together satisfactorily in terms of qualities. I'm satisfied now that the correct term is relationship - the relationship of information and energy is matter. This fits! I think this is the logical fundamental base - the metaphysics of matter. Its quite a big deal for my analytical reductionist understanding! It is consistent with interrelational evolution, as everything must be.

So, I sometimes refer to the Enformer as "Spinoza's God", which is usually taken to be the physical universe (Nature) itself. — Gnomon

I prefer this understanding myself. :smile:

I believe you are correct..in philosophy. Philosophy is not bound by the regidity of "science" - so, yes I believe you could make a convincing argument in your favor. — Don Wade

If you happen to think of something let me know. I'm always interested in alternative views.

You have misunderstood the meaning of the word "emergence" in this context. — T Clark

Please enlighten me?

Semantics. The emergent property of concrete is structural rigidity, which is not present in any of its component materials. But in their relationship emerges a structurally rigid material.

The relationship here is sand and cement. The result is concrete - is concrete not an emergent property that neither sand or cement posses on their own ?

Would you disagree with relationship = emergence? Initially I did, but I couldn't find a logical flaw, perhaps you can?

Yes. It's the mind of the artist that imagines the future interrelations that are currently only potential. — Gnomon

This would be G*D?

I'm seeing it more along the lines of the entire universe is constantly emerging due to the evolving relationship of information and energy.

"In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence occurs when an entity is observed to have properties its parts do not have on their own, properties or behaviors which emerge only when the parts interact in a wider whole." - Wikipedia

The normal understanding relates to complex systems, but as per previous posts a relationship is an emergent property, unless you can prove otherwise?

But what actualizes that potential is the mind or soul of the artist, who enforms the raw materials. — Gnomon

The relationship actualizes the potential. @Kaiser Basileus nailed it!

your equation of Enformation with Matter is essentially what Einstein was saying in (E = MC^2) : raw energy + the enforming power of light vibrations = produces the emergent property of matter called "Mass" — Gnomon

Yes Einstein equated energy and mass. Whereas information describes volume and pattern ( form ). So the two together describe matter.

Enformation cannot exist without being embedded in matter, in my understanding.

If one really searches, they can discover all kinds of emergent properties in many fields of study. — Don Wade

If a relationship is the minimum requirement for emergence, then the entire universe is constantly emerging.

Generally, Emergent Properties are characteristic of a system-as-a-whole, rather than of individual components of the system. — Gnomon

What is the minimum number of parts required to constitute a system? I think two!

enformation = matter. As per above post. What do you think?

Emergence is identical to relationship. — Kaiser Basileus

It's the vernacular definition, the relationship between parts — Kaiser Basileus

I think you are correct. Its not the typical understanding of emergence, but if a relationship is a connection between parts, a cooperation, repulsion, or interaction, then the relationship is an emergent property that neither of the parts can possess on their own, so relationship = emergence. I think this would be the most fundamental level of emergence.

If I follow the logic, it leads me to conclude that the relationship of information and energy is matter, where matter is an emergent property! I think this is correct.

A good paper on emergence can be found here. There is nothing in it that contradicts this understanding.

In my opinion it is also a very interesting and valid art form. It shows how emergence occurs. :up:

If it was me, I would use the formula as the title for the work, and in the blurb I would explain how consciousness emerges in a similar manner, as a relationship of interacting parts, consistent with complexity theory.

Just something that came to my mind - you obviously have your own plans for it. :smile:

Here is one of my examples of weak emergence. What is the "relationship"? — jgill

Is this the result of one of your mathematical formulas ?

" I have written many math programs over the years in connection with my interest in infinite compositions of complex functions in the complex plane. In another forum (now deceased) there was minor controversy over whether imagery produced from this mathematics - and virtually unpredictable - was a kind of art, like fractals." - jgill

Your welcome. :smile:

In it's place is left (fill in the blank). — synthesis

Every moment of life is an experience with its corresponding feeling.

The interesting thing about this is that it is an internal feeling - one persons pleasure is another persons pain. What makes one person happy, is not guaranteed to do the same for another.

In Yogic logic happiness is not dependent upon external causes, but can be elicited at will, with some practice.

What brings happiness? How is happiness experienced/created? — Cate

The pursuit of happiness that defines much of Western culture doesn't really seem to be thought out very well. — synthesis

Happiness results from an experience that is pleasurable. It is the emotional pleasure that the experience provides that makes us happy. Conversely sadness results from displeasurable ( painful ) experience. Every moment of life is an experience, so every moment of life is either pleasurable or displeasurable or something in between. We are a pain averse, pleasure seeking creature. The pain -pleasure spectrum that we land upon as a function of experience is what provides impetus to life, in my opinion.

