It is interesting to think about the extent to which thinkers, especially the existentialists were concerned with the emotions of depression. Nietzsche certainly was troubled in his mental health.

The nature of depression and despair overlap but are a little different as well. Some of it may come down to cultural assumptions and choice of language. In the context of mental health, which is my work background, the terms depression and suicidal are common. Depression is spoken of so much and GPs prescribe antidepressants routinely. Suicidal thoughts and suicide risk are spoken of so much but despair rarely. I have not come across anyone diagnosed with clinical despair, only clinical depression.

Nevertheless, a state of feeling and thinking about hopelessness does exist and it may not involve actual suicide or other features of depression, such as inability to function. In that way, depression and despair point to a whole spectrum of mental states and an yaccompanying philosophy of life, including nihilism or the transpersonal thinkers ideas of the 'dark night' as a means of transformation.

Yes, rumination can be extremely problematic. There may be different sources of a philosophy of despair. In some respects, a philosophy of despair of the angry young men can be narcissistic, and revolve around image. I don't think that I am coming from this perspective currently, but may have done so at some stages in the past.

My own experience of despair is mostly bound up with difficulties in meeting real life goals. It is hard to know to what extent thinking or other approaches work. To some extent, cognitive behavioral therapy approaches involve trying to find more helpful ways of thinking. The negative self talk can be worked with and the parallels between CBT and a philosophy of Stoicism are strong. However, rational thinking alone may be not enough to work with the emotional aspects of despair. Intuition and involvement of both the right and left side of the brain may be needed for a healing state of consciousness.

I believe that Jung once said something to the effect of 'I live in my deepest hell and from that, I can fall no further'. Here, Jung may have been speaking of embracing despair rather than suppressing or repressing it. In that way, living with despair and even the harshest memories or inner'voices' may be about embracing the darkness.

Even though I see despair in itself as negative I am inclined to wonder if it part of the journeying to higher states of consciousness. Of course, it may not be simple, but it may be that the learning curve, including experiences of being a 'failure', may lead to greater wisdom and understanding, if navigated well, as in the process of individuation.

I wonder if despair is a result of decline because when everything is going so well it may not occur to one to feel despair, The nature of despair may come in the aftermath of high expectations and goals and being disappointed. It is hard to know whether the initial hope was the problem in the first instance. In that respect, it is hard to know if false hope was the problem or the sense of being defeated leading to the feeling and thoughts of being at a deadend.

It is true 'that you cannot lose what you never had' and it is possible that some aspects of life are not appreciated until you lose them. For example, when I had a job I used to moan about getting up early in the morning. Now, that I can't seem to get any job and am struggling with rent arrears I realise what I have lost.

Loss can be such a major source of despair, from broken romances to loss of others through death. The whole process of bereavement is important and psychoanalytic thinkers speak of an inability to grieve as a source of later problems.

The arts in general thrive on people living with despair. One book which I found useful was 'The Outsider', by Colin Wilson. He looks at suffering and creativity through the writings of the existentialists and others, including Van Gogh. He quotes what are believed to be Van Gogh's last words, 'The misery will never end.

The distinction between the highs and the lows is so strong in music, including Jim Morrison and others too. The search for the numinousity of joy often results in the opposite state. Then; there is the quest to escape from the prisons of despair.

You may have a point about physical exercise and going outside is probably important too. I know that my bloods showed severe vitamin D deficiency a couple of times, including in a heatwave. As someone who is into contemplating life I am inclined to spend too much time indoors, ruminating. There is a danger of going into black holes in the process.

Thinking of your ideas on mind created reality, I do wonder about the role of mind in leading to stated of despair. It may be that each of us creates one's own heavens and hells through nursing our own inner demons. I wonder about the role of the subconscious mind in self sabotage and in the nature of experiences in the physical world. In other words, do the dramas in life arise on account of subconscious aspects of will. For example, when my bed was being attacked by bed bugs I wondered if they symbolised my inner demons. However, I don't wish to end up sounding like Harry Potter.

