@A Seagull :up: Far too many think philosophy Is deferring to famous writers.
And on TPF deferring to "science".
Standards of proof and certain concepts have become so dogmatic as to render many discussions as basically appeals to authority.
This style relies on axioms which are not self evident!
I see the same dogmatism and pedantry as that of conservative religious discourse.
To me Philosophy is purely about Describing the world and experience to understand both.
Poets and novelists are much closer to philosophy than this linguistic sophistry.
Phenomenology plus linguistic Inferences is philosophy.
The "proof" for a philosophical assertion is does it describe something you recognise as accurate or plausible? And this judgement is always Subjective.
Finally,we must recognise the prevalence of lying and political agendas in the majority of "classical" philosophers. It's like the idols are still dancing with their clay feet to their emotionally insecure devotees.
Most of TPF philosophy is emotional therapy for insecurity.

@ssu Yes. And all official history is written with an agenda regardless of the country.

:rofl: No sense of irony or scientism.
Let these rabbits eat their strawman thistles and put on their lab coats complete with Idols for logic.
Appeals to authority!

@tim wood The irony and contradiction in your position is blown to smithereens by marx and you know it. Hence your ad hominem and verbal gymnastics.
And for the record,I dont have to wait for wiki quotes from you. When will you discuss on your own merits without appeals to authority.
Naughty naughty.

@tim wood Your quite the snowflake.
All bark and no bite.
Academic History is an Idol. Pure propoganda.
Theres a reason marxism was a dirty word for US politicians. Marx nailed the class struggle and that official history and knowledge are ideological.

@tim wood Yes,my Language has far too much clarity and finesse for you i agree. Must seem like another language to a pedant.
The irony is your last post was convoluted,not hegelian but pretty woolly.
Theres no rabbit holes,you are just scared of your idols being blasted.
How in the world does timmy reconcile competing histories by "scientific historians"?
Oh,btw was Marx a historian?

@Augustusea By sectarian you are referring to religion or ethnicity or tribe or what? What is the current sectarianism based on in your opinion?

@tim wood You have a bad habit of over complicating and arguments from authority.
Are you saying before 1850 and mr dilthey nowhere in the world had "scientific history"?
If mr Caesars history is accurate within limits what of Islamic jewish and Christian history?

@Augustusea You said there wasnt sectarianism in the abbasid times but its a recently developed thing.
What time period did this start. And what do you say are the reasons?

@tim wood See you can do it. A relevant post. Albeit a little strawmannish and not delineating how history is a reliable general source.
So history proper starts 1850? How did they verify the history pre 1850? From what sources? You think ceasars history of the gauls was accurate?
And pray tell why is american history immune to the same propoganda of russia after 1850?
Is history an American science?

@Augustusea Iraq included Jordan back then? Thats a different border. And Syria what were the borders back then?
So basically you want your history to be valid but Jewish and Islamic history not. Sounds legit.
Basically this boils down to what is the legitimacy and accuracy of history. Who's history do you follow?

My goodness! Snowflake philosophy!
To me Philosophy or better still Logic is honest human Description. It is Subjective. The word objective is a nonsense when used literally.
The problem I see is old dinosaurs pendants and dogmatists who appeal to Authority and "history" in lieu of Logic and those who get all whitney emotional when their beloved idols are smashed.

@Augustusea So in other words the borders are different
now. What do you mean by future wannabes?

@niki wonoto
I would say try not to read to much pessimistic philosophy
and try to do things you enjoy.
Thoughts like these arise from a traumatic childhood and this can get worse when your tired.
A lot of times thoughts of failure is just societies bullshit telling you what you should achieve.
It takes bravery to write a public post like this.
Medication exercise fresh air hobbies recalling happy times all help.
Its always been my experience things are never as bad as they seem.
Best of luck. Take it easy.

Childbirth.
Hard exercise.
Dieting.
All can involve pain and untold happiness.
Happiness also depends on your attitude and responsibility to create your own.happiness.
Happiness is a verb.

Here's an open question.
What distinguishes the "scientific" modern history of the
US,Russia and North korea?
Is the implication US history is more "scientific" and honest than Russia and North korea?
A huge amount of assumptions go into this kind of thinking.
Let's see a case for this myth of objective history.

@tim wood A cynic! You mean A realist who has seen how govt operates and what it is.
As per usual I will ignore the ad hominem and your ploy of making cases which one knows you will never be satisfied with. And never sticking to the point at hand.
As for selling!!!? You are trying to sell the myth of history and ignore the govts number one agenda is to maintain its power base and wealth. That is a manifest fact. You ignore the american imperialism since WW2 to say nothing of the lies of pearl harbour,gulf of tomkin,9-11,WMD iraqi.reconstruction contracts etc etc etc.
Maybe your not aware science and history carries its own assumptions and political biases.
Hesiod,thucydides,machiavelli the scribes of the bible,modern.history and american history,all propoganda narratives.

@tim wood What part of the term republic American history you not understandin timmy?
Maybe you are under the illusion that history and american history is written purely by honest non partisan
academics who personally witnessed the entire 2003 conflict and were privy to and invited to critique Bush et al. I'm sure you would say the official history of Russia,north korea,china and Palestine was partisan propoganda and biased by said nations.
News for you brother,America is just the same and worse.
The purveyor of official history is govt. And the US Admin is as dishonest as they come. It's been involved in numerous invasions proxy conflicts economic cronyism since WW2. Show me the mainstream American academic history that reflects this?
History is a lie agreed upon.

@ssu Yes. Official American Republican academic history.

My goodness! I forgot Confucious!!! Apologies great one!
Confucius at B: let's kick out bergson. Rest as you are.
Phew.