​
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do as well as to determine what we shall do. "

Jeremy Bentham 1789.

Thanks I'll check it out. The pop-up is working properly for me now.

we see the world, not as it is, but as we are — Gnomon

We are - an evolving process of self organization, so this is spot on - we see the world in terms of our self organization, Talmud- circa 200CE :chin:

Another similar observation : “If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?” — Hillel

Unlike an internet link, this page link doesn't change the place marker to a finger pointer. You just have to put the place marker over the text and click. — Gnomon

Yes thanks that worked. Still the text at the bottom of the pop up couldn't be read. The content seems spot on however. :up:

Your blog is very interesting - a great variety of useful information. I'm sure many people like myself will appreciate it. You just never know with these blogs. I did a definition of art a while back which nobody liked, probably because I nailed it, but Google AI thinks its sexy - If you google ungrounded variable mental construct you'll see what I mean.

BTW your pop-up is not working for me - Chrome browser on windows.

A possible corollary to the Enformationism Thesis is that "everything happens for a reason". But the Reason for Being may not have anything to do with You as a singular sentient being. The rational basis of reality, and the logic of evolution, may instead serve the long-range intention of the anonymous First Cause - Creator - Programmer - Enformer.

Unfortunately nobody knows what that ultimate goal might be. Except that it seems to have something to do with Complexity & Consciousness. Yet, the element of Randomness, implies that some freedom from determinism is essential to this exercise in Enformation.

So, your personal role in the process of computing that Final Answer may be as an independent-minded improvisational role-player in the on-going story of Evolution toward a Universal Mind in space-time, as envisioned by Teilhard deChardin.

But, your guess is as good as mine. So I play my role, and construct my character, for my own personal reasons. And you are somewhat free to do likewise. — Gnomon

This is more like it, in my opinion ( particularly the stuff highlighted in bold ). I am much more inclined to read something like this as you are unifying and integrating your knowledge and drawing some conclusion from it. The conclusion can never be complete, as consciousness is infinite, but it pushes the boundary of consciousness to the edge of knowledge and from there one can imagine what human consciousness might look like in a future time.

In art the edge of knowledge is the sweet spot. In stepping beyond it one becomes truly creative. Everything up until the edge is just a repetition of something somebody else has done. This seems less well understood in philosophy.

So, homo sapiens seems to be merely one step in the stairway to heaven, not the "chosen people" with a reservation in the Eternal Bliss suite. :cool: — Gnomon

I think, to be creative, whether in art or philosophy - such that one is producing truly original work is a form of heaven in itself. Don't you think?

1. The Enformationism hypothesis begins with the ancient, but still controversial, theory that the fundamental “substance” of reality is not sensible energy or tangible matter, but abstract spirit, soul, or mind. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/substance/ — Gnomon

What is wrong with - Enformationism posits that the fundamental substances of reality is not energy or matter but mind.

2. Yet it concludes that those mysterious, metaphysical, mental building blocks of reality are nothing stranger than the ordinary, mundane objects of thought that we take for granted in our everyday thinking. https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195396577/obo-9780195396577-0076.xml — Gnomon

:up:

3. Axiom : Consciousness is real and primal. Hence, Mental concepts are categorically and hierarchically prior to material things. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/ — Gnomon

:up:

Abiogenisis theory from a dozen or so perspectives / disciplines agrees that self organisation led to life. Self organization = Consciousness! Every moment of consciousness is a moment of self organization.

4. Premise 1 : At the quantum level of reality matter is essentially reduced to mathematical information.
5. Premise 2 : The essence of mind and thought is Information, which consists of patterns and relationships between things.
6. Conclusion : Matter and Energy are condensed forms of abstract, ethereal information.
7. Therefore, the 19th century, reductive, physical, scientific Paradigm of Materialism should be updated to include the knowledge emerging from 21st century, holistic, metaphysical Information Sciences. — Gnomon

:up: Yep, yep, yep. And there are plenty of references - Santiago school of cognition.