I also do wonder about the role of pain and suffering in life and how even despair may be transformational. It may lead to deeper searching. The issue may be about being broken by despair, or a means of enlightenment. The difference may be a fine line and may even shift between the two.

I will try to look into Nussbaum' s philosophy as I had not come across it. The idea of emotions based upon a thinking creature's evaluation does seem important, as the phenomenology of emotions, including despair.

One aspect which I see as an area of distinction here is the difference between despair about one's own life situation and that of other people or lifeforms. In its basic clinical aspects of depression, the thwarting of one's own needs, especially the basic physiological ones and social ones may be intrinsic. On another level, of self actualisation, higher needs may come into play. So, it may be that a person looks out beyond the immediate sphere and sees the needs of others and, these may crossover with altruistic concerns.

Here, the basic functions of human life may come into play in perspectives of pessimism and optimism. In particular, there is the quandary of one's own future and the survival of the human race and planet. So, feelings of despair may occur about one's own life or further. I wonder about this interplay and to what extent can egoism be a starting point for going beyond one's personal concerns. In other words, to what extent is the idea and emotions of despair different when focused upon personal or artistic concerns or wider ones about how humanity and the planet?

The relationship between nihilism and optimism may vary so much, and may depend on material conditions. If may be so much easier to endure ideas of negativity in physical comfort and wealth than in conditions of poverty, austerity and physical suffering.

The relationship between the inner, psychological aspects of happiness and unhappiness and ideas of despair and nihilism may involve many variables. There is the question as to whether states of mind and intention have a subconscious role in the nature of manifest experience. So, to what extent do pessimism and optimism have a determining role in the conjuring of our own life experiences and circumstances? Alternatively, to what extent do our experiences and circumstances determine our philosophical outlooks?

I am unsure to what extent despair is a state of mind, relating to attitude and mood, or a philosophical point of view or perspective. It is that question that which has led me to ask the thread question. In particular, I feel despairing about the state of the world. In thinking about this, I am unsure to what extent this is based on my own life circumstances and what I see on a larger scale. Here, it may be a complex clouding in the perspective of suffering. It is in such respects that I ask about despair: to what extent is it an emotional framework or a rational evaluation of suffering in life?

The relationship between nihilism and despair is complex, especially as it may be possible to be a 'happy nihilist'. Pleasure may be possible in the midst of the most bleak views of life.

Nevertheless, I wonder to what extent is the opposite true. If one is living in the harshest of conditions, including poverty and war, how does a philosophy of optimism stand? Are philosophies which encourage 'hope' and 'positivity' amidst harsh outer circumstances, mere ideologies?

I am not sure that any of this is simple, especially as the juxtaposition between outer and inner suffering is constructed subjectively. Despair, and hope, are constructed in subjective and intersubjective ways; this may mean that the spectrum between hope and despair is a continuum. The various points may arise in subjective aspects of the construction of the largest picture, and, attitudes of despair and pessimism may be developed in cultural contexts, as well as in the vast array of subjective psychological states of mind.

I wonder to what extent despair is a temperament or a philosophical perspective? Also, to what extent is it a chosen viewpoint or one arrived at through outer experience of suffering?

I am certainly not an advocate of the philosophy of despair but wonder how such a state stands in adversity. There is so much suffering and conflict in the world, through poverty, war and conflict, as well as interpersonal issues. So, I wonder about pessimism and optimism in this respect. It may be about states of mind, including moods, but, may also involve cognitive framing of how practical life works.

I was replying to your post, but think that I pressed in the wrong place, so the previous post was my reply to you.

Thank you for your reply and I have not come across the ideas of Martha Nussbeim. You mention pessimism, and this may be important in juxtaposition with optimism. This may be a fine line, and involve wishing for the best but being prepared for the worst. This may be difficult to achieve, and could even result in the opposite, of preparation for the best, but fearing the worst, and how this may become manifest. Fear may in itself have such a strong self-fulfilling prophecy. Also, beyond the issues of religious ideas, there is the question of whether fear or faith are equal or, which is stronger in the development of human will and willpower?

