I do agree that academic understanding of life does not really approach the experience of mysteries fully. However, I do think that reading the ideas of some who had certain insights is useful as some kind of training, because there is a danger of struggling, and feeling perplexed, alone.

I read your ideas about consciousness in the thread on metaphysics. They are interesting from what I read. What I am wondering is do your ideas on self organisation of consciousness have any implications for understanding the experiential level of consciousness and states of awareness?

Yes, it is interesting that the woman in the link saw differently. I do believe that we do all see a bit differently, depending on how we choose to develop our imagination. I have some experience of synthaesia naturally, especially of feeling that when I listen to music I can see sounds. This is meant to be connected to how the ears and eyes develop from the same nodule in the brain. I actually enjoy my bit of synthaesia because it means that I can lie in bed visualising images to music. I am also extremely interested in hypnagogic and hypnopompic dream states because I have many experiences of these, including some which are pleasant and some which are extremely unpleasant.

I do think that certain people, including those who have used or not used drugs, in thinking about the experiences they have in a very literal way. That is probably why they become psychotic. I discovered Jung as a teenager, which enabled me to think about my own borderline sleep experiences in a symbolic way. I sometimes wonder if I had not found Jung at this time whether I would have been unable to see this dimensions as being symbolic.

I think we base certain needs as 'necessity' sometimes by habit. For example, we often care about popularity and care about what others think of us because we are accustomed to do so, and socialised into thinking that this is really important. Our own life narratives are so bound up with the social aspects of existence, that it may be that many do not look for realisation beyond the social. Even though Maslow's theory suggests that we fulfill the scale upwards, I think that it is possible to bypass certain needs to some extent, although certain basics are more or less essential. It is extremely difficult to focus on self actualization and creativity, without food, or somewhere to live, although there have probably been some starving artists.

Generally, I think that self actualization and creativity are left out of the picture a fair amount for plenty of people. However, I am inclined to see it as essential. If I have no time or outlet for any creative expression, I struggle, but I have always found this to be part of life. I think that many see the arts as frivolous, or think of it as entertainment. I know so many people who don't read very much at all, and when I used to run creative art groups, I found that many adults see art as being more for children and, probably have not done any art beyond adolescence.

Your profile pic is the album cover to Pink Floyd's 'The Dark Side of the Moon, a fantastic album, with immense light and dark symbolism.


Light is so powerful physically and symbolically. I know that I find light so glaring that it hurts my eyes, especially when opticians shine a torch in my eyes, and on a bright sunny day.

What I am thinking about in response to what you are both saying is how light seems to be part of many spiritual experiences. We even have the term enlightenment. But, one aspect of this is how people who have near death experiences usually speak of seeing an intense light. Also, the way my religious studies teacher explained Paul's conversion to Christ's teachings, was that he was struck down by a vision of the light, and I do believe that many mystical or cosmic consciousness experiences refer to light. Even the idea of the dark night of the soul, within mysticism, are framed within reference to a journey towards the light.

Thanks for your lengthy, detailed replies, especially about Goethe. I believe that he was familiar with esoteric thought, and the question which I have written probably falls more into esoteric traditions. I understand that Jung, who drew upon light and darkness symbolism, was familiar with Goethe's ideas. I am pleased to see you bringing in Rudolf Steiner's view, because I have read some of his writings and you are the first person who I have seen mention him on this site.

I think that religious imagery draws on symbolism of light and dark in a major way. One aspect of this is in the mythological accounts of the fall within the Christian tradition. Lucifer was an angel of light, who misused the light and incurred his own fall, and the this led to the fall of the angels and the consequent fall of mankind.

Light symbolism is central to church architecture, including the gothic depiction of darkness. In contrast, stained glass windows are designed in such a way as to draw and reflect light.

I do have another aspect which I wish to say, but I am going to incorporate it in joint reply to Manuel, because it is also relevant to a post he wrote a short while ago.

Your statement, 'There is some light. There is a lot of darkness' may well be true, and that it may be that darkness is the background from which light appears, like the Gnostic demiurge, or void.

I was also thinking how Jung's idea of the shadow draws upon the symbolism of light.

