What specific quotation or reference is given by anyone (other than a flagrantly errant poster) that p -> Kp? — TonesInDeepFreeze

And I cannot let it be said — Olivier5

that it is antirealist to point out that propositions have to be proposed... — Olivier5

In any case, — Olivier5

↪InPitzotl
? — Olivier5

On the contrary, it would be unrealistic — Olivier5

Why is
q -> Kq
being stated? — TonesInDeepFreeze

No one believes that as a generalization for all q. — TonesInDeepFreeze

Notice that in your example: q = ~p , you used q (~p is true) and not p (p is false). — TheMadFool

p→Kp — TheMadFool

Yes, but for Olivier5's argument to work ¬p should be false. — TheMadFool

If q = ¬p, q is true. — TheMadFool

To both of you
Incorrect! — TheMadFool

As I read the article in Stanford, Fitche's Paradox is using the word "truth" in the sense of a statement about the real world — EricH

Put differently, Fitch is talking about apples and your program is doing math. So not even apples & oranges. — EricH

But that aside, suppose your program were to write each line out to a file and then delete that file before generating the next line? Would you still consider your program to be generating propositions? — EricH

As formulated, the statement is a bit unclear because "lexical" means "relating to words or the vocabulary of a language as distinguished from its grammar and construction". — Olivier5

Assuming you mean something like "comes in alphabetic order before", then the statement could be interpreted as a true proposition. — Olivier5

So who is doing the proposing then? — Olivier5

We've been through this — Olivier5

A proposition needs to be proposed as a true representation. Otherwise it is at best a sentence. You do all the proposing, your computer none. Your computer is merely your sockpuppet. — Olivier5

That you interpret as such. I don't. — Olivier5

Because a proposition is a statement that is proposed as a fair or accurate representation of some state of affairs. — Olivier5

At best, your computer is writing a sentence, at worse it is spaying black dots on a screen, which you interpret as a proposition. — Olivier5

it makes no sense to say that a proposition no one knows about is true. — Olivier5

Then how can it make a proposition? — Olivier5

Your computer knows it... — Olivier5

If there was a proposition that was not known, what would make it a proposition? — Mww

¬p→K¬p — Olivier5

This is your take. Mine is that they have. — Olivier5

Well then, that thing is the proposer. — Olivier5

That's only because you limit it to very simple arbitrary statements — Olivier5

So computers can sort letters alphabetically. — Olivier5

Big deal. — Olivier5

Try and have your Inspiron 3847 answer questions about real states of affairs, like elephants and castles for a change. — Olivier5

Not sure where that leads you. — Olivier5

Monkeys hitting randomly at a typewriter could produce English sentences too. — Olivier5

But we mean it, when we do so. — Olivier5

A mere recording or mechanical production of a sentence cannot invest meaning in that sentence. — Olivier5

And a sentence without meaning or intention is not a proposition. — Olivier5

It's not. It's the core of my argument that by coding in this phrase "is lexically prior to", you created a pattern your computer would follow — Olivier5

to compose sentences that have nothing new in them, — Olivier5

These sentences are mere recordings, — Olivier5

the sentences produced are not actually understood by the machine, and therefore it is hard to say they are proposed by the machine. — Olivier5

Rather they are produced mechanically. — Olivier5

If my sister's doll was not saying "j'ai faim" but instead "This is a random noise" and would then make a random noise (as she was found to do), it would be exactly like your computer. — Olivier5

The argument of the recording doesn't hold either, because you did record the phrase "is lexically prior to" in your code, and it's the only meaningful part of the output sentences, just like for the doll... — Olivier5

So when my little sister's doll used to say "Maman" and "J'ai faim", it was not just playing a recording? — Olivier5

It was actually stating the proposition: "I am hungry"? — Olivier5

Are concepts and ideas and models any more harmlessly, less misleadingly identified as the referent of "water" than are phrases like "cool flowing substance"? — bongo fury

What the machine does — Olivier5

That's a stretch. Your machine-generated "sentences" would strike an odd chord in a natural conversation between people. — Olivier5

"awww, what a cute little grammatically correct true English sentence!" — InPitzotl

The proposition needs to exist first. — Olivier5

within human experience, it makes no sense to say that a proposition no one knows about is true. — Olivier5

I was kinda hoping you'd realise you couldn't answer the question. In other words, you'd realise that you can't get a computer to understand things in the way we can. — Daemon

TheMadFool wrote that, I was quoting him. I'm arguing against him. — Daemon

I mean, come back to us when there's a camera that can see — Daemon

matching linguistic symbols (words, spoken or written) to their respective referents — TheMadFool

You did take what was a bunch of dots on paper — Olivier5

and you did make a proposition out of it by assigning some meaning to it. — Olivier5

You think your machine proposed this proposition? — Olivier5

Proposition 6 was generated more or less around 10:03:44pm local time on this day October 1, 2021. But nobody proposed it at 10:03:44pm. In fact, nobody read it until it least 10:04:44pm. — InPitzotl

YOU, when you read the output, understands it a certain way, to mean a certain thing. — Olivier5

You then create the proposition — Olivier5

Likewise, a statement does not exist before it is stated by some author or another. A phrase does not exist before being phrased. — Olivier5

within human experience, it makes no sense to say that a proposition no one knows about is true. — Olivier5

But maybe I'm not getting the point (happens on a regular basis) — EricH

The seeming paradox is due to adopting a point of view that lays outside of the world of human experience, outside of time and space — Olivier5

from datetime import datetime
import random
import time

random.seed()
def make_string():
   return ''.join((chr(65+random.randint(0,25)) for n in range(8)))

def generate_samples():
    return sorted([make_string() for n in range(3)])

def generate_proposition():
    x, y, z = generate_samples()
    return f'"{y}" is lexically prior to "{z}" but successive to "{x}".'

def generate_list():
    return [generate_proposition() for n in range(10)]

the_list = generate_list()
print(f'The current time is {datetime.now()}.')
time.sleep(60) # Wait one minute prior to exposure to any minds
for i, n in enumerate(the_list, 1):
    print(f'{i}. {n}')

Within the boundaries of human experience, a proposition is some statement that someone proposes, at some point in time. — Olivier5

Within the boundaries of human experience, a proposition is some statement that someone proposes, at some point in time. — Olivier5

it makes no sense to say that a proposition no one knows about is true. — Olivier5

The proposition needs to exist first. — Olivier5

Or if you prefer, it could only exist in the mind of God. Or maybe some superpowerful alien... Not in a human mind. — Olivier5

Once it is proposed, then and only then can the question of its truth be asked, and thus be put into existence, and only then, can the question be answered (or not). — Olivier5

Can you tell me how I could get all that stuff about the store shelf and banana bread into my translation memory? — Daemon

A camera does not see. — Daemon