You also mention the Stoics, and such a philosophy of self understanding and, discipline may be extremely important. In particular, there may be significant parallels between the ideas of Stoicism and cognitive behaviour therapy.

I am inclined to think that 'hope' is extremely important, as opposed to despair. Some may see hope as unhelpful in 'Pandora's Box'. However, this may be questionable. If all hope is gone, what is left? Are those who suggest that hope is unimportant querying mere philosophy ideals, as opposed to the raw aspects of life?

Generally, despair may be a 'black hole'. The practical and psychological realities, and going beyond, may be complex. Nevertheless, to deny the 'tool' of hope may be nothing less than becoming engulfed by the power and idea of despair.

My understanding of 'Thus Spoke Zarathurstra' is that it involves a process of 'waking up' , beyond the everyday conventions of 'robotic' functioning. This includes conformity to religious perspectives. I see this work of Nietzsche as signifying the depths of any genuine quest within philosophy, which involves all questioning of conventions, religious, or probably, all ideologies. The book explores this, especially in the form of metaphorical understanding.

I am not sure where the philosophy of badminton fits into religion exactly. However, aggression in philosophy, like in sports may come into play in thinking. If anything, the human tendenct towards aggression, and competition as aspects of human motivation may be essential in understanding the nature of risk.

Differentiating these as quantifiable or qualitative factors may be an ongoing area of psychology and philosophy. The interplay of philosophical ideas and the aspects of human psychology may be an extremely important area for an understanding of potential consideration of the nature of risks in human and all aspects of life.

Happy Christmas to you too!

It is hard to know how psychological comfort fits into risk assessment. It anything, what I saw in healthcare was often based on covering oneself legally. This is important, as even medical notes are legal documents . Nevertheless, the problem is that it can become an exercise in which inspections are elevated beyond all proportion. Often, inspections are crucial for funding of services. But, it can get in the way of the genuine science or art of risk assessment. That is what may end up becoming a tick boxes approach, as opposed to the emphasis on human life and death concerns.

Some people, including those who break the law, do come out so well, while the cautious often do badly. So much in life does seem to be a gamble and it may be that intuition is a guiding factor in seeing beyond risk, towards positive manifestation in life.

Yes, I do remember that you have a medical background because you also know me as Jackdaydream. What you are saying about seeing bad to worse makes sense with regard to thinking of risks. It is about preparing for the worst possible scenarios. I was inclined to think that way when working in healthcare but found that a lot of people found that approach to be a little negative. But with many health scenarios, including mental health ones, often disasters often have roots which can be traced back but often are missed. The problem may be that often human beings prefer to be blind to potential problems, with some kind of optimism that things will turn out better as opposed to worse.

During the time of Covid there did appear to be a levelling out of wealth and poverty. This was interconnected with the way in which everyone was vulnerable to getting ill and economics as was known seemed to collapsing. At the time, I believed that it might usher in a new economics of equality.

However, in England the divide Is so much more than I have ever known, almost heading back to Victorian times. Families are being made homeless on a daily basis and more and more people are needing to resort to food banks. There is even a danger of the food banks collapsing. Of course, the situation of England is compounded by Brexit as well. Previously, many in the USA and other countries may have seen England as advantaged due to the NHS and the welfare state but this system is on the verge of collapsing. All policies and risk assessments are made in the light of this.

So much also may be going on behind the scenes of the news headlines throughout the world. If anything, there may be a fogging of risks or leaders not knowing what to do especially over ecology and climate change.

The point about science not being the foundation of policy is an important one. If anything it is the opposite way round. To some extent, experimental evidence can be developed to support policy aims.

The Covid evidence base was tricky because it was a new element. I hate to admit to a little bit of conspiracy theory but I do think that on some level the time of lockdown was used as a basis for bringing in policy changes, in England anyway. So much has changed in a way which seems to be about making the gulf between the rich and the poor greater.

