I do have a problem with saying "race x should do this or needs to stop doing this" for a number of reasons. Mainly, it is ridiculous to hold a race of people accountable, no matter the subject matter. — Judaka

How is this relevant? Counterpunch is not a synecdoche for white people. Even the few people I've tussled with on here (Brett, BitcoinCarlos, NOS4A2) do not collectively constitute a synecdoche for white people. Speaking of which:

I was biased against you due to previous posts, I thought I had read enough of this thread to know that you were being unreasonable. — Judaka

I'm extremely consistent on this point, as are the likes of the above, the most common theme being that murdered black people somehow have it coming, the other being that black people are intrinsically criminal while criminal white people are exceptions, I.e. racist propaganda. So I'm wondering what you see is different about this one. Feel free to PM me if you think there's a point to be made here but don't want to drag it out here. I do take notes.

As for the rest, fine. I, at face value, take your post at face value.

I may not have called you out if I read this properly, you are not being so unreasonable as I had thought. The way he talks about "white people" and "black people" bothers me a lot. Maybe I'll just sit out for now and make up my mind about this later. — Judaka

Talking about race isn't necessarily racist in the context of other racial prejudice. If you believe racism is negligible, i.e. there is very little evidence to suggest that it exists, well, you're wrong, but at least in your view race arguably shouldn't be a topic. That is not counterpunch's reasoning. His version of racism is to deny that white-on-black racism is real when hundreds of thousands of black people have been enslaved, lynched, segregated, murdered, assaulted and marginalised by it, while on the other hand espousing alt-right propaganda that whites are being oppressed, along with males, straights and cis-gendered persons. The evidence for the existence of white-on-black racism is overwhelming. The evidence for white oppression is non-existent. In addition, he has characterised black people as intrinsically criminal, while bemoaning political parties for not exclusively representing white people.

Racism is very real and very solidly evidenced. It is also unambiguously evil. You say you hadn't read his many offending posts. Frankly I don't buy it. You completely misrepresented my argument from the start, while apparently insisting on a maximal evidential basis for pretty uncontroversial conclusions, a lower bar you cannot possibly insist on in any meaningful discussion.

You're defending someone who claimed that George Floyd cynically said "I can't breathe" because it was a BLM slogan and then you ask me for absolute proof that yet another white cop murdering a defenceless, handcuffed black man is evidence of racism. Sure, whoops, right?

Do I think him a fascist? I wouldn't use that language. — Banno

I do, based on:

Nevertheless, if the election was a fraud, those people did the right thing. They occupied the seat of power - and that's exactly what people should do if the system is corrupted. Afterall, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution both begin "We, the people...." It belongs to them. It's shameful that a police officer shot someone dead for trying to enter a building that they own.... The people who occupied THIER seat of power to prevent a fraudulent election have nothing to be ashamed of. — counterpunch

Legitimising a violent coup against a democratic government because his lot can't wrap their heads around why Trump was a turn-off is still legitimising a violent coup against a democratic government.

Can you even prove the Floyd murder was racially motivated? — Judaka

Prove as in 100%? Nope.

You shouldn't call someone racist because they say things you don't like - when they're not racist. — Judaka

Agreed. That's why I only call racists racists.

A lot of right-wing speakers who aren't racist, fascist or alt-right disagree with the issues around systemic racism, George Floyd, political correctness and even on Trump. — Judaka

No. There is not a valid right-wing opinion on how Floyd died that differs from the facts. I reject a defense of belittling all victims of racism on post-truth grounds as equally racist. If you have problems with the term "racist", easy solution: don't be it. We're not discussing economic philosophy here: this is racist propaganda that proceeds by the right wing MO of insisting that what we saw was not what we saw, that while the facts establish X, there are alternative facts we can invent that show !X, it just depends on your point of view. Kidding yourself this is fine is one thing; kidding yourself that everyone else will accept it as fine is just straight up dumb.

Hmm, true, I misrepresented you there, my bad. Doesn't change my main* point though. — Judaka

If your main point is that people who support far-right violent insurrectionists, who engage in baseless racist propaganda, and who promote propaganda about how whites are being oppressed are beyond naming or criticism or the contempt of decent people, your main point is wrong. If your main point is that counterpunch didn't do these things, you are also wrong. Either way, you seem to be continuing as you began.

Was Clinton or Carter guilty of inciting violence, or some other species of malicious action, when they said the president was illegitimate or installed by Russia? — NOS4A2

Don't think there was a violent insurrection because if it, know any different, or are you suggesting that because Trump is being held responsible for an actual insurrection, other people should be charged with the same even in the absence of one? Because logically that's kind of screwed up.