Thanks for replying to my question. After I had written the thread, I was rather worried that people would think that I had lost the plot entirely.I am interested in the matter on a physical and metaphysics level, and how these may be possibly interrelated.

The reason why I began thinking of it yesterday was because I was reading a book on states of consciousness by Anthony Peake. He was discussion the role of symbolism of light in peak experiences. He was also speaking about how melatonin in the brain generates our body rhythms, in accordance with light. In particular, this is connected with the patterns of night and day, including sleep. I know some people who take melatonin supplements to help them sleep, especially when this has been disturbed after working night shifts.

I was reflecting on this and the way in which light is essential to life. What would it be like to live in complete darkness? The closest people get to this is in blindness, and from discussion I have had with a few blind people, they do see some light and darkness, in the form of shadows.

It is interesting how there is so much symbolism of light in songs. Also, this features so much in music arising from altered consciousness, including the music of the Beatles and Velvet Underground, eg 'White Light, White Heat.'

I am not getting impatient with your discussions at all. You have made good contributions. I created the thread with the aim of opening up any possible conversations which may arise. I am just extremely pleased that the thread is still going and it is the second longest one I have created so far, and I think that there is probably more mystery to be discussed. Really, I see my question as going back to the whole tradition of Greek mystery schools.

Your link idea looked interesting, but I am not sure if you typed it in properly, because I was not able to access it on my phone. Anyway, thanks for your many contributions to the thread.

I am aware that the question which I raised about light and darkness is probably extremely complex, but I am also asking about how we understand the visible and invisible aspects of life. How do we understand these interconnected aspects of our experience? Of course, I realise that the invisible and visible, light and darkness, are probably a spectrum, rather than a binary split, although we may perceive these as being opposites.

Of course, it is true that the needs of the person in Maslow's hierarchy, cannot be seen in isolation from the social ones. We are interconnected, and are involved in helping others fulfill the needs of others. Hopefully, those who have their basic needs fulfilled will not just be concerned about self in isolation.

However, there is a possible tension between the social aspects of existence and self actualization. It is interesting to think of the role in which the pandemic may have played for many people in this. Even though basic needs have not gone away people have spent more time alone, with more time and space for self actualization. I have never had so much time to myself since summer holidays at school, and wonder how I will ever go back to being part of groups again.

I think it is also interesting to think about the denial of instincts and the bodily side of existence in our current time. As far as I can see part of the Christian approach to life was that of seeing humanity as supreme over animals and nature. Christianity may have banned animal sports, and it has offered a picture of human beings as top of the hierarchy.

It seems likely that this approach has been carried through into the scientific worldview, and developed of technology. This has given rise to the exploitation of nature and the ecological crisis we now face, with climate change. As it is, many do not believe in God, or any supernatural power. Humanity, in many ways, stands before a godless abyss, struggling to know what to do next, in order to survive...

I agree that 'understanding what we are, how our mind works and then seeking how that relates to the broader world and others' is very important. However, I would dispute the idea of euphoria as 'mental masturbation', although there may be some people for whom that may be true. Possibly, many who use drugs to get high would be coming more from that perspective, although I don't make judgements about people using drugs, because the reasons may vary.

I think that people come with different motives. Personally, I would wish for peak experiences as a basis for inspiration for life. But one aspect which comes into the picture is the random nature of the peak experiences, because they cannot be conjured up by choice. In the experiences which I had which border onto peak experiences they came unexpectedly, even though I had read literature on them. Really, I began reading Colin Wilson's books and it was only at some point in my reflection upon them, that I realised that I had an interest in them. Generally, though, my own wish for such experience is connected to often feeling miserable, and wishing to overcome this.

I do think it the anthropology of religion, is an extremely interesting area. Apart from the question of ideas prior to God, or gods and goddesses, so much of religion is of a ritualistic nature, and the ancestors were probably revered more than in our own.

However, funeral rites do still play an interesting role around the notion of death. Yet, I guess some of this is connected more to personal sense of loss and our own bereavement. We probably have less rituals, although whenever I am using sanitizer in public places, I feel that it is like the new Holy water, which people cleanse their hands on entering or leaving church. Perhaps, secular rituals replace religious ones in some ways.

