I doubt many men would care. — Malcolm Parry

And yet the poll you linked to says that 51% of men oppose trans men using the men's toilets (with only 33% in support). So evidently most men do care.

The person's biology has a huge influence on the development someone. — Malcolm Parry

Yes, but there's more to biology, and in particular neurology, than just sex chromosomes and genitals.

Men growing up will not have the same experiences women. — Malcolm Parry

And transgender women growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender men, and transgender men growing up will not have the same experiences as cisgender women. It's not all about sex chromosomes and genitals. I don't know why you can't accept this. We are not merely biological automatons. We are conscious organisms with complex psychologies and personal identities, with gender identity "develop[ing] surprisingly rapidly in the early childhood years, and in the majority of instances appears to become at least partially irreversible by the age of 3 or 4."

The gender is reflection of the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

And these societal differences have nothing to do with biology. Gender is distinct from sex.

read the link — Malcolm Parry

Ah, so public opinion changed between 2022 and 2024. It's interesting that there's such a large swing in just two years. There's even a majority opposition to trans men using the men's bathroom, and again with men being much less tolerant than women. But speaking as a man, I don't care what other men think. Trans men ought be allowed to use the men's bathroom.

The age breakdown is also interesting, with the majority of 18-24 year olds supporting trans people using their preferred bathroom, and every other age group being the opposite. The other biggest determinants are who you voted for (more Lib Dems support it than oppose, whereas more Conservatives oppose it than support) and whether or not you know a trans person.

I wonder how much of the opposition is reminiscent of historical (and even current) homophobia and gay panic.

Allowing men into women's bathrooms. — Malcolm Parry

When including transwomen who have had gender-affirming surgery, 45% of women say that transwomen should be allowed to use the women's bathroom compared to 34% who say they shouldn't (with 21% saying they don't know). 45 is greater than 34.

So this ties into my claim to Harry Hindu that we ought to at least let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women's bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men's bathroom.

But what's most interesting I think is that men are much less tolerant of transwomen using women's facilities than women are. I don't know if that's because men are in general less tolerant of transgender people or because they're white knighting.

Gender is the societal differences between the sexes. — Malcolm Parry

These societal differences are distinct from any biological differences, so clearly gender is distinct from sex. And people can identify as belonging to the gender that is not typical for their biological sex.

Looks like the majority of women disagree with you. Do you dismiss that? — Malcolm Parry

Disagree with me on what?

Dismissing their concerns and shared experience. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

But as it may interest you:

You want males to enter their exclusive places. Is that not dismissing it? — Malcolm Parry

I am questioning the claim that certain bathrooms ought be exclusive to biological women.

I think that is a meaningless concept and dismisses what it is to be female. — Malcolm Parry

So you deny the reality that gender is distinct from sex?

You have dismissed the concerns of females in spaces where they are may feel awkward and vulnerable. The toilet is one of those places. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it.

I reject the notion that man can become a woman. — Malcolm Parry

Again with the equivocation. Nobody is claiming that a biological man can become a biological woman or that a biological woman can become a biological man. What is claimed is that biological men can have a female gender identity, that biological women can have a male gender identity, and that certain social divisions ought be made by gender identity rather than biological sex.

Separate bathrooms is not just about sex organs and the place of females in society is not based just on sex organs. — Malcolm Parry

Harry Hindu is the one who said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts" and so I am simply addressing the implications of this reasoning.

I find the whole dismissive attitude to female experience in society quite sad. — Malcolm Parry

I'm not dismissing it. But you certainly seem to be dismissing transgender experience.

You continue to think that transgender women are psychologically, socially, and culturally equivalent to cisgender men simply because they share the same set of chromosomes, gonads, and genitals. Your view is mistaken.

but there are still threats to females and unique challenges for females — Malcolm Parry

And there are threats to and unique challenges for transgender men and transgender women.

Here we go again with conflating gender with biology, which leaves out those that have not had surgery. — Harry Hindu

I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw.

I have also asked for examples of gender as something psychological. I have already shown an example of gender as something cultural (sexist tropes). So I'm still waiting on you to provide an example of what you mean. Just tell me what you mean when you assert you are a man or woman? Why can't you do that simple thing? — Harry Hindu

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm asking a question about how they can they reach the conclusions they have when the evidence they provide doesn't include necessary information to reach that conclusion and is contradictory. I asked how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. This is required information and the fact that it is not included is suspicious. The fact that I cannot find the information is also suspicious - kind of like how that study that showed the negative effects of transitioning children was swept under the rug. I have shown evidence that scientists are not always truthful and can be manipulated by politics as much as anyone else, yet you keep pleading to authority when I have shown that the authority you are pleading to has not provided all the necessary information and has been caught keeping necessary information out of the public view.