He never invited any such thing, — NOS4A2

Irrelevant. He stood by them for a week after his "I love you" and changed his tune only after the threat of being convicted for it was very real. You'd have to be extremely prejudiced to believe that was in good faith.

It's also hilarious that he insists that no one in his movement would incite violence after HIS lawyer at HIS rally called for "trial by combat". RG fired yet? Nope? Seems pretty groovy with his movement inciting violence then.

Science can be as political as every other institution, e.g., the story of BIG tobacco. — synthesis

That's industry.

He isn't condoning anything by saying George Floyd resisted arrest, anyone can see that he did. — Judaka

Pretending I disagreed with this point is trolling, please stop.

:up:

Jesus, the guy really is an idiot. At what point is finally retracting your support for violent far-right lunatics not going to seem remotely sincere? When you left it a week and have just been impeached for inciting a violent, far-right insurrection. Nobody not up his ass is going to read this as anything other than panic about his impeachment.

Fortunately his criminal threats to Raffensperger to falsify the vote count are significantly more founded. But probably not symbolic enough for Republicans to get behind, since it's only the law and stuff. They might yet convict the right guy for the wrong reason.

The fact is, you don't know what the cause of death was — counterpunch

Yes I do. Everyone does. Even you probably do, it just doesn't fit into your black = criminal, white = saintly paradigm.

Please leave me alone. — counterpunch

Sure, just quit it with the alt-right, racist, fascist propaganda and I'll leave you well alone. Or even better just leave and go back to whatever communication platforms are still open to your backward lot. But every time you post this vile shit on this site, I will name it and condemn it until one or both of us are banned. That's the way it gotta be when you bring your fucked up war here.

I'm the white working class majority that Labour used to represent, but now don't — counterpunch

At least you're clear that it's Labour's perceived failure to represent your whiteness that you hate them for. I mean, not that it was particularly unclear before.

If nothing else, it's good to have Trump's status as the worst President in history ratified by Congress. I hope, since it's happening, the Senate convicts. The Republican enablers cleansing themselves of their sins is a lesser evil than magamaniacs seeing their cult leader "totally exonerated".

The fact is, you don't know what the cause of death was, and deciding whether it was murder is absolutely not your call. — counterpunch

Yes I do. The world does.

Watch it and tell me, if it was your job to arrest that man - would you keep him restrained? — counterpunch

Yes, and once he was restrained, I would not then murder him.

The restraint may have contributed to his death. — counterpunch

May have? It was videoed. You are without doubt the most disgusting individual I've ever really encountered, conversationally speaking.

The President just got busted inciting peace and calm.

In light of reports of more demonstrations, I urge that there must be NO violence, NO lawbreaking and NO vandalism of any kind. That is not what I stand for, and it is not what America stands for. I call on ALL Americans to help ease tensions and calm tempers. Thank You. — NOS4A2

Let me explain how time works. That ^ was issued today. The riot happened last week. Trump is being busted for what he did last week. Not doing it again today has no bearing on last week. Geddit?

Calling another poster "Jew... — Benkei

Probably because I kept singing:

Seditioooooooon, sedition !
Baaaarp de de parp parp barp
SEDITION!

Seditiooooooooooooon etc.

That’s all she is to you, eh? “some black people”? — NOS4A2

What?!? Even by your standards that makes no sense.

She’s the Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Rights division. — NOS4A2

Yup, and back then she was a kid at college. Btw I've now read the letter. She never once argues for black racial supremacy.

Difficult to see this as anything other than more racists jumping to condemn someone put in office because they happen to be black.

What? You believe that pseudoscience? Figures. — NOS4A2

I'm reserving judgment, I just believe you when you say you're sickened when someone says black people are good at stuff.

Yes, I can well imagine you genuinely sickened that someone would say black people might be better at some stuff than white people. Those uppity black people, eh.

Even if this was a scientific journal, any breakthrough requires taking accepted thought and jumping up and down on it until it is no longer recognized as truth. — synthesis

Via the complete opposite approach to unsubstantiated claim.

Rampant and unbridled voter fraud everywhere. Didn’t Joe Biden himself accidentally say they put together the greatest voter fraud in history during pre-election? — Rafaella Leon

So basically "Trump said so." Investigating false allegations of voter fraud does not demonstrate voter fraud, especially when those investigations found that there had been no voter fraud.