The question as to what we would do if we reached higher states of consciousness is interesting. Perhaps, we would create more art and write more, with better quality, as a result of the inspiration. Hopefully, it would generate greater care and compassion for others too.

Another aspect, though, is the opposition between doing and being. In Western society, there is so much emphasis on doing. I know many people who can't cope with not doing. Even if they are on a bus or train, they seem to need to be occupied, even if it by looking at a magazine or crossword. Also, even though it may not be actual 'doing', so many people spend hours watching television, almost to block out just 'being'. Really, I am quite happy to do nothing frequently, as I prefer the being mode, rather than constantly wishing to be 'doing' tasks or activities.

I didn't know that Telhard de Chardin saw categorised life in that way, but it seems similar to the theosophists. My own feeling is that I sometimes feel that objects around me seem alive, especially when my books and CDs fall over in my room. However, I wonder to see extent it is that our consciousness affects the objects, as if we are having an interaction with the energy fields. I definitely think we are within complex fields of energy, and Einstein stressed the participant observer role in experiments, so it would seem likely to me that the underlying principle extends to life in general.

I think that you make a good point when speaking of people who have different perceptions being, or viewed as unwell mentally. Obviously, there are those who really do have psychotic ideas and those who are just creative Bohemian. There is a whole spectrum, and many who speak of their peak experiences may be labelled as unwell, even though they are not. I am sure that many of the most creative people of all times, if they had lived in our times may have been detained in hospital and medicated against their will. They may not have created their greatest work at all.

I find that even beyond talking about peak experiences, a lot of people think that philosophy is peculiar. The people who live in the same house as me seem a bit puzzled about how I spend so much time reading and writing. As far as I can see they seem to spend most of the time on practical tasks. I am inclined to be completely minimalist over practical tasks, such as cooking. I probably get my room so untidy because I am spend so little time tidying. I also can't bear sport, playing or watching it. I think most people see me as an arty misfit.

One other matter, is the whole idea of outsider art, and that is about different perceptions, and of art created by people who have not been trained in art school. There is also the perspective of being on the edge in alternative music subcultures, ranging from goth, emo, punk and rap. I do think that music is often an expression of peak states of consciousness. I don't create music, but I do find that listening to it is a way of accessing certain states of consciousness. This may also connect to the shamanic quest. I definitely see John Lennon, whose lyrics you quoted, as well as so many of the great rock stars as being shamanic figures.

I definitely believe that we need to understand our own selves, and perspective, as a starting point for our higher individual and shared consciousness. Of course, how we understand peak experiences, does depend on our underlying perspective or worldview, with some people ranking them of being of more significance. However, I do think that many people do not even think about such matters at all. If anything, I have found that on some people look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but do like really place much emphasis on how he focuses on peak experiences.

I am definitely suggesting that it is possible to see miracles in all things, as Blake spoke of seeing heaven within a grain of sand. I do also believe that it is possible to experience some elements of the miraculous even amidst unpleasant experiences, because it is about states of awareness really. That is probably how artists can transform or transmits suffering into creative work.

I do think that being present can in itself be a peak experiences, but I am also thinking of how meditation can lead to transcendent states. I do think that this relates to what Gopi Krishna, and some others have spoken of, as the awakening of kundalini consciousness. However, that is a process which probably should occur naturally, rather than by conscious effort. Also, it is something which can involve or result in some great imbalances, so it is not something to be thought about, or spoken of, lightly.

Perhaps, you are forgetting that I am not talking about my own life, which I have not disclosed, because it is a public forum. I am sharing the ideas about peak experiences for others to think about, with no set agenda of my own, but presenting ideas, with openness towards their discussion as an aspect of philosophy discussion.

Of course, there are no shortcuts and we cannot go beyond the limitations of who we are, and what we may become..But, I do believe that it is worth us trying, even though we can probably never touch upon the heights which some of the most enlightened individuals have reached. It would seem like a swindle if we are only able to think of settling for the mundane, and nothing more.