Even with climate change, there are political aspects. A large problem of risk assessment was that it underplayed the speed of climate change. Also, the depletion of oil resources is central and the politics of this comes into play and it is likely that research and policy is likely to be more aimed at the needs of the elite.

The inaccuracy of risk assessment is part of the problem and how measures are taken on the basis of information with inaccuracies. For example, when working in nursing, suicide risk was assessed but it was not accurate. The particular problem here is that it is all assessed on the basis of past action and what a person says. The person who is really planning it is unlikely to tell anyone. Part of this complexity, is that the person knows that measures such as being detained in hospital are likely.

People are harder to assess than factors in the physical world. Of course, it is important to assess, especially in mental health and forensic psychiatry and the issue may be to do it as fully and carefully as possible.

Even with factors in the physical environment risks are not always straightforward because of so many variables.


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I would like to try all of these approaches and I have even found that tea tree oil helps..I try to approach the problem from different angles.

What I am finding is that the landlord and other flatmates are taking such a one dimensional angle. I haven't seen any bed bugs since the last spray but as one upstairs says he has seen a couple he is asking for another spraying of pesticide gasses. I fear that if I don't comply I will be kicked out of the place.

I think that creativity is needed and it is almost like working with inner demons.

.The assessment of benefits entitlement are so complex, which so many variables. I guess that the way in which I see the problem in this and, so much of social policy, is that risk and its assessment is seen so much as a moral imperative. The word 'risk' conjures up so much weight, which may have been ranked according to moral duties and human rights previously. So, the issues of risk, as in clear objective possible outcomes, is important but it may need to be understood in terms of specific value systems in which it is developed.

I am aware that you are in Australia and the politics of which I am speaking is in England. I do not know how ideas of politics and risk management are global.

Part of the way in which I see the idea of risk management is that in some circles, it came to be used as almost an ethical imperative. Suicide risk carried so much weight. In the politics of risk assessment this seems to be turned upside down. The assessment processes for benefits has been found to be a contributory factor in some case scenarios of suicide.

In this way, risk assessment hinges upon values of what is important. The idea of risk can be used in such varying ways, but as a powerful rhetoric. The idea of risk is dependent upon what and who is seen as important to be valued. It could be the needs of the mentally ill, the poor, or the rich and powerful. In this way, the idea of 'risk' can be a sweeping moral rhetoric in philosophical justification, depending upon power allegiances and sympathies.

The idea of risks, including food and drink may be important. In particular, alcohol is seem as a specific threat to health. In contrast, sugar, while seen as a potential problem, may not be seen in the exact same way. Both alcohol and sugar pose risks to health, but this evaluation may be clouded by value judgments of how one should live.

I also wonder about how lifeforms, including human beings accommodate and evolve in accordance with risks. It could be that risks, and the experience of painful suffering are triggers for cultural and personal evolution. That is because adversity involves a motivation leads to innovation, as the key factor of creativity in adaptation, including human thinking.

The idea of risk is bound up with ideas of benefits and hazards. It may be where the area of practical and theoretical collide. This is because theory translates into practice in life and human affairs. Risk management may be quantifiable but it may also be qualitative, as bearing upon the nature of human experience itself. The quantifiable and qualitative aspects of life are not entirely inseparable. This may be a conundrum of risk assessment, especially where it involves quantification as a key component of assessment of risk.

In your post you refer to checklists of risk, which may be so variable. In some ways, the checklists may be useful if they go far enough, but if they are mere tick boxes they may be used in organisations as a means of covering potential legal claims.

However, your post also covers the understanding of risk in general life, which may be an aspect of life and philosophy which is not considered. Every act in life and human choice is bound up with some logical or intuitive aspects of assessment of risks. The entire philosophy of utilitarianism looks at potential ends of action.

