You suggest that 'we need to go through all these painful deaths if we're going to ever see our mistakes' regarding errors in philosophy. It reminds me of a book title by the psychologist, James Hillman, 'We've Had a Hundred Years of Psychotherapy and the World is Getting Worse.' Similarly, we may ask about where philosophy is going in way of progress?

I think that it a complicated dialectic. On one hand, there is the way in which mainstream and countercultural protests are opposed. But, also the ideas and ideals in the counterculture become so successful that they are incorporated into the mainstream. So, a further new wave of protest ideas come in, both within the arts and other forms of ideas.

Also, political factors come into play affecting trends, as well as interrelated ideas which are not necessarily countercultural as such, but divergent. What I am thinking of is how there was the whole idea of the new age movement. This was partly connected to ideals based on the aquarian movement, which was linked in some ways with the utopian ideals which emerged from the hippy age, and the rise of the new age hippies. However, it was also interconnected with millennium fears, linked to the significance of the year 2000.

But, the world didn't end or the computers didn't crash, and even 2012 was seen as being potentially significant, in relation to the Mayan calendar. But, I think it is harder to disentangle the different conflicting ideas now, because it is as if many movements are partly fragmenting and converging too. I am not even sure how or if the idea of the new age affected or was seen by the philosophers. I know that such ideas are often seen as 'woo' on this site, but I don't know if that is an accurate global picture.

You have added a couple of new pictures, and they are a little different, but extremely powerful. I am interested to know what media you are working in. I did wonder if the initial ones were done using computer graphics. However, the latest look more like paintings, and it is possible that you are combining the two, because I think that is one of the ways in which graphics and illustrations is going_ the new reality emerging within art.

When you speak of elites and technocracies, this also makes me think about how in some ways rather than a possible deadend, there is also so much scope for ideas which challenge the status quo. I think that this exists in the internet, but also within philosophy and the arts historically. When I spoke of T.S. Eliot's 'The Wasteland', we can think how that was a major influence in literature and the cultural development of ideas.

I think that it is worth looking back at the way in which ideas developed in the twentieth century. The 1960s protest movement played a key role with the expression in the music and the development of counterculture. This was linked with the rise of sociology and women's liberation. There was also punk rock and other genres, which spoke of alienation, but also with a radical idea of transformation.

In the twentieth century, we are in an interesting time. In philosophy, we can see the past history of existentialism and romanticism, as well as postmodernism. Alongside this, we have the developments in the sciences, especially neuroscientists. So, it is interesting to know what comes next in philosophy and culture. My own thinking about it fluctuates between demoralisation and optimism. But, I think it is clear that in this information age, there is so much which, as you say is nonsense, and part of the problem may be that many people get lost in making their way through all the jumble of ideas.

Thanks to people who have entered into this discussion. I am about to go to bed, but I will look at them tomorrow, and write some comments, because I don't wish to rush replies when I am tired. In the meantime, I hope that the topic inspires some interesting dialogue and debate.

I have just thought that it is funny really, because I am going off to sleep, and dream..

They are fantastic and I hope that my thread survives a while longer, so that your art and what you have written are seen by others. I do art myself, but most of my art is on the wall in my mother's house. I did study art therapy, but haven't done much art in the last few years but would like to do so.

I imagined you would be rather creative, having chosen the name PoeticUniverse. I see the creative arts as being as essential to philosophy as physics and the other physical sciences. When I started this thread I was thinking partly about the nature of reality in relation to physics, but I was also thinking of it in the widest possible way. So, thanks for your input and fantastic input, and I hope that this thread continues for a while longer, as a little gallery...

I think that maths does have a lot to explain about the nature of time, in terms of the figures. But, I think that there is also symbolism of numbers, which I think is interesting. As far as I know 7 is the number of perfection, and 6 as the number 12 as well, with the idea of 13 being considered as imperfection. At one point, numerology, the mystery of numbers was taken seriously, but I think now it is considered to be a rather outdated 'occult' practice. But, on the subject of time, I have thought about time zones recently, mainly as a result of using this site, because I am aware that certain people come on at certain times, and it is because our own days and nights vary so much.