Obviously, we lack Shopenhaurer's genius but, perhaps, through greater understanding, we can make a certain headway in penetrating beyond the superficialities of our experiences. it may takes us time, and the results fall far short of the geniuses, towards whose insights we may aspire, but it may count for something, even if only on a subjective level of aspirations and imaginations of touching upon the heights of transcendent experiences.

There may not be any outward criteria for thinking about effort put into meditation and other practices. It may be that we are empirical practitioners, who have to wait and see...

Probably, we just have to be able to see that It is being done badly, using our critical awareness.

Perhaps, the problem is that the word, physics, in itself has a certain powerful influence in out thinking.

I certainly hope that peak experiences go beyond entertainment. As much as I love music and the arts, I do hope that this dimension of experience is connected to some source beyond our usual experiencesm

I have read your post, and it is extremely interesting. What it makes me wonder about is just how death stands as an inevitable prospect we face. We fear hell, and may hope for heaven, and how much is that embedded in our thinking. I am not trying to be critical of anyone who believes in heaven, or hell but merely stand back, thinking about of how such ideas affect us, as perceived truths , and the foundations of such ideas in our philosophy and daily life experiences.

The question of simplicity of truth, or otherwise, arising in meditation and other practices, opens many areas for considering of experience. I am certainly not wishing to point to any as being superior above others. However, I am thinking about states of consciousness as an important, and possibly area which has been a bit neglected in thinking of the wider questions of human experiences and existence.

It may be true that certain outsiders are in danger of presenting their ideas as absolute. This is a big problem as we read the writings of particular writers of importance, and I don't think that there are any easy answers, because individuals may have reached certain degrees of awareness. These degrees of awareness are open to questions, as are the psychologists of a writers, so, we may be left in the position of thinking, in the midst of the critical scrutiny, in mainstream rendition of ideas.

You may think that I am opposing you, in what I am saying against reductive explanations, and I am not really trying to do that, because I come with some history of eye disorder. A few years ago I had headaches, after a period of stress. I went to an optician who picked up some underlying retinal disorders. I was referred to an eye clinic, and given a possible diagnosis of Coates disease. I researched this, which is a genetic disorder, rare but most common in males under 10 years old. I am an adult, so was rather puzzled, and I have been discharged as my eyesight is stable.

I am interested in what the eyes say about the brain and the mind, but I think that it is complex because the retina is part of a brain.I wonder if the eye problems which were picked up were connected to all the reading and thinking which I do. The eyes and the brain are part of the apparatus of our thinking, and perhaps they become overwhelmed and overloaded at times, but perhaps this needs to be seen in a wider scope of mind.
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Thanks, that is reassuring because it does seem that in many ways the philosophical questions seem to becoming mere questions of language. It almost appears as if philosophy is like an appendix to what is seen as facts, and the absolute truth, as proclaimed with philosophers who are coming from the domain of the physical sciences.

I appreciate your quote from Schopenhauer, and I have managed to download a copy of his, 'The World as Will and Representation', which is one of my priorities in my reading list. I certainly believe that he had a great mind.

My own thread may be far too obscure to be taken seriously on a philosophy forum, because it is about the development of our own consciousness, and I am not sure that many see this as being of much importance in the climate of our times. It appears to me that we are being seen more as numbers, rather than individuals with ideas, as the spectrum of thinking becomes a mere shadow of science, and, most especially, neuroscience. It all seems to be about reductive explanations, and I may be seen as ridiculous for thinking about peak experiences, as being of any significance.

The question of whether Jung was a mystic is one that has been debated a lot by many writers. He disliked the idea being applied to himself. Part of the complexity of the question is because Jung wrote so much and, from different angles. He did contextualise his thinking in relation to instincts, but, in many ways, also within Western and Eastern ideas of religion. Personally, I can see why some people see him as a mystic, but I prefer not to put him in a neat box, because he was a very diverse thinker.

It is interesting that Aquinas thought that it would be better to be in hell than not exist at all. I think that I would prefer not to exist. I remember when I was growing up that someone suggested that hell would actually be about not existing at all. It was the first time that I ever considered the possibility of nothingness, and it struck me as a better option, although I was not entirely sure.