This does involve aspects of life from sexual promiscuity to aspects of economics. It is involved predictability and the nature of uncertainty, and the possible juxtaposition of both. This makes risk so complex, in practical and ethical choices in human life, judgment and wider aspects of decision making.

Sorry for the late response, but I do wonder about the way in.which risk is seen in relation to death. While working in psychiatry, this did seem to be the concern. However, since that time, I have seen risk used in differing ways. In particular, risk assessment is being used in England for assessing fraud amongst benefit recipients..This is despite some evidence of suicides based on those who have gruelling risk assessments. So, I would argue that the underlying basis of risk assessment is bound up with political values and biases..

For anyone else who is experiencing bed bugs, I am also wondering about the actual risk of harm of bed bugs versus treatments for it. At the present time, I have been expected to clear my room for treatments four times. My room has been sprayed with chemicals that white earth. I cannot refuse this or I may be evicted. However, I am left wondering about the actual harm.of bedbugs or the chemical pesticides to treat them.

In recent weeks, I have felt physically unwell, which could be due to many factors. However, I do wonder about the chemical pesticides used to treat bed bugs and how such treatments are imposed. Does anyone else have experience of such measures being imposed, especially the benefits and harms? I actually regret telling my landlord of bed bugs. They are unpleasant but I am not sure whether they are lesser 'evils' than the chemicals used, especially as the bugs are becoming able to resist the chemicals. Any thoughts?.Metaphorically, I see bed bugs as the newest form of 'demons' to be combatted.

The assessment of nuclear war risk is critical and I would argue that there is the danger of inaccuracies. I understand that there was an incident, during the Cold War, when there was a message of nuclear attack that almost led to a full-scale nuclear war. The incident was not disclosed at the time but, here, is a clear issue of inadequacies of risk assessment.

It is not that I am trying to suggest that risk assessment should not occur, but that often occurs in a shallow way. To a large extent, all life judgments involve risk assessment
insofar as they involve calculation of outcomes. It is just that the rhetoric often misses the full intricacies, with the many unknown variables.

There is an inflated sense of belief in the power to measure risk, especially with technology, including artificial intelligence. From what I have seen, reliance on such technology often results in gross errors. It is likely that genuine risks are underplayed rather than overplayed.

It's good to interact with you again. It definitely seems that emotions have immense power. I know that I get fairly instant reactions to life events. They seem to determine the quality and nature of experience itself. I even find that I see differently and hear differently according to mood. Music seems to sound differently if I am sad or happy.

Childhood experiences probably play an extremely significant role in forming the core frames of emotions. There does appear to be a link between childhood trauma and mental illness, including PTSD and many other issues. Stress at all times is a major trigger for becoming mental ill, but the first years may be at the core of emotional life and defense mechanisms. It is likely to be linked to the plasticity of the brain.

With healing, there are so many approaches. Some people found it in religion and this may go back to the shamanic aspects of the origins of religion. So much was projected outside onto the gods. In secular society, so much understanding is based on understanding of biochemistry. Of course, the neurochemical aspects are important, such as Serotonin, but, often, chemical treatment alone is often one dimensional. It can be complimented by the talking therapies and the creative arts. The arts therapies make this connection and the arts may involve a form of transformation. Shamanism and religious experiences were a means of this for the ancient people. A lot of people who are not religious transform emotional suffering into healing for oneself and others, like the role of the shaman, often understood as the 'wounded healer. '

I agree that emotions are hardwired and have a determining aspect. It does relate to issues of free will, although I am inclined to think that humans can achieve some autonomy of not being completely dictated by emotions. But it is tricky and most of the time we controlled by emotions, and being able to break through the hardwiring may be rare exceptions. It may be about higher emotions overriding the lower ones.

Yes, will is important as there is a source of motivation and this includes emotion and intuition. Freud spoke of the life and death instincts, as Eros and Thanatos and such a perspective is bound up with emotions and the complex dynamics of mental processes, including both conscious and subconscious aspects. Will may be unconscious and related to the basics of bodily functioning, such as in the psychosomatic nature of illness and health.