I am interested in the subject of dreams and have thought about creating a thread on dreams. The only reason why I haven't done it is because it is sometimes hard to formulate ideas which make them work as philosophy issues, but I may be tempted to take the risk...

I wondered about your own experience of altered perception. I definitely find music to be one way of experiencing the numinous, and have some kind of natural affinity with psychedelic experience.But, I do have intense hypnagogic and hypnopompic experiences at times, in which I am floating around in the room, knowing that my body is lying on the bed, and these are a bit unnerving.

It also seems to me that some people are more inclined to have OBEs than others, and I think that comes into play when people use any kind of substances. But, I do think that Huxley's book, 'The Doors of Perception/Heaven and Hell' is so interesting too, especially how it points to the idea of the mind being a reducing valve for mind at large, which is based on Bergson's idea. I am not saying that I am sure that perspective is true, but I do see it as a possibility.

However, what makes the OBE or NDE difficult to be seen as real 'proof' is that the person is still alive enough to return to life. But, I think that it may be the furthest proof. But, of course, it is possible to go into the real territory of 'woo'land, with people who claim to have been visited by spirits and I have a friend who speaks of having encounters St Augustine. However, all these ideas are open to critical analysis, and I of all people am aware of the need for this based on my experience of psychiatric nursing.

At times, my own experiences, including those using substances and those which I had naturally do make me question, even though I do not see them as proof, of any potential life beyond this one. I have experienced a number of strange out of body experiences naturally, which can occur if I am under severe stress or haven't eaten enough.

The big experience which does make me wonder about life beyond the body was the one which I had on acid, which I mentioned in one of my threads. It was where I went to the mirror, expecting to see some kind of monster. Instead, I could see the walls around me, and the radiator but I was not there at all. It was as if I had got out of my body truly. The whole experience was one in which I knew that I had some connection with my body, but it did seem to have become unhinged in some remarkable way. I was able to walk, but I had the sensation of being able to walk through people. I spent the night lying down and having sips of water, and in the morning I felt that things had gone back to normal. When I felt that I wanted some breakfast, I felt that this was a sign that I was back in my body, and I felt safe to leave the warehouse and make my way home.

That is a wonderful piece of art you have put on the thread. It is rather psychedelic and metaphysical. Do you know who the artist is?

I
I am sorry if I misunderstood you. I am just interested in the future of philosophy and related fields of thought. It is not my own personal issue, because apart from writing on this site and reading books, I don't have any role or life revolving around philosophy at all. But, I do enjoy my reading and, thinking itself.

I do agree that culture is changing fast and it is hard to keep up with it. Also, it is easy to feel lost amidst it all, with no sense of any belonging. I think that it is enough of a struggle to find meaning and purpose, and it is for that reason that I turn towards philosophy. Of course, it doesn't have all the answers.I would not really expect it to provide them, but at least it provides methods and ways of thinking for the many different aspects of human existence, as the arts do too. It can be about coping in the face of the deadend and wastelands.

I think that the experience of alienation is complex. It is about feeling rejected and about feeling lost, especially in the age of technology. We may have feelings of loss as individuals, and also feel that we do not count in the grand scheme of life. In some ways, such thinking is connected to our own psychology, and sense of lack of low self esteem and worth. But, in other ways, it is related to social and cultural perspectives and it may be that philosophy can help put this together. Perhaps, philosophy can help to save us.

Perhaps the struggles we have are an important part of our experiences. If we don't know pain, how can we know joy? It may be interconnected and that our struggles and confusion are an essential aspect of life experience.

In many ways, I think that life can be seen as a gift because I offers potentials for some kind of pleasure, appreciation and rich experience. I am not sure that life before, or after this life is essential. Perhaps, we should look towards the positives we can find, especially if this is all we have. It may be that life can be seen as a burden or a gift, and this may present a challenge to our thinking, but the answer at which we arrive may affect the quality of the life which we have.

