No, because the expected gain is $333,334, which is more than my 333,334X. — Michael
But we're just talking about a single game, so whether or not there is a cumulative expected gain for this strategy is irrelevant. — Michael
If it's more likely that the expected gain for my single game is > X than < X then it is rational to switch.
Or if I have no reason to believe that it's more likely that the other envelope contains the smaller amount then it is rational to switch, as I am effectively treating a gain (of X) as at least as likely as a loss (of 0.5X).
The other way to phrase the difference is that my solution uses the same value for the chosen envelope (10) and your solution uses different values for the chosen envelope (sometimes 10 and sometimes 20 (or 5)). — Michael
then I am effectively treating both cases as being equally likely, and if I am treating both cases as being equally likely then it is rational to switch. — Michael
There's also the possibility that £10 is the bottom of the distribution, in which case the expected value for switching is £20. — Michael
Assuming your goal merely is to maximise your expected value, you have not reason to favor switching over sticking.
— Pierre-Normand
Which, as I said before, is equivalent to treating it as equally likely that the other envelope contains the smaller amount as the larger amount, and so it is rational to switch.
If there's £10 in my envelope then the expected value for switching is £12.50, and the expected value for switching back is £10. — Michael
I have no way of knowing that my value is "average". Perhaps the 10^100 in my envelope is a puny value because the upper bound is Graham's number. — Michael
My argument is that given how arbitrarily large the numbers in the envelopes can be (using points rather than money), there isn't really a point at which one would consider it more likely that your envelope has the larger value. If my envelope is 10 then it's rational to switch. If it's 1,000 then it's rational too switch. If it's 10100 then it's rational to switch. — Michael
Sure, the practical limitations of real life play a role, but I wonder if such limitations go against the spirit of the problem. What if instead of money it's points, and the goal of the game is to earn the most points? There isn't really a limit, except as to what can be written on paper, but with such things as Knuth's up-arrow notation, unfathomably large numbers like Graham's number aren't a problem. — Michael
So my takeaway is that if it isn't rational to stick then it's rational to switch. — Michael
But this just seems to be saying that there's no reason to believe that it's more likely that the other envelope contains the smaller amount and no reason to believe that it's more likely that the other envelope contains the larger amount and so you're effectively treating each case as equally likely, in which case it would be rational to switch. — Michael
So what's the rational decision if you know that the prior distribution is isn't uniform and unbounded? There's £10 in your envelope. Should you stick or switch? — Michael
You seem to be saying that after picking an envelope I have to go from saying that there's a probability of 0.5 that I will pick the smaller envelope to saying that the probability is unknown that I have picked the smaller envelope. — Michael
But what action does your answer entail? Switching or sticking? If you say it doesn't matter, and so you're being indifferent, isn't that the same as treating it as equally likely that the other envelope contains the larger amount as the smaller amount? And if you're treating them as equally likely then isn't it rational to switch?
If you are using the principle of indifference then criticizing people for using the principle of indifference, that is hypocritical. Either accept that as a standard starting point or don't — Jeremiah
So you think you always have a 1.25 expected gain in every case? — Jeremiah
As far as I am concerned I already found the flaw. Take it or leave it, that is your choice. — Jeremiah
Hey, if you feel lucky then switch, if you think you are close to the cap don't, feel this one out, but you are not going to be able to quantify a positive gain based on the information we have. — Jeremiah
It is also rational to want ice-cream on a hot day. You still don't know anything about the distribution. You are speculating then trying to model your speculations. — Jeremiah
Statistics is a data science and uses repeated random events to make inference about an unknown distribution. We don't have repeated random events, we have one event. Seems like a clear divide to me. You can't learn much of anything about an unknown distribution with just one event. — Jeremiah
You don't know the distribution, you don't know the limits and you only get once chance to switch. — Jeremiah
You are no longer talking about just probability anymore, since you can now sample the distribution you are now engaged in statistics, which is outside the scope of the OP — Jeremiah
Actually only one case is true, while the other one does not exist. So they can't both be possible outcomes, not objectively. You are modeling your assumption of what you think is possible. However, just because you can think of something that doesn't mean it is objectively a possible outcome. — Jeremiah
The 1.25X come from considering expected gains over both cases, the larger and smaller. However when one case is true the other cannot be true, so it makes no sense to consider expected gains in this fashion. They should to be considered separately. — Jeremiah
Do you the the point or not? — Jeremiah
Never said any thing about both being actual at once. — Jeremiah
That is what I just did. The envelopes cannot be in both cases at once, therefore it makes no sense to hedge your expections that both cases are possible. — Jeremiah
And I am saying that doesn't really matter because it will always be amount A and amount B. — Jeremiah
See that was easy. — Jeremiah
I have two envelopes, one with amount A and one with amount B. I flip a fair coin to choose one. What is my chance of getting B? — Jeremiah
I think we are safe, I doubt anything will blow up. — Jeremiah
It absolutely can be ignored. — Jeremiah
The filling of the envelopes and the selecting of the envelopes are two separate events. — Jeremiah
Never said it was. — Jeremiah
If a loaded coin flips H 9 out 10 times, without that knowledge, an uninformative of 50/50 prior is completely justified. — Jeremiah
In this case, it's the fact that the Hotel has countably infinitely many rooms that enables the assumption of equiprobability to hold. — Pierre-Normand
I have a feeling though that Michael will still think that absent knowledge of the distribution, he can turn back to 50% as an assumption. — Srap Tasmaner
I recall they did. Then there was a very strong rumour that Snr. helped draft a statement about the meeting after the news of it broke, whilst on Air Force One. I think that is one of the subjects of the 'obstruction of justice' part of the investigation. — Wayfarer
I think I'm just reluctant to see the simple situation of choosing between two envelopes of different values in terms of the strange behavior of infinity. — Srap Tasmaner
I'm still confused. This makes it sound like the switching argument isn't fallacious -- it just makes an unwarranted assumption. So if every value of X were equally probable, then it would be true that you can expect a .25 gain from switching? I see how the math works, but if that's true, isn't it true whether you know the value of your envelope or not? And if that's true, isn't it also true for the other envelope as well? — Srap Tasmaner
Yes. But I think the OP is asking for a general solution for one run with no special assumptions about the context (such as whole dollar amounts or million dollar limits). — Andrew M