And when we live in an age of disinformation propagated by the authorities on both sides of the political spectrum, why would you not at least question authority than hides necessary information to claim what they are claiming? — Harry Hindu

If you don’t trust what the experts have determined then I don’t see how I can help. As I alluded to before, I can no more prove that there are sex differences in psychology than I can prove that humans evolved via natural selection from single-celled organisms. All I can do is point you in the direction of the research. What you do with that is out of my control.

Well shoot why not a fourth gender? Or a fifth. Or a sixth. Or a 12th while we're at it! This is not slippery slope fallacy, this is what people will attempt to argue for. — Outlander

Well, yes. The Bugis society recognizes five genders, and has so for at least 600 years.

A limit must be drawn lest mankind wander forever lost in a dystopian deluge of his own making. — Outlander

Why? There's no singularly correct way for society and culture to be structured. You seem to have some Western bias, thinking that it's only appropriate to group people according to biological sex and not in other ways.

What I mean is that tuxedos being “men’s clothes” and dresses being “women’s clothes” is entirely a social and cultural construct and has nothing to do with a person’s DNA. And the same for other social and cultural differences between the sexes.

Certainly many psychological differences between the sexes are influenced by karyotype - to the extent that karyotype influences hormones and that nature trumps nurture - and these psychological differences may explain why certain gender roles and gender expressions are the way they are - which is what I was explaining in that comment.

We separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts. — Harry Hindu

Which is why I said it makes sense to let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women’s bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men’s bathroom.

So which is it, is gender a social construct - a spectrum of societal expectations of the sexes, or is it a spectrum of various feelings an individual has? — Harry Hindu

It’s both, which is why the article on gender that I directed you to says “gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender.”

If gender is psychological then provide some examples that are clearly psychological (which would just mean that they are biological) instead of being clearly social/cultural - like wearing a dress and high heels is. — Harry Hindu

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

It's your argument. You're the one that needs to support it, not me. — Harry Hindu

It’s not my argument. It’s what the experts in psychology and psychiatry have determined. If you think that they're wrong then the burden is on you to explain where they’ve gone wrong. I no more have to support their claims than I have to support the claims of biologists when trying to educate someone on evolution.

And this is the fundamental problem with your position. You seem to question the very existence of gender (as something distinct from biological sex) despite what the experts say and despite the existence of transgender people.

It's one thing to argue that sports teams, bathrooms, prisons, etc. ought be divided by biological sex regardless of gender identity – and as this is a political matter you're well within your rights to – but to deny that gender identity is even a thing strikes me as willful ignorance.

You're getting a little speculative there. — frank

Yep.

It’s interesting to consider how and why the social and cultural differences between men and women have developed over time. I suspect things were very different in the Paleolithic.

I'm suggesting the possibility that the majority of the differences between sexes found in the article you linked are cultural, social, and otherwise "learned." — Outlander

It does say as much:

Sex differences in psychology are differences in the mental functions and behaviors of the sexes and are due to a complex interplay of biological, developmental, and cultural factors.

...

Such variation may be innate, learned, or both.

...

A number of factors combine to influence the development of sex differences, including genetics and epigenetics; differences in brain structure and function; hormones, and socialization.

...

Both biological and social/environmental factors have been studied for their impact on sex differences. Separating biological from environmental effects is difficult, and advocates for biological influences generally accept that social factors are also important.

So I suppose there's likely a sort of feedback loop across the centuries, with any initial social and cultural differences between the sexes stemming from "natural" psychological differences, and then these social and cultural differences being the cause of further "nurtured" psychological differences which in turn drive further social and cultural differences.

And I am asking you how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. — Harry Hindu

Presumably because of their prevalence. If some trait is typical of 98% of biological men but only 2% of biological women then it’s an example of a sex difference, but you’re better off asking a psychologist, not me.

I’ve linked to the article, it has a list of references, so do the research if you’re unwilling to trust it at face value.

I explained it very clearly above.

There are sex differences in psychology.

These differences drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and almost nothing to do with phenotype.

Almost all biological men "belong" to the same psychological/social/cultural group, and so we (also) name this psychological/social/cultural group "men".

Almost all biological women "belong" to the same psychological/social/cultural group, and so we (also) name this psychological/social/cultural group "women".