We are indeed limited, looking beyond ourselves for meaning. But, such a view may contribute to our seeing of ourselves as if reality is from the top. We may be at the bottom, or the base of experience, but this may be the most accurate position, especially if we have no evidence of higher beings. So, it may be that the view from the lowly perspective of the human being is the best vantage point, as far as we able to conceive reality.

It is so easy to subscribe to crazy, shallow ideas, on the internet, whether it is conspiracy or otherwise. Right now, I am aware that I am competing with other threads, with topics of a similar nature. I probably write answers which are almost essays at times. It is likely that no.one wishes to read such answersm

Often, I feel like giving up in the expression of ideas. It is likely that my thread will fizzle and die, especially as a thread has been raised which is so similar to my own, and my own may be seen as inferior. Sometimes, I feel that I have reached a deadend myself. I think that the concept of the deadend and the wasteland are ones which are relevant for thinking about the personal life, as well as on the cultural level and the ongoing development of philosophical ideas.

It is so complex. We could ask what is anything?

I am sure that the answers offered by the arts may be seen as inadequate in some ways, but we could argue that poesis is a way of a certain expression of truth. But, of course, this works for some, and is only one way of expressing. I believe that the arts are important, but that is about individual expression and the cultural aspect of human existence. I do believe that in some ways we have reached a deadline or impasse, but it is probably a situation from which we can find our own way out.

As much as I believe that philosophy is important, it may be that philosophy has its limitations. I t may be that the best artists will leave the visions of many philosophers as extremely lacking and that philosophy will really become an abstract worldview, left behind in the aftermath of science, but with nowhere left to go.

I may start a thread based on my own reading of Harari's ideas, but I am certainly not in the position of thinking that scientists have the ultimate word on truth. I think that we are an extremely critical juncture in history. We have so much information available to us, coming from the sciences and the arts.

On the other hand, we are at a time in which there are so many aspects of history which are uncertain. We have the pandemic, climate change, and it is so hard to predict what is going to happen next. This presents a challenge for individuals and for humanity, if the collective term still applies too.

My own thread was formed in trying to look at philosophy and the way in which this can be reconciled and put together in an individual way and in terms of knowledge. Philosophy has been through postmodernism and the deconstruction of meaning. However, we can ask what will happen next. I am asking about the future of philosophy, but do see this as being interconnected with developments in history, culture and politics.

Yes, I think we are, but your thread is going in a different direction possibly, so it will be interesting to see what happens. You wrote your reply in the night when I was sleeping, and, then you created your own thread. I believe that you started your own thread and you may well come with a whole fresh perspective, which I cannot offer at all.

I have a certain amount of philosophy reading, ranging from existentialism, postmodernism, as well as questions of philosophies of our times. My own interest is more in the direction of the arts. But, I am concerned about the direction humanity is going, and how this is interconnected.

I don't know how much sense of humour you have but ever since we discussed the philosophy of the solidity of tables I keep recalling a certain scenario. I had a manager who ordered a table and I think that she got her metrics wrong. A van arrived with an enormous table, and it would have needed to be chopped up because it was so large that it could not have fitted into a room. So much for the philosophy of the solidity of tables...

I have looked at your idea again, and I am sure that it has so much to argue in its favour, but the question which I would have is how could such an idea have for thinking about reality, in terms of living. But, I am not saying that your answer is wrong, but simply that the nature of reality is a question which is probably connected to the meanings of individuals. In some ways, we may all ask this question and it can only be answered in a way which makes sense to us individually.

I am a little disappointed that you did not answer my reply because I thought that we may have so much to discuss. Instead, you have started a thread, which appears to be based on my own questions. Have you done this because you think my own thinking is inadequate, or are you coming from a different angle entirely?From your initial reply, I thought that we had some common ground to discuss.