However, the whole idea of fear of death is so central to the ideas which we develop about it. The Egyptians had complex beliefs and rituals surrounding death. They saw it about journeying towards otherworlds, and it does seem that most religious thinking goes back to the Egyptians.

So much of culture itself is based around death, and the ceremonial rights. Perhaps the search longevity in Western culture is connected to a widespread loss of belief in an afterlife. Even within the time of the pandemic, the underlying belief behind the surface is about the need to fight death, with death being viewed as the enemy. I wonder how different this would have been in the last century when people were laying down their lives for their country. That was more in the context of a more widespread culture of Christianity. Even within Islam, as far as I understand, there is a belief that the terrorists, who get killed themselves in the attacks which they carry out, go straight to heaven. So, the views people have about death have profound implications for the way people live.

Your answer seems to be in response to mine, and I will say that I would certainly say that the holocaust was evil. Here, I am thinking that we are using the word evil, in its sense of the devastation caused, rather than in just the conventional moral sense, although they are interconnected.

If you are framing your thinking, in the context of Jung's view of the shadow, which is a very complex topic, he is suggesting that we need to work on ourselves in such a way that aspects of ourselves, which are conventionally viewed as evil, are integrated so that they are less toxic. An obvious example would be that we need to cope with feelings of anger in ways which are not harmful.

I think that great harm can be done in telling people that they are evil. I think that your quote on the shadow may be taken from Jung, you do not say.I am not sure that it is simply that evil needs to be defined, but more considered on a critical level. Part of the problem may be that some people may have sought to define evil, and in doing so have projected it onto others. It can be too easy to see the evil in Sadaam Hussein and the politicians etc.

When I say that harm can be done through telling people that they are evil, I am thinking of the way people have been labelled as sinners, and how many, especially Catholics and others brought up in certain religious backgrounds, have grown up with guilt complexes.The consideration of what is evil is extremely complex. However, if you are speaking about Jung's idea of the shadow, I think that this needs to be seen more about potential for destruction, towards self or others.

Definitely Calvin's perspective is important, and when I questioned my religious beliefs it was with a view to how religious teachings can be used for political means. The fear of hell can function on that level and Marx pointed to the role religion plays in maintaining oppression. However, as you suggest, Hegel pointed to the need to know the 'Absolute', so these need to be juggled in our thinking and exploration.

Generally, sociologists have pointed to the potential biases within news, mainly due to the way in which those who own the news companies have a role in manufacturing it. So, there may be underlying slants, and some newspapers are biased towards particular viewpoints and politics.However, we need to be aware of the news, so need to access it.

Another option, rather than having a set of rules, is to come with a certain amount of critical awareness and, by looking at various sources. There can be so much sensation in news. Also, it is about the aspects which affect us. I find that if I watch too news on television or look at too much news on my phone, I get stressed out. c We are now in the situation of fake news being generated too. But, all news comes with the biases of journalists, and underlying politics. So, perhaps the main thing is to not take it all at complete face value realising that there may be more going on behind the scenes, of headlines, and that is worth trying to dig deeper than the mere surfaces.

Your long entry is good. When you think of the brain and the mind as you describe, it seems like the brain is a transmitter. I am not saying that you are wrong. I am in favour of simply trying not mystify consciousness. It is probably that we are so aware of our own stream of consciousness. Perhaps it is our own egotistical attachment to the idea of a 'self', and, I believe, that the Buddhists challenge the idea of there being a self, as an independent entity.

The idea of a separation between body and mind has been at the heart of the conundrum about life after death. In particular, within Christianity, some people have thought that the soul was immortal, whereas others have thought that would life would not take place until a resurrection at the end of the world. So, really, the mind/body problem was a dispute which was central within Christianity.

Alongside this, there was the whole question of whether there is an invisible realm. Some people have believed in spirits, angels and devils. I know people who claim to have seen ghosts. So, generally there is a longstanding history of people being fascinated by the possibility of a nonmaterial dimension, which has appeared shrouded in mystery.