But some biological men and some biological women do not "fit" within the typical psychological/social/cultural group that members of their biological sex usually "belong" to. Some push the boundaries of one group or the other, and so identify as "gender non-conforming", some "fit" somewhere in the middle, and so identify as "non-binary", and some "fit" within the psychological/social/cultural group that is typical of the opposite biological sex, and so identify as "transgender".

It's really not that hard to understand.

What isn't the case – contrary to your continued misrepresentations – is that transgender women are "biological men who believe they are biological women" or that transgender men are "biological women who believe they are biological men".

The delusion is that there is more to being a woman than having XX Chromosomes, ovaries and vagina. — Harry Hindu

So their delusion is in thinking that the English noun "woman" doesn't just mean "an adult human with an XX karyotype, ovaries, and a vagina"?

Well, this isn't a delusion because it's true. The English noun "woman" doesn't just mean this. It has more than one meaning. It can also refer to a non-biological gender.

And even if it were false, thinking that a word means something it doesn't hardly qualifies as a type of psychosis.

Why are we even talking about sex genitalia in a thread about gender? Again, why should it matter what sex parts one has (and to even call artificial sex parts, "sex parts" is questionable) if gender is a feeling and/or social construct? — Harry Hindu

Because people like you are claiming that things like bathrooms and changing rooms ought be divided by biological sex. So why? What is the relevant difference between biological men and biological women such that they ought get changed in different rooms? Why don't we all get changed in the same room?

Still talking about differences in sexes....

If these properties exist in both males and females then how can you say that these mental functions and behaviors are distinctions of sex rather than simply being part of the variety that exists among all humans? Also, are these mental functions and behaviors of each sex consistent across all cultures? If so, we would be talking about something biological, not cultural. — Harry Hindu

I don't understand what you're asking here.

There are observable psychological differences between the sexes. How much of this is nature and how much is nurture is still an open question, though it's likely that both play a role.

But this isn't some absolute distinction such that every biological male has one type of psychology and every biological female has the other type of psychology. There are people who fall in between, and there are biological males who share the type of psychology typical of biological females and biological females who share the type of psychology typical of biological males.

A man wearing a dress and believes that now makes him a woman has a delusional disorder. — Harry Hindu

Your phrasing equivocates. You call the transgender woman a "man", suggesting that by "man" you are referring to biological sex, and so presumably by "woman" you are also referring to biological sex?

But as has been explained many times before, the biological man who identifies as a woman doesn’t identify as having XX chromosomes, ovaries, or a vagina, and so your claim is an obvious misrepresentation.

Given that the transgender woman doesn't identify as a biological woman, what delusion is it you think she has?

What would one's bottom have to do with where you can change clothes? — Harry Hindu

You tell me. Why do we have separate men's and women's changing rooms at all? Surely it has something to do with phenotype? If so, then it stands to reason that any biological man with a female phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the women's changing room and any biological woman with a male phenotype – even if artificial – ought use the men's changing room.

There's certainly no good reason for something like karyotype to be at all relevant.

And invoking the term, "psychological" just reinforces my assertion that we are dealing with a delusional disorder. You are ignoring all the problems I posed by defining gender as a social construct. You continue to be intellectually dishonest. I have responded to each and every point you have made in your posts yet you cannot show the same respect.

I have also been asking which feelings one has that makes one a man or woman. You can't even explain what it means to be a man or woman for yourself. What feelings are you referring to when you assert you are one or the other? How am I suppose to understand what you mean when you won't explain what you mean?

How can one's feelings be gender and a social construct be gender when a trans-person's feelings is at odds with the social construct? — Harry Hindu

There are sex differences in psychology. These differences are what drive the development of gender expression and gender roles in society – expressions and roles which have absolutely nothing to do with karyotype and almost nothing to do with phenotype.

The psychology of most biological males is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender, and the psychology of most biological females is similar enough that they identify as belonging to the same gender. But psychology is complex and a gradient, not straightforward and black and white. Some are gender non-conforming but still identify as (mostly) "belonging" to one gender or the other, some do not identify as "belonging" to either gender – or as "belonging" to both – and some identify as "belonging" to the gender that is most predominantly occupied by the opposite biological sex.

A society where people that do not wear clothes would be genderless as well. — Harry Hindu

It's not just about clothes. But, sure, in some idealised society that has no gender roles and where there is never any kind of separation or difference between biological males and biological females (outside of reproduction and reproductive health), and assuming for the sake of argument that sex differences in psychology are explained entirely by nurture and not by nature, then perhaps transgenderism wouldn't occur (although gender dysphoria might) – but we don't live in such a world.