As for myself, I am interested in the future of philosophy, and see this as being interconnected with the question of where humanity and culture are going, but I do understand if your own interest is very different from mine. I believe that we are at a crossroads, for better or worse, and I am trying to think about this, and how ideas will lead us through..

I am not disagreeing with you, but don't know how to interpret what you are saying. Perhaps, you or someone else can point to where this leads, because, at the moment, it is leading me to feel rather confused...

So, do you see painting as being part of the process of formulating philosophies? I most certainly do, because it seems to be such a complex mixture of looking beyond the objective to the subjective. We may have reached a crossroads in the history, but I am not at all certain that the spectrum beyond the objective and subjective has been met, even the intersubjective, especially in the realm of the arts.

In my own experience, answers to questions give a certain basis of knowledge. However, they often generate more questions, so it sometimes seems like an unwinding of coils. But, I am sure that some people get more definitive answers. It may also depend what we are looking for in the first place. Some may be looking for solutions and some may be looking for ideas for contemplation. In that sense, I think that the mindset of the questioner has a critical role in determining the answers.

I am having a bit of difficulty understanding your question, but find it to be extremely interesting. We have internal states and states which are connected to qualia. In most instances, hallucinations are distinct from usual experience because they are based on perceptions not evident to others. For example, if I swallow LSD or a packet of morning glory seeds I may experience a reality different from other people. However, I am not sure if this is altered perception or a new experience, in terms of qualia.

It is complicated, as evident in Huxley's writings, which are based on Bergson's ideas about 'mind at large.' It is involves qualia, but probably also involves questiona about the whole way in which consciousness works.

Your arguments seem good, but I am just wondering to what extent can we rely on physics? I think that it is extremely important, and do try to keep as up to date as I can, given that I don't really come from a physics background. I think that physics is extremely important, but even the ideas of physics need to be taken apart, like all ideas, and any perspective of knowledge. That is not to undermine the importance of the ideas but to approach all knowledge with a spirit of questioning rather than mere acceptance.

I do agree that our perspective of reality needs to go beyond the universal to the specifics. We may make generalisations, but we also need to understand and analyse the specifics and the unique as well. These specifics should probably be not treated as the irregularities, but as key aspects of any larger picture of reality, or else we will really have a gross caricature based on generalisations.

I am wondering about the conspiracy of woe and how that relates to the idea of the posturing of the Nietzschean nihilist. Meanings have been broken down, and often we stand alone, with no gods to turn to, but simply our own selves, and the reflection of self in human relationships.

Our own worldviews and philosophies are based in that context. We, as individuals are looking back on the history of ideas, with a view to moving forwards, breaking down, assimilating and looking towards future possibilities.

I do have one reflection about superstition based on my experience of working as a psychiatric nurse. I worked with a consultant psychiatrist, who was as far as I could see so based in 'the real world" in trying to point to delusions, almost outlawing any ideas which went against the norm. However, oneday, I happened to remark to him that the ward I worked in was so calm, and he got angry in a serious way, remarking, 'You will jinx it, saying that.' I did not challenge him, because he was so much more senior to me, but I was left wondering how people who seem so grounded in reason and avoidance of delusion, may often be prone to a certain amount of superstition.

Your reply is fantastic but I think it probably fits more into the thread I wrote about the future of philosophy and wastelands. Where is philosophy going, in connection with culture? I realise that all the themes are interrelated, and I am probably experiencing a bit of tangled threads syndrome on account of this. I am currently reading 'Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow ' by Yuval Noah Harari(2016), but we are looking not just at what is reality is, but what reality are we creating?

I am certainly not trying to argue against the use of reason and I do believe that it is extremely likely that irrationality is the worst enemy, for thinking about reality, and in the realities we create in real life.

I do think that for some people 'all that matters is money and work'. However, the future is so bound up with ideas. The book which I have begun reading today is 'Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow', by Yuval Noah Harari (2016). I am at an early stage in the book but it does seem interesting so far in thinking about knowledge for the future. I will just throw in one quote for you and others, for thinking about the future of ideas:
'Modern science and modern culture has an entirely different take on life and death. They don't think of death as a metaphysical mystery, and they certainly don't view death as a the source of life's meaning. Rather, for modern people death is a technical problem we can and should solve.'