But most materialist philosophers find it difficult to imagine that something as ethereal as Mind Stuff could be the ultimate reality. :worry: — Gnomon

These tend to be older guys like ourselves. There is no understanding from this perspective. Not even a hint of an understanding. Not only is there no theory, but there is not even the vaguest conception of how one might arise. A thought dose not arise in the brain, but from all the system layers a brain depends upon - all the layers of the system have to be integrated for the brain to function and for the next thought to arise. As we look back along the causal chain we end up outside the complex biological system in a universal pocket of order with enformation creating molecules. That's what causes the next thought to arise.

From monism an explanation is possible. It may not be the ultimate explanation, but its a step in the right direction, I feel - in more ways then one! Panpschism is gaining momentum, with people like Tononi, Koch, Hoffman, etc, but it will be up to the millennial generation to really cement it into place. You and I will just beat our heads against a brick wall, but who knows we may displace a brick or two along the way. :grin:

I do tend to think holistically, rather than reductively & sequentially — Gnomon

This tends to be the trend these days, so it is I who is old fashioned and reductionist. I was really just thinking about the time most people ( including myself ) put into reading these things. My web stats show an average retention of 3 minutes. So I tend to think short and to the point is the way to go, but I could be wrong - its not as if I know the answer, I was just stating my personal preference. I find your style is easy to read and understand, so that is half the battle won. :up:

the "superposition" of "virtual" particles of matter. — Gnomon

That's how I imagine a thought works: the object of thought is the nucleus, whilst ones knowledge is in superposition of it. Of course one's knowledge can only assume a partial superposition. :sad:

The idea that energy is the fundamental element is deficient, as energy has to have form, so there is something informing it. Of course the logical difficulty here is that energy and information ( enformation ) are inseparable, so that's why I wonder if one is a quality of the other? Or is matter a quality of the two together? - I feel there is something in this, but I just cant quite get at it - yet!

And each upward step in complexity is the result of inherent Self-Organization, built-in to the creative energy of EnFormAction. :smile: — Gnomon

Yes, the observation is that it is a self organizing universe where each layer of self organization gives rise to an emergent property. This is well illustrated in cells where different patterns of amino acids combined create cellular proteins of various different function. This would be the systems / embodied perspective, but complexity theory really brings it home.

This seems good in the context of your own blog, and a continuation of your own narrative. If you don't mind, I would suggest you spend less time apologizing for lack of formal qualification, and that you provide a different perspective / interpretation. These are irrelevant considerations given you provide citations, references, and an argument.

What I found interesting was the background information - Plato, enlightenment, Shannon, etc. For the article, I would briefly narrate the history, and then jump straight in to the hyper relevant and factual stuff. "Information → Energy → Matter". How everything is information, and how information connects everything. How the universe is an information processing system. How information creates the patterns that entangle energy and matter. How human consciousness is the most evolved or complex example of this.

This is just my own bias however. I tend to prefer things in list or point form, logically reduced and to the point - this is just me, there is nothing wrong with how you have expressed yourself. :smile:

Could you provide a link please?

This is a very interesting question. From a constructivist point of view, we accumulate knowledge piece by piece and construct it to a self consistent database of knowledge. A thought is a relation of this knowledge database to the object being thought about. When the object fits (can be understood) into the knowledge database, then nothing new has occurred, thinking continues as normal, so no emergence.

But when the object of thought dose not fit into the database, then the database has to be revised in order to to accommodate the object. This situation, depending upon severity, is known in constructivist psychology as an adjustment disorder, traditionally know as a personality crisis, or a paradigm shift, enlightenment, or perhaps madness, depending upon how well it is eventually integrated and resolved.

In this case the thought may well result in an emergent property - the emergent property being the newly constructed database of knowledge - and hence a new way of thinking.

'Deep' is relative. Here it tends to mean: anything deeper than Beyoncé. This means even Ariana Grande may qualify. Nick Cave passes the bar any day. — Olivier5

Ha, Ha. :smile: Its interesting how people who gravitate toward deeper conversation, also prefer deeper music. Good thread, Its introduced me to some deep artists that I wasn't aware of.

It will be the next post on my blog, but I may adapt it for an article on this forum. — Gnomon

Ill look forward to it. :up:

"complexity science invites a systemic and holistic paradigm . . . . and a bottom-up approach to the understanding of reality". — Gnomon

"Real World complexity (from inanimate self-organizing structure formation to emergent phenomena like life and consciousness) . . . " (my emphasis) :smile: — Gnomon

This is roughly my understanding also. Information is fundamental, so the universe is an information processing system. It is self organizing - best described as an evolving complex adaptive system, where evolution is achieved interrelationally, where the form that survives is the fittest form.