You seem to be suggesting that anything that is socially or culturally "caused" therefore isn't "real"? That would be a non sequitur.

However, stories abound of kids who decide on a whim they want to be of the opposite sex, and manage to receive hormone therapies and whatnot without ever seeing a psychologist or even without their parents consent. — Tzeentch

Sure, but that’s a reason to better regulate the treatment; it’s not a reason to dismiss the treatment as an option entirely.

What about an alternative, non-invasive treatment - teaching a child to accept the healthy, natural body they have been born with? — Tzeentch

That’s usually where it starts. But it’s naive to presuppose that all cases of gender dysphoria and the like can be treated merely by psychotherapy and non-hormonal medication. It’s when this fails that other approaches are necessary.

That’s true about all children’s medical issues, and is why doctors, parents, and (when relevant) psychiatrists are also involved in the decision making.

As a related example is when the decision is made on how best to treat someone born intersex. Sometime this requires surgery to “make” them a boy or a girl.

And that's another reason transitioning should only be for mature adults. A fair number of detransitioned youths say they thought they could actually change to the opposite sex. They learned through experience post-transition, that you can't actually do that. — frank

This is where there is some difficulty. On the one hand, children are likely too young to make such drastic medical decisions, but on the other hand transitioning before puberty is likely easier and has more satisfactory results than transitioning after puberty.

I suppose we have to determine whether or not the rate of regret is sufficiently high to warrant erring on the side of caution.

Why should women have to give up their hard fought for rights to men? — Malcolm Parry

They’re not.

Whether that's a viable option seems to depend heavily on whether or not a person passes for the other sex.

This is probably the elephant in the room that is rarely talked about, because it's obviously an unfortunate thing to have to tell someone that they are unable to pass for the opposite sex, but it's the reality for many. — Tzeentch

The specific case I had in mind were those who have had bottom surgery.

It seems bizarre to say that trans men with an artificial penis ought use the women’s changing room and trans women with artificial breasts and an artificial vagina ought use the men’s changing room.

I'm not sure what the authorities could do to accommodate them. — Malcolm Parry

Let them use the women’s changing room. They shouldn’t be required to use the men’s changing room.

because many women feel threatened and uncomfortable when men are are around when they are undressing — Malcolm Parry

And I’m sure trans women who have surgically transitioned feel the same.

Incidentally, speaking of changing rooms - what does one do if a man wants to take his young daughter, or a woman her young son, to the swimming bath? This is a genuine problem that arises from the separation, however our current question is resolved. Obviously a babe in arms has to go with the parent; obviously a teen has to go on their own. Where is the line between them? And for children with Downs' or other disability? Would you send your 4 yr old to get changed on their own? (This is a genuine social dilemma I have faced with my daughter) — unenlightened

I would have thought that anywhere that has children being undressed would have private cubicles.

That’s how it was the last time I went swimming (years ago). There weren’t separate men’s and women’s changing rooms, just individual cubicles that anyone could use.

Which we disagree on. — Malcolm Parry

So why is that?

Prima facie there’s no good reason to treat people with an XX karyotype and people with an XY karyotype differently. Outside of any medical issues, what relevance is DNA to everyday life?

And prime facie there’s no good reason to treat people with ovaries and people with testes differently. Outside of any medical issues or sexual reproduction, what relevance are gonads to everyday life?

And prime facie there’s no good reason to treat people with a penis and people with a vagina differently. Outside of any medical issues or sexual reproduction, what relevance are genitals to everyday life? Perhaps it’s only relevant wherever nudity is a thing?

The question we have to then ask is why are there social and cultural differences between the sexes? Is it because of biological differences, or are biological differences merely incidental? Are there social and cultural differences between the sexes because of psychological differences between the sexes? If so, and if there are people who are biologically female but have a psychology closer to the typical biological male than to the typical biological female then it makes more sense for this individual to be treated like the typical biological male - precisely because in everyday life our psychology is much more important than our DNA, our gonads, and our genitals.

I disagree — Malcolm Parry

Which goes back to what I said on page 8.

I think that many of these discussions tend to get caught up in pointless arguments about what the “real” meaning of a word is.

If you choose to use the words "man" and "woman" to refer to the general biological dichotomy found in humans, then fine. If you choose to the use the words to refer to some general psychological or social dichotomy, then fine. It simply doesn't matter.