The author's use of 'They' is a bit ambiguous but I think he means both science and people from our culture. However, what I see as being important here is the whole way in which the interpretation and understanding of ideas is important. This leads me to believe that philosophy is central to culture and interpretation of human experience. The author of the book was writing before the time of the pandemic, in which the emphasis in global thinking has been about fighting to solve death as a 'technical problem.'

I hope that my comment makes sense in relation to your comment, but what I am trying to argue is that the 'deep questions' are truly with as ever, and that philosophy can have a vital role, rather than being seen as obscure.

Your post highlights the way in which knowledge exists in the form of ideologies, as argued by Marx. In the past, philosophy and religion often were interlinked through the ideas of the Greeks being brought forward into the ideas of the church fathers, Kant and many others. Gradually, as science became more predominant philosophy lead the way in the understanding of secular ideas.

As it is now, scientists have made so much progress, but the arts and humanities have not been thrown aside. There are so many obvious divisions such as science vs art, religion vs secular, academic vs popular ideas. My own view is that philosophy needs to lead the way in sorting out all these dichotomies, rather than become as you say dumped into the 'strange and the curious", although, they will probably 'survive no matter what'. I think that neither you or I believe that philosophy will because extinct as such, but it is about on what level it will survive in the information age.

But, I do believe that it is also interrelated to the way history goes, and I think that we need the philosophers right now more than ever before...

What you are saying does tie into the discussion on my thread about philosophy and culture. I definitely don't think that emotion, sensation and intuition are not able to be abandoned because that would be about losing sight of what it means to be human. I do think that many people rely on novels and the arts, and, hopefully, philosophy will draw from these. So, it may come down to the juggling of models and metaphorical views. Hopefully, critical or smart thinking will help lead the way beyond the 'flight of fancy' as you describe what is happening, especially on websites.

I do plan to reply to your response on the other thread, but it will have to be later today. However, just one other point is that you raise the question of superstition and I think that is interesting, and perhaps it is the shadow of reason,and even the reason why people turn to sources such as clairvoyance and ideas of 'new age' philosophies.

I am all in favour of rationality. I just think that it is in the context of the spectrum and do think that Jung's model of knowledge is useful: sensation, feeling, reason and intuition. I think that we all have one which predominate and one or two which are undeveloped, with the idea of having them all functioning to some extent. I was once told by a supervisor that I am too much in 'my head' and in discussion with him, it appeared that I was more dominated by reason than any other function.

It does seem that since the enlightenment reason has been predominant. I think that it is a good thing because it is probably the strongest function, because it is able to bring critical thinking to emotion, intuition and sensation, but they should not be forgotten or ignored.

I only see the limit of knowledge as being a 'problem' if people fail to acknowledge the limits. I am not wishing to overthrow rational searching and thinking, but just believe that there is a danger of human beings becoming inflated with a sense of knowledge and overlooking uncertainty. Of course, Wittgenstein pointed to that so, hopefully, the philosophers won't get too caught up in the sense of all knowing, but those in other fields of knowledge may begin to mistake the map for reality itself.

I agree that we have to use our 'impressive brains' and not expect divine revelation'. The problem is that even rationality and knowledge are limited. We come back to the question interrelated to what is reality, which is, how do we know?

You speak of relationism as the way as a potential for knowing absolutes. I understand that to be about relationships and, really, it will just be yet another theory. We have models and theories but they are not reality itself.

But, I do wonder if you are looking at it more from the perspective of events and politics. Where does mental illness fit into this framework? Based on my experience of working in the mental health care system, so much of depression is bound up with feelings of despair, and apart from those who come into direct contact with the mental health system, so many more are being prescribed antidepressants and related drugs. In addition, even the experience of psychosis arises in the context of cultural breakdown of meaning.