It is bottom up, as atoms form molecules, and molecules form matter, and so on. This suggests self organization down to plank length, steadily increasing in size to the macro scale, and then, logic would suggest, this pattern must continue to infinite size beyond our own universe. In Goldilocks pockets of order ( where water is present ), the order will cause better ordered patterns of atoms until life is caused - its just a matter of time, and the universe has all the time it needs. :smile: Once life is caused: it is a complex adaptive system that must evolve interellationally ( with the information surrounding it ), where natural selection deems what is the fittest form, so better ordered states of life are inevitable. There is no end to this, so consciousness is potentially infinite.

I think this is a state of the art, or as you say a cutting edge understanding. It certainly makes the most sense to me. Within these concepts a BIG picture understanding seems possible, but I am a very cautious person so have to mull over this some more, and currently am otherwise occupied. :sad:

When you get to the cutting edge of understanding, you then have the opportunity to step beyond it. And I have a question for you that requires stepping beyond the cutting edge, I think: Everything has a quality ( qualia ). Is information the quality ( qualia ) of energy, or is energy the quality of information? or are they two sides of the one coin whose quality is matter?

I like the new website. :up:

Unfortunately, it refers to cutting-edge scientific concepts that most posters may not be familiar with — Gnomon

It is difficult to condense complicated ideas into simple broadly understood concepts, but I think its worth the effort as the simpler explanations have the broadest uptake. I think you do this quite well.

I emphasize the term Information in order to show that Mind consists of essentially the same kind of stuff as Matter." — Gnomon

:up: - entirely the same kind of stuff, just much more complex.

"The point I’m trying to make here is that energy, matter, space, and time are all re-formulations of the same essential substance, Information. — Gnomon

I agree, the way I like to put it is that information gives form to things.

you can think of the entire world, the entire universe, as essentially a medium and a mechanism for the propagation of consciousness. Which reaches its most precise formulation in the concept of information theory, the transmission of a message. But includes and encompasses all modalities of knowledge (transmissible thought). — Pantagruel

:up: Yes, information theory provides an insight into information being the fundamental element, and the universe thus being an information processing system.

complex adaptive systems ". And expanded Information Theory is at the core of Complexity & Adaptation (self-organization). — Gnomon

Yes, a complex adaptive system is what consciousness is. :smile:

What do you think? Is it too long for an article? :worry: — Gnomon

I think that would be too long. I was thinking perhaps a thousand words or less. It would not need to be definitive, perhaps an introductory overview? That everything is information, and that information links everything is not well understood here, so it might be of value to have something to refer to when the situation arises.. You could also frame it as enformation, as that is its logical base. Perhaps suggest it as an article, and see what the response is.

I'm just beginning to read a long, complex book written by a professional Complexity theorist, who started as a Physicist. — Gnomon

I wont allow myself to read other peoples interpretation, until my own is fully formed. Once I fully understand it then I will compare my understanding to theirs. I still have some way to go before I would say I fully understand it - such that it is a normal part of my thinking.

I think you should do an article on "enformation" for the TPF. Just something short and basic, that facilitates a quick grasp of the idea.

Nick Cave and the bad seeds.
I don't know about deep, but its kinda philosophical.

Opium Tea

Here I sleep the morning through
Until the call to prayer awakes me
And there is nothing at all to do but rise
And follow the day wherever it takes me
I stand at the window and look at the sea
Then I make me a pot of opium tea

Down at the port I watch the boats come in
Watching boats come in can do something to you
And the kids gather round with outstretched hand
And I toss them a diram or two
And I wonder if my children are thinking of me
For I am what I am and what will be will be
I wonder if my kids are thinking of me
And I smile and I sip my opium tea

At night the sea lashes the rust red ramparts
And the shapes of hooded men move past me
And the mad moaning wind, it laughs and it laughs
At the strange lot that fate has cast me
And the cats on the rampart sing merrily
That I am what I am and what will be will be
The cats on the rampart sing merrily
And I sit and I drink my opium tea

I'm a prisoner here, I can never go home
There is nothing here to win or to lose
There are no choices needing to be made at all
Not even the choice of having to choose
I am a prisoner, yes, but I am also free
'Cause I am what I am and what will be will be
I'm a prisoner here, yes, but I'm also free
And I smile and I sip my opium tea

Is there any reason not to suppose that consciousness is just a manifestation of energy occurring under specific conditions? — Pantagruel

I think you are missing information from your fundamentals. Information gives energy and matter form. Once something has form, it becomes integrated information :nerd: so consciousness. Human consciousness, in the moment, is a very complicated instance of integrated information. It has enormous complexity, but it is still an instance of integrated information, enabled by energy, and embedded in matter.

and that the seemingly impossible connections between particles communicated at over 10,000 times the speed of light, is a case in point, by seemingly breaking several Laws and Principles. Science cannot now deny the reality of these events and it has simply accepted that this is now a reality without explanation — Gary Enfield

QM, as with the rest of physics, respects the light speed limit. It follows from time dilation, which is fact rather then theory. What we are seeing here is a new phenomenon rather then communication.