The pertinent question is: should bathrooms, sports teams, prisons, etc. be divided by biological sex, by gender identity, by something else, or by nothing at all? — Michael

Gender was a word to describe the social and cultural characteristics of the two sexes.

So a man (Adult Human male) is acting in the manner associated with the social and cultural characteristics of a woman (Adult Human Female). — Malcolm Parry

One can psychologically identify as belonging to the social and cultural group that is usually occupied by the opposite biological sex.

And words like “man” and “woman” can refer either to a person of a particular biological sex or to a person who belongs to the particular social and cultural group usually occupied by a particular biological sex. Usually these are congruent, but sometimes they’re not.

You could say they're men acting like women. — RogueAI

What does that mean?

If “woman” means “biologically female” then to act like a woman is to act biologically female. But what does it mean to act biologically female?

Does it mean to act as if one has an XX karyotype? What does that mean?

Does it mean to act as if one has ovaries and a womb? What does that mean?

The fact that you even use a phrase like “act like a woman” shows at least a partial understanding of gender-as-distinct-from-sex.

This is one of the reasons liberals have been having a tough time in elections and it's just wrong. Trans men aren't women. They're men pretending to be women. — RogueAI

Even if that were true, that has nothing to do with how laws work.

They could have written the law in this way:

A1. At least 50% of the board must be X
A2. The term “X” in (1) means “cisgender women or transgender women”

But instead they wrote it this way:

B1. At least 50% of the board must be women
B2. The term “women” in (1) means “cisgender women or transgender women”

The only issue with B is that B2 is incompatible with the EA 2010. Had the law been written as A then the Supreme Court would have ruled differently.

Yet you assert that a trans-woman has a vagina when what they actually have is an open wound that they have to use medical grade stents to keep open. Any misunderstanding I have is a result of your inability to define the terms you are using in a meaningful way. — Harry Hindu

Call it whatever you like. A random stranger in the same room isn’t going to be able to tell the difference between a natural and an artificial set of genitals.

A trans man who has had bottom surgery ought use the men’s changing room and a trans woman who has had bottom surgery ought use the women’s changing room.

Their chromosomes and the genitals they were born with are irrelevant.

No wonder I couldn't find what I was looking for. I was asking about their feeling of what it means to be a man or woman. You're now talking about cultural norms which are the antithesis of personal feelings. — Harry Hindu

Try reading it again. You’ll see that the word “psychological” was listed.

but you were the one asserting that words have an unambiguous meaning — Harry Hindu

No I wasn’t. Many words have ambiguous meanings. Many words have multiple meanings. I’m not the one asking for some singular definition of “male gender”, just as I’m not the one claiming that there’s some singular definition of “male sex”. Language and biology and psychology and society and culture are not that simple. The world is a complex place, and is precisely why any essentialist approach to the issue is doomed to fail.

Question: is the law symmetrically constructed so as to protect men? That is, within this law are males and females protected equally and in the same way, implicitly or explicitly? The Scots would have apparently been willing to vote a dude into a woman's seat, but would they allow a woman into a man's? — tim wood

There's no such thing as a "man's seat" or a "woman's seat". The law in question simply states:

The 'gender representation objective' for a public board is that it has 50% of non-executive members who are women.

...

"woman" includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment [to female]...

and things like this law you referenced about women getting 50% of the seats on boards. — RogueAI

The law could have instead been written as:

(1) The “gender representation objective” for a public board is that it has 50% of non-executive members who are women or who have a female GRC (within the meaning of the Gender Recognition Act 2004).

Which was their intention when they wrote the law.

Unfortunately for them it was written a different way:

(1) The “gender representation objective” for a public board is that it has 50% of non-executive members who are women
(2) “woman” includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.

Allowing (2) to be overruled by the EA 2010.

Autism spectrum? — frank

Huh?

So only biological women can satisfy the 50% rule, right? — frank

Yes.

Specifically, see here:

Key definitions

In this Act—

...

“woman” includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (within the meaning of section 7 of the Equality Act 2010) if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.

The Supreme Court ruled that this contradicts UK law, and so the Scottish parliament were required to repeal that definition:

In section 2 (key definitions) of the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, the definition of “woman” is repealed.

Did you mean "excludes" there? — frank

No. It includes those with a GRC and is why the issue was raised. Scottish Women Ltd argued that that inclusion is contrary to the EA 2010 and that the Scottish parliament does not have the authority to contradict UK law.