S: Numerous unknown Poets yogis shamans sages.
A: Protagorus.
B: Pantanjali.
C: Guatama buddha.

D: schopenhauer/Nietszche/kierkeegard.
E: Bergson.
F: the most influential and worst. Plato.

@ssu You dont have to buy anything. Fact is every country will have a different history geared towards its national propaganda.
Do you really think Iraqi history will paint the Americans as liberators and totally justified in invading iraq?
Yet american history will paint the gulf conflict as being about liberating hearts and minds from a regime that supposedly had WMDs.
You think german history of WW2 is the same as the Russian version?
There may be a few facts of history but most is interpretation selective events and downright lies.
You are aware of the gulf of tomkin and pearl harbour being false flags? What makes you think govts are truthful when it comes to war reporting?
Reporters are only told what govt press releases wants them to know. You think the media just waltz into war zones and report every event?
600 years ago who were the historians and journalists?
Govt backed scribes and propagandists.
You cannot have value free anything. And honesty is the last thing govts release to journalists. To say nothing of journalistic propaganda and lies.
Fake news has always been the norm.
Have you watched the news or seen the state of journalism? History is just academic journalism.
Look at the history of 9-11. Only a few decades back. All nonsense. Thus is your scientific history.

@tomi7 Nice story. That is what I call real Karma! To me Karma is the human desire for honest justice. Whenever philosophers or dogmatists get there hands on a concept a human desire they make it into some non human abstract force for control.
Man is the measure of all things. Not a ruler! Pun intended.

According to extremist Islamist or extremist Jewish history Iraq belongs under the rule of a single caliph or greater Israel. Whose "history" is valid???
@Augustusea

@Augustusea The "history of the people".
You mean the Iraqi propoganda called history.
The masses dont write history the wealthy political Elite do. And of course they never lie or propogandise!

@Augustusea The potential oil and American business contracts are top factors as to why iraq has these problems. Plus the greedy factions covering power and their supporters and propagandists.
My point is Iran is quite different bit doesnt have the problems Iraq has. Nothing to do with unique countries but foreign policy. You realise Libya and Egypt also have a few problems due to US interventions?

@Augustusea Iran is more multicultural. Doesnt speak Arabic. Has even more Shia and ethnicities. And has twice the poulation of Iraq.
But the point is this is just nationalist posturing.
The main relevent history with Iraq is the the fall of Saddam, the US invasion and the current Saudi Iranian US
Interferring and disgruntled iraqi troublemakers.

@Augustusea Yes I'm aware the parties were hostile and had different approaches. I'm showing that there was similarity in political structure in both countries.
Pre 1916 what were the borders?
If every country is unique what makes iraq different?
Iraq is Arabic speaking Muslim and comprised of different ethnic groups. No different to Syria Saudi Jordan etc. Iran has more difference due to language and ethnicities.

@Augustusea Was there an ottoman empire. And was there a Sykes picot agreement In 1916?
Other individuals matter because I'm showing people dont agree with your pessimism.
Every nationalist claims his country is unique.
You realise Syria and Iraq both had baath party ideology during the reigns of Saddam and Assad?

@ssu Because the history from 60 years ago is full of propaganda. So 600 years is gonna be even worse.
I'm not American btw. What's important is recent history and now. Living in a mythical past is for politicians and nationalists.

@Augustusea I do believe Iran,Saudi,Palestine,Pakistan Turkey,Bangladesh Yemen etc etc all had similiar problems. I've never heard Syrians say anything remotely like what your saying and they had a very recent civil conflict.
I see no reason why you think Iraq is unique in history.
You are aware the current iraq is not necessarily the same borders from 100 years ago?

@Augustusea 600 years! Before the first gulf invasion iraq had one of the highest GDPs in the middle east.
Your attitude is invalid. You've swallowed a bogus history.
I've met many Iraqis and they never said that the previous times were as bad as your making out.
100 years! Man you have no faith in progress. Hows Yugoslavia Rwanda and northern Ireland different to Iraq?

@Augustusea Read your posts.
1000 years! Man your attitude is a problem!
Places like Yugoslavia Rwanda northern ireland achieved peace in relatively short times.
Seriously,you are part of the problem. A pessimist with running water and electricity and internet probably better fed than me and with two cars.

@Augustusea So civil war works in the 21st century?
It sounds like your attitude and personal politics are hopeless mate. Let's hope Iraq improves peacefully.

@Augustusea What a load of marxist nonsense! It's like you want war. So war will purify the youth and you will build your utopia and free iraq from the elite by imposing another elite on the backs of dead bodies.
I'm sure every revolutionary said these same words.
Even mr Saddam Hussein would approve. Going to war for economics. Bravo.

@Augustusea Well you have a choice to wish for non violent solutions. Hasn't Iraq already been involved in civil war?
You act like this is a game and you have to try new things.
So if they wont benefit whats the point?
Life is precious. Pakistan in the eighties had intermittent electricity and crappy sewage systems plus govt corruption. No civil war. Much better now.
Politics ain't no game and neither is war.

@Augustusea Well you are part of the problem.
Saying the choice is civil war or coup is irresponsible.
Will the poor be better off with civil war?
Its amazing how bourgeoise think the solution is always some drastic nonsense whilst sitting home pontificating on the internet.

@Augustusea How are you on the internet?

@Augustusea With respect I think you are being defeatist and identifying with the govt as some kind of saviour. Civil war is horrible. And a coup will still bring in a corrupt govt.
What I'm saying is any govt is going to oppress to some degree. If you are able to work study and travel then live your life. Politics is not a saviour.

@Augustusea. Oh,I wasnt saying to vote. I dont doubt a lot of corruption goes on. I'm saying dont wait for political
solutions just live your life without getting involved in the shenanigans. What is the situation where you live?