Your post makes many important points. What I find important in what you are saying is in relation to subjectivity. The interplay between sensory experiences and basic ideas is an essential aspect of human understanding.

The discrepancies in values between sensory experiences in its many forms, in contrast to ideas and ideals may be an ongoing development of philosophical understanding.

However, this is a focus on the inner aspects of experience of emotions, which may be a little different from emotional expression. Human beings may edit emotions into what is acceptable. That may be fine in some ways, but challengable when emotions deviate from the norm. One aspect of this, especially in relation to the formation of values, may involve an underlying judgmental understanding of emotions. This may problematic when emotions are cultivated according to ideals.

It could be asked, what are senses exactly? They may be the physiological aspects of emotion and may go beyond the basic five senses of perception. I wonder to what extent does emotion occur as arising from sensory experiences or preceding it.Here, it may involve feedback loops, which demonstrate the complexity of physicalism and valued ideas. The generation of values may be a critical aspect the core development of emotions.

Based on your reading of Feldman Barrett, I wonder about the reductive aspects of emotions. They may be broken down to the physiological basics or related to aspects of motivational ideas and goals. This tension is an underlying aspect of the nature of emotional experience, raising questions about the dichotomy of values, as aspects which go beyond conceptual ideas.
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I think that one of the reasons why I have raised the topic is about the potential for control of the passions. Nevertheless, it may be complicated in the sense of the interplay between the expression of emotion and control. This may be where it becomes a hard problem, relating to the hard problem of consciousness, especially the chemical-electrical processes. In relation to yogic practices, one important area may be to what extent does will , as an aspect of motivation, guide the processes of emotion?

This involves different area of understanding of emotions and living with them in life experience. In thinking of adepts, I wonder to what extent can the ideas of emotion, including its variable expression and suppression, may be intrinsic aspects of the ongoing evolutionary processes, for human beings in particular. The critical philosophy issues here is the possible ways in which emotions, going back to the basic routes of sensory experiences are based on gut reactions or ideas of emotions, as desirable or undesirable aspects of the inner experiences of human consciousness?

I definitely think that CBT points to the way in which presuppositions involve sense making. Concepts play a significan role and this is where emotions are different in animals than in humans, especially with language as a basis for reflection upon emotions. Values are significant here and ethics may be as much emotionally based as rational, or a dialogue between the two. There is the case of the 'monkey mind' and after rationalism people may strive for rationality. However, emotions as in early conditioned values, which may go back before an adult vocabulary has been achieved. Even amongst adults, the nature of articulating beliefs into language.

With the notion of enlightenment, or insight, it may be a transcendent state which goes beyond both emotion and rationality, with intuition being a potential bridge. It may go beyond control of emotions to the way of transformation of awareness, such as expressed in the 'dark night of the soul' preceding higher states. It may be about integration and wisdom in living with various emotional possibilities.

I am aware that a main principle within cognitive behavioural therapy is that a person is not disturbed by experiences but by the thoughts of the experience. I have wondered about this a lot and find it useful for going beyond blaming others. It is so easy, with upsetting experiences to blame another rather than recognising the seat of experience in terms of one's own sensitivity.

Nevertheless, the big philosophical debate between the frameworks of CBT and the psychodynamic approach may be the understanding of emotions. The CBT approach emphasises automatic thoughts and I am sure that is important but what thought is may be complex. It includes ruminations but it is not simply about verbalised thoughts but other aspects of sensory processing, including images. It is possible to become more aware of such aspects, such as within art therapy. However, there is so much which is subliminal, involving the body at a primal level. This may explain why something emotional reactions a person experiences after an experience may be different from the way a person imagines they would feel.

This may be where emotions are a particularly complex area and may be difficult to be translated into words in some cases. This is an area where there needs to be more dialogue between cognitive behavioral and psychodynamic thinking. One concept which I have found interesting in psychoanalytic theory is that of the 'nameless dread'. Also, Bion's understanding speaks of different layers of mental processing.