Great post. there's no way he can respond to that.

George Floyd resisted arrest — counterpunch

Resisting arrest is not an explanation for murdering someone *after* they're cuffed. Condoning racist murder with such obviously flawed argumentation is disgusting.

The most beautiful thing is that nobody remembers that the cause of the riot in the Capitol in the first place was the biggest electoral fraud of all time, an obvious crime of high treason protected by the Senate and Big Tech. Everyone wants to give the impression that the cause of the violence was innocuous little words from Trump. Madness has become mandatory. Investigating electoral fraud was prohibited, reporting it was prohibited, and even speaking in any context was prohibited. That's what communist transparency is. — Rafaella Leon

Can't tell if sarcasm...

My mother has racist friends and I hear her challenge them very well. The next day they say exactly the same thing. The prejudiced mind is most often a closed mind. — Jack Cummins

I've noticed the same. There is something rather sly about it. You think you're having a conversation, turns out they're just finding out what sort of arguments they need to defend against next time.

In order to do this you'd have to plop down a significant amount of cash and likely cash out investments. This is often a bad financial move because these investments that you sold have a high yearly return and now that money is basically locked into your house and you're no longer getting those returns. — BitconnectCarlos

Rent drives up house prices massively. The buy to let and property development to let booms in the UK anyway are the reasons housing affordability is incommensurate with earnings increases. (Oh, and Russian oligarchs buying up London real estate.) Rent is still the problem.

Regardless, I see you have a very low bar for branding events instances of racism against white people in the UK, how could you have possibly missed systemic racism against PoCs in the UK if your bar is that low? — fdrake

This seems astonishingly common and the crux of the matter. Non-racial slurs against white people are proof the the whites -- the ones who did slavery, lynch mobs, segregation, etc. -- are the oppressed race, while that same history of slavery, lynchings, segregation, etc., right through to the repeated murder of black people by white cops caught on video, to just now a white poster getting banned for calling someone the N-word, do not count as evidence, mere anomolies. This speaks to a rank hypocrisy that seems to characterise the alt-right, if not the right generally.

I don't think the intent should matter when calling another poster a racial slur. — fdrake

Oh, I agree, definitely banworthy.

Banned Brett for using racial slurs against another poster. Considering the rest of the post's content, it looks like another suicide by mod. — fdrake

Ah. Yeah, I got that impression too. I don't think he meant the racial slur literally, but it had absolutely nothing to do with the convo, just seemed like a "Ban me already". Even without the politics his posts were the worst. 50% seemed to be "What do you mean by 'cat'?" "What do you mean by 'people'?" "What do you mean by 'the'?" Pain in the aeiou.

It's a large quantity of wrong. I addressed the part I thought most amenable to progress. If I need advice about what to address from you, I'll give you a heads up but frankly it's well outside your jurisdiction.

Who and when on these forums have generalized whites by using terms like, "white privilege"? Lots of people in this forum. And when you disagree with them and point out the weak points of their argument, they call you a "racist". — Harry Hindu

Well either it is advantageous to be white in which case generally white people are privileged in that respect, or racism doesn't manifest itself statistically. Since racism is statistically manifest, it is generally advantageous to be white.

The usual “rambling and raving”. I mean really, is this the sort of reference we use now on this site. — Brett

Yes, when discussing whether it's true that fascists plan coups on parler, what they post on parler is remarkably relevant. Especially when, you know, those coups actually happen, dismissing them as noise is dumb as hell. Thank god the FBI take it a little more seriously.

Well what are you meaning when you say “a tiny number”, it’s a reasonable question. — Brett

What do you mean, "reasonable"?

What do you call “tiny”? — Brett

Buy a dictionary.

What exactly is my argument? — Brett

Proof if proof were needed that even Brett doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

Who said that? — Brett

Are you following the conversation you're involved in? Scroll up and, you know, read stuff.

the fuck they dont. why would you want to keep paying for something when you could instead just have it and stop paying? — Pfhorrest

I dare say there are a tiny number of such people. This rather reminds me of David Cameron's defense of the hugely exploitative zero-hours contracting, basically the same as Brett's argument.

So they call themselves “wannabe mass murderers”? It’s whose alleged goal, whatever that is? — Brett

In as many words, yes.

We need to start systematically assassinating liberal leaders

Axios dug up Facebook photos of the [alleged spy] woman, Fang Fang or Christine Fang. — Wayfarer

I keep seeing that she's an alleged spy; I can't find anything about the allegation though. So far, she's Chinese.