Bell himself proposed Superdeterminism as an explanation:
"There is a way to escape the inference of superluminal speeds and spooky action at a distance. But it involves absolute determinism in the universe, the complete absence of free will. Suppose the world is super-deterministic, with not just inanimate nature running on behind-the-scenes clockwork, but with our behavior, including our belief that we are free to choose to do one experiment rather than another, absolutely predetermined, including the 'decision' by the experimenter to carry out one set of measurements rather than another, the difficulty disappears. There is no need for a faster-than-light signal to tell particle A what measurement has been carried out on particle B, because the universe, including particle A, already 'knows' what that measurement, and its outcome, will be."

Who, other then theoretical physicists, would be ready to accept superdeterminism? :sad:

LaPlace's style of physical determinism was torpedoed by the uncertainty principle. That’s the short version. — Wayfarer

I think this is overreach. I remain very impressed with a statement by a Caltech professor ( I cannot remember his name) who stated that what we are seeing at the quantum level is not behavior associated with materials - suggesting a new category is in order. Quanta, when combined together, becomes a molecule, and the rules of QM no longer apply, the rules of CM do. It would seem materials emerge from the synergetic self organization of quanta - this would be how complexity theory could account for what we are seeing. Of course, as you say, all of this is yet to be fully understood.

Manjit Kumar’s Quantum was a very enjoyable book. I wonder what those Copenhagen guys would have put together if they had systems and complexity theory at their disposal. I imagine something very similar to Neil Theise's self organizing universe.

No offence intended. :smile:

Your theory preserves the status quo. I'm not interested in that. I think it is destructive and unsustainable. You affirm the pharaoh / slave hierarchy mentality, whereas I am trying to promote a scribe / farmer mentality.

I didn't know that . — Gary Enfield

It comes from the horses mouth, and he is also promising a mathematical theory of emotion! So that should be interesting.

The road that you are heading down was first explored by Verela and Maturana in the seventies. They are part of the Santiago school of cognition. They form the embodied or holistic movement, which uses a systems theory logic. A current advocate is Fritjof Capra, his pearl of wisdom is ; "cognition is a reaction to a disturbance in a state". Their term for what is happening is autopoisis. A recent variation of what they started would be Neil Theise, and his self organizing universe, which uses complexity theory logic. I came across all this by noticing that human consciousness is entirely a form of self organization, where every moment of consciousness is a moment of self organization.


This whole thing is best understood from a complexity theory perspective, where disparate elements when combined can form a synergy that gives rise to emergent function or properties not present in any of the elements individually. This is best illustrated when amino acids of different shape, size , and charge are combined to form proteins that have emergent function.


This pattern of combination giving rise to synergetic emergence is illustrated in atoms when combined forming molecules , in molecules when combined forming amino acids, in amino acids forming cellular proteins, in cellular proteins forming cells, in cells combined forming organs, in organs combined forming bodies, in bodies combined forming communities. At each of these levels there exists a system of self organization. Human consciousness results from and is embedded in all of this, as a system of self organization. Specifically human consciousness relates to extracellular self organization.


All of this is caused by a goldilocks pocket of order in the universe. So the cause of consciousness extends beyond the complex biological organism to a pocket of order outside the system. The pocket of order forms a field that percolates and can self organize, and form molecules, and this may start the whole process ( this is my own speculation ).
A "goldilocks" rocky planet with water, and a sun in the just the right position is helpful, but its the order that causes more ordered states, in my opinion. A determinism with a slight element of randomness seems to be at play, and interrelational evolution is taking place, where molecules are more stable then atoms, and so on.

This video is an excellent overview of complexity theory.

Thanks for your input, the rich background knowledge, and particularly the "pocket of order".
I'll continue to use it If you don't mind. Its been good to exchange notes, and speak about the big picture on a deeper level then I normally am able to. As you say, there is mostly agreement between us. :up: :smile: