Oh, I am talking of the I Ching. Initially, when I read your thread I thought that The Tao de Ching was another book, and then I came to the conclusion that your thread was about the I Ching. So I feel extremely foolish. I have not read the Tao de Ching, in that case.

Yes, I will try not to worry too much about totalitarianism, but I do fairly frequently, because that is my disposition. But what strikes me when I have made remarks to people in conversations recently about totalitarianism, is that many people don't seem to be perturbed by it. I think that we may be moving towards a culture of indifference.

Obviously the whole area of mysticism in Hinduism and Buddhism is a very complex one and it is not as if I am from one of these traditions. I just read widely, and there is probably some truth in the common notion that a little knowledge is a bit dangerous. So, I will wait to see what happens in the thread as it so new.

Thanks for the link to The Tao de Ching. I may put one latecomer entry, probably on Hexagram 23. I often used to get that hexagram, or it might not have been that I really got it more than other ones, but it always used to stand out for me.

I am not talking about the kind of Asian 'mystical' stuff you are talking about portrayed in the media. I am speaking of serious meditation practices, such as those within Hinduism, Buddhism, or Sufism . I am also thinking of the whole tradition of esoteric Christianity. However,it may be that you are not wishing for such areas to be explored in the thread you have created, and are just wishing to explore what the idea.

You say that, 'Man makes his own hell in the world'. I do agree that many of the atrocities in history seem to reflect that. The question which I see is how can we act differently collectively, to try to climb out of the hells we create, and to stop creating them?

I have read the Tao Te Ching and looked at the lengthy thread on it, but did not participate because I don't have a copy of it currently. I am interested in Taoism, especially as developed by Jung. There is also Capra' book, 'The Tao of Physics' which was important in the leading the way in the exploration of mysticism arising from the findings of the new physics developed by Einstein.

I am wondering why you resist the idea of mysticism as being about heightened states of consciousness? I do not believe that we are able to touch upon these easily but I do see mystical states as being part of this spectrum. Maurice Bucke's book, 'Cosmic Consciousness' looks at specific individuals who reached illuminated states of consciousness, such as the Buddha, Jesus, William Blake and Dante. Of course, these were extemely rare individuals. I am aware that we cannot even attempt to compare ourselves to such important figures, but I do think that there is a whole range of potential mystical states, ranging from the the almost mundane states of bliss, to those of a more magnificent nature. It seems to a whole pathway of possible states of consciousness, more frequently touched upon within esoteric traditions.

In some ways, I think that the term mysticism is sometimes used in a derogatory way. It is also difficult to talk about sometimes because there is the whole experiential level, which is so subjective. I am currently reading a book on peak experiences by Colin Wilson, 'Superconsciousness: The Quest for the Peak Experience' (2019). In this, he says, ' What I learned from mystics and poets was that " everyday consciousness" is only one of many possible states, and that we become trapped in assuming that it is the only kind.' Colin Wilson, in his many books looked at the quest for heightened states of consciousness. He began first exploring this in his first book, 'The Outsider',in relation to the states of mind or creative writers and artists, who entered into certain states of mind as part of the creative process. Of course, mysticism is central to religious and spiritual quests, but I think that it is an idea which is relevant to the whole spectrum of peak experiences too.

I am inclined to think that it is hard to predict what is going to happen in Britain, as indeed other parts of the world. We still have a welfare system and the NHS, and I think that it would be if these were to collapse that Britain would collapse truly because people are reliant on them. I think that maintaining the NHS has been central to the whole process of restrictions, as a central focus being the NHS being not being overwhelmed. However, what has happened is that so much money has been spent through furloughs and many people being on benefits.

So, I think that a lot will depend on whether people are able to work again. If mass unemployment continues I fear that the welfare state would collapse altogether, bringing devastation and misery for multitudes. So, survival of the economy is central, because at the moment it is extremely difficult to find work. I suppose that we have been lucky to have a whole welfare state but if this were to collapse, I really don't know how countless people would survive at all.

One area of thinking which I see as relevant to your question is chaos theory. However, that involves randomness but with some underlying order, as well as feedback loops.

Perhaps life and our lives involve order emerging from chaos. We have the order of physical laws and the whole process of creation is the emergence of order from the possibilities of random order. While there is a general background of chaos, essential order is required for the development of the physical body as well as the organisation of social life. Perhaps free will, and freedom, can be seen as feedback loops because it is at this leve that consciousness comes into the picture of subjects participating in the process of creating order.

Another aspect to the consideration of chaos and order is that they are also constructs in our minds as well as, rather than just being aspects of the external world.

Your question makes sense to me because I can remember a time when I was really afraid of possible finding of truth in my searching. What if the truth I discovered was not bearable at all. At the time, I was hovering between Christianity and atheism and afraid of both possibilities. Was it surprising that I began reading in the direction of Eastern traditions.

My answer may seem absurd to some people, because finding the truth is sometimes seen as important above all else, especially in philosophy.My own feelings of fear of finding truth of Christianity were based on my guilt and fear of hell, while the prospect of atheism seemed to spell out cosmic insignificance. But, the point which I am making is not I was aware of feeling fearful of truth itself. I was looking for answers which would make life endurance.

I am still inclined to think that finding 'truth' when we are searching for answers to all the big questions is connected to our psychological motivations. For many aspects of this, it is not as if truth is revealed easily, so it may be that we often perceive and think what we find helpful to make life meaningful.

What I am saying does worry me though, because I would like to believe that my own exploration is impartial. I have moved on from the big fear of theism vs atheism and like to think that I am more impartial now. However, as a general principle, I do wonder about when we search in the world of ideas and explanations, what if we discovered truth which was simply horrific, beyond all worst possibilities? Would we fight against it and seek untruths instead?

So do you think that it will be a downward spiral for England? I am definitely aware of austerity measures being introduced in the last few years. I hope that England is not really collapsing..

I remember getting to know a boy on a bus who came to England with his mother after his father was killed in the terrorism of Northern Ireland. Generally, the people I have known from Northern Ireland described it a bit like the way U2 do in the song, 'Where the Streets Have No Name.'

I think that England has been a very pleasant country to live in but it is changing dramatically. We are lucky to have a welfare state. I don't think that people will cope if life becomes harsh as people are not used to it.

I have not been to Ireland, despite having a father who was born there. He spoke highly of the country although he never went back there. Northern Ireland is very different though and the only people I have ever known from there seem fairly wounded by so much unrest there.

I found it interesting that you have just suggested the British understatement, because I have become aware that I am inclined to overstate my ideas generally, thinking of the extreme implications. I think that I probably do it for effect in conversations, hoping for a reaction and, often, I don't even get one. I wonder if the reason for my tendency to overstate is a stand against people understating. I don't like ideas or other aspects of life being watered down and weakened into insignificance. When I speak of overstating, I try not to exaggerate but just try to spell out details which I feel may be glossed over otherwise.

However, I don't think that I am intolerant and not sure that there is any connection between the two tendencies. Of course, I suppose it does depend what one is intolerant of, because I am simply meaning that I am tolerant of other people. Also, I do see humour as essential to life.

With your choice 1 of keeping all our freedoms or 2 of not doing so, I am unsure to what extent loss of further freedoms would address the pandemic. Even if we have all our personal information and medical history on open display on our phones, I don't see how it would stop any potential pandemic because viruses are invisible and unpredictable.

One of the arguments against digital passports etc is that it would give rise to a loss of the need for social distancing. Part of the idea in Britain behind Covid_19 passports was to enable pubs to operate without need for any distancing measures. I am sure that would to lead to a definite third wave because even if people have the vaccine and tests they can still catch it, especially if new variants arise.

Also, even if the ideas of digital passports or biometrics were introduced as a temporary measure, is it really likely that this would ever end? I can see the idea of passports for international travel being useful but if they were required just to go and buy a pair of shoes or trousers in a shop that would seem absurd. One idea which I have come across in Britain is the possibility of sugar tax, with restrictions on what food people can buy. I am in favour of healthy eating but I don't know that official restrictions would be pleasant for many. The idea behind it is that people who got Covid_19 got more sick if they were obese. Could it get to the point where people had to declare their weight on phone apps when they shop? Of course, I am being extreme but I am wondering what could happen eventually.

Also, bearing in mind that we are a long way from totalitarianism now, if that was a direction in the futue, would we even have the freedom to express ourselves on sites like this? Already, it does appear that there is a lot of surveillance of search engines, so we might not be as free as we would like to think that we are.

I certainly hope that totalitarianism is not coming. The point at which I wrote this thread was when I saw news of possible Covid_19 passports in Britain. However, it does appear that so many members of parliament are strongly against it, so it may not happen. The possible implications were as extreme as suggesting that all kinds of checks would have to be done to enter most places, including non essential shops.

Just imagine just wishing to go for a cup of coffee and having to have all these checks. It would also be so much of a nightmare for staff and I think that many people would just prefer to stay at home. Also, I am really not convinced that if people had all this data available that it would have any bearing on preventing the virus. However, I do think that everything is in such a state of confusion in Britain that it may result in draconian measures being introduced eventually.
However, in Britain what might also be going on is confusion over the exit from the EU. It has gone through officially, but when the vote for this took place it was in a pre Covid world, and as it is taking place at this particular point, it may be a big mess.

I can see your perspective on how collapses take place, especially the Roman empire. However, what I wonder about is whether Western civilisation would collapse in a similar way or not. That is because the various parts of it are probably extremely different, mainly in of the technology level of sophisticated we have reached. That is why I see economic growth as a possible starting point because it may mean that many people would lose access and may be excluded gradually.

I am not really sure to what extent I think that totalitarianism is coming. That would be more of an organised attempt at control and it does appear that we are in a position where governments are really confused. The worst scenario which I would imagine is one in which there was a strategic attempt to ensure that the ruling class and their lineage were protected, while life became worse and worse gradually for the less wealthy.

I do have some Nick Cave and Leonard Cohen, and they are extremely dark. I listen to jazz, but more alternative jazz and acid jazz. I think that music has to be chosen carefully according to mood. That can be complicated because in darker moods, sometimes somber music can help and other times make it worse. I know that some people think Leonard Cohen is music to commit suicide to. I think that in some ways, it can work in the opposite, and be a way of transmuting despair, but it is so subjective.

Diagnosis of mental illness is complex and I do think that there is a danger of it becoming a form of social control. For example, black people are more likely to be diagnosed as paranoid and this has been evident in research. Also, women are more likely to be diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder whereas men as having antisocial personality disorder.

As far as people being said to hear voices, I think that there is a danger of people being misinterpreted. I knew someone who used to speak out loud to himself and had difficulty explaining this, because he maintained that he was merely ventilating his thoughts externally, not hearing voices. Aside from voices, the whole area of delusions is subject to social interpretation.

When I worked in acute psychiatry, patients used to be held down and restrained. Of course, in many situations this was because the people were becoming aggressive. However, they were often restrained if they were refusing medication. I found this whole aspect of control and restraint of people to be extremely difficult. That is the main reason why if I work in mental health in the future, I don't wish to work in acute psychiatry settings.

One rather unfortunate aspect of psychiatry is the whole stereotype of people with mental health problems being seen as potentially violent. Of course, some people do become aggressive in response to their distress. However, it is unfortunate that the media often focus upon this, while many individuals who hear voices, or who are diagnosed as psychotic, are not violent or aggressive at all.

I am afraid that even though I love classical literature I can't relate to classical music at all. The closest I get to classical is prog rock. But on the subject of collapse, I do think that the remaining record shops are likely to collapse, which will be a great shame. It is not just a matter of being able to buy records though, as record shops are also a whole cultural or countercultural experience.

Okay, I will try reading a bit of that philosophy. The one advantage we have over the Romans though is that they did not have all the wonderful music we have to collapse with. The Doors may definitely help.

I think that you do not realise the full impact that the pandemic has had on people. Obviously, it is variable according to location and personal circumstances. I had to move twice but I see myself as lucky because when I am walking around the streets in London I see countless numbers of people lying in sleeping bags in corners. There was a homelessness problem before but it has worsened dramatically. I am also aware of families living in a bedsit units because they cannot afford more than one room.

It is hard to know what is going to happen long term, but I think that all the events of the last year are going to be very far from a 'blip', and, potentially the pandemic could go on for a very long time with many waves and countless new variants.

Individuals will vary in how they are affected, in daily life and in mental health. Of course, I do think that with any changes which come economically, or otherwise, we do have some choices in what we make of it. It is a bit like your thread about whether the worst things in life ever happened. My own take on that is that I am inclined to look to the future and dwell on the worst possible scenarios. That can be destructive, but it does allow for a certain amount of planning to try to prevent them. However, thinking about all these possibilities does stop enjoyment.

Nevertheless, in spite of everything, I have to admit that I would probably not have ever used this site as much as I have done, if had not been forced to stay at home, and I do feel that I have learned a lot from the interaction. But, I am looking forward to some easing of lockdown, and will have to avoid the temptation not to go overboard and stay out until midnight every night.

I am wondering what impact the whole cost of the pandemic and all of its aftermath will have economically. I fear a far deeper division between the rich and the poor, with many being plunged into extreme poverty. It is far too early to predict fully because we don't know to what extent life will resume after lockdown. Further businesses may collapse and government funds are going to become exhausted at some point. Of course, it will be different in various parts of the world, but it is on that level that I could see the beginning of a big collapse.

Consumer materialist culture has been crumbling before that, but it could be that the infrastructure will shatter really. I am not saying that I think that consumer materialism is wonderful, but we are so reliant on and most of lack the resources and skills to live in a completely different way. Personally, I am very open to alternative forms of economics, such as that proposed by Schumacher in 'Small is Beautiful,' but it is hard to know how they would work in practice. I would love to live in smaller communities but we are so accustomed to shops, Wifi and other aspects of Western life that I am not sure how we could all become new age hippies overnight.

I am glad that you have joined in the discussion on relativism and pluralism, and the question of how they are distinguishable. Your points are useful for considering this.

I hope that you are right that I am worrying unnecessary over totalitarianism coming. I may be reading too much news on my phone. However, when I was at King's Cross station and it was patrolled by police, carrying machine guns, it did feel like some kind of post apocalyptic dystopian world.I do believe that life is becoming increasingly virtual and apps to do most things seems to be happening, as well as cashless transactions as the new norm.

But, I do certainly worry about where history is going. This probably goes back to anxiety about 'The Book of Revelation' in The Bible. However, even though I stopped reading that on a literal level, climate change and energy resources do seem to point to possible disaster scenarios for the human race.

I am aware of having the freedom of speech to even create a thread of this kind on an online site.

I do agree that there have been major moments in history when there have been dramatic curbs on freedom before. I just see the present time as being one of such a sweeping kind. Of course, as you pointed out, we have been in a period of global medical emergency. Everyone, including the politicians, are shaken up. I think my concern is that changes made in the aftermath will be on a long term basis. Certainly, from my point of view of watching news yesterday in England I felt that life after lockdown may be far worse than during lockdown.

However, my concern about totalitarianism does come in the context of being worried about what way history will go. But, that does include ecological issues and nuclear weapon developments.

If you(Synthesis)think that the collapse already happened, what was it? As it is, we have experienced a horrible year, with both the pandemic itself and the lockdowns. I am not sure that would be actual collapse, but it difficult to predict what is going to happen next.

I think that I had noticed a lot of changes prior to that, with people being expected to perform and behave almost like robots. I think that we are gradually becoming dehumanised and even changing as individuals. I am wary of changes which may come, especially biometrics, but I am thinking that potential collapse would be something resembling almost the end of civilisation as we know it. Totalitarianism may be the start of this.

One thing that I fear may happen is a gradual spread into widespread poverty, in the aftermath of the pandemic, alongside a general move towards totalitarianism. The two could almost exist alongside one another. But, it is hard to know what is going to happen, because life is so unpredictable and we don't want what other events are going to take place in the world. We can fear one thing, and something else entirely happens.

You are probably right to say it 9/11 may have been the start of a whole change in culture in the USA and possibly other countries. But, what I am thinking is so strange is that terrorism seems to not be mentioned at all as a threat to be dealt with. Perhaps, it still seen as a potential problem behind the surface, but it seems to have become hidden.

I do agree with what you are saying, but I think that most people are blind to the collapse that is taking place. Most people I know are just swept along with the news and public opinion, with little critical awareness.

I think that Covid restrictions are part of it but not the whole picture. I am not in favour of being paranoid, but just wonder about people being able to live in a way which is bearable rather than under coercive and oppressive regimes.

I know that it may seem all a bit abstract, but I have no idea where you are living in the world.

I am living in a part of the world where extreme restrictions have been in force mostly for a year . The way I see it from where I am living is that possible measures, such as only being allowed into cafes, pubs, social venues and non essential shops may put some people into a state of permanent exclusion from the whole fabric of social life. I have a smartphone, but not everyone does. The ideas I am talking about are not definite, and they only apply to one country, but it really does make me wonder what is in our midst. I do worry about a whole culture of control, coercion and inequality. I am hoping that it is only my fear, and not something which is going to turn into a daily reality of oppression for many people.

I am not wishing to come to any firm conclusions, but just have so many questions about where we are going with information and the whole issue of social control. As far as I see, there are many different possibilities, but I am just wary of what may happen.

I do appreciate Graves, Borges and Graves l do have read Jung and have found him worthwhile, but would not wish to put him on a pedestal. I am particularly aware of aspects of his work which are open to critical attack, especially his failure to speak against the ideas of Nazi Germany at a critical time in history.

To what extent do you think that many people do have an understanding of sensitive information. I am thinking of details about health and mental health, and I have seen so much insensitive use of personal information. I think that so much education is needed and if data was just available to people arbitrarily, it could lead to prejudice and discrimination.

I am very wary of biometrics. It seems that it may give people, with so little understanding of sensitive information, the potential for abuse of power.

Yes, I want to know, in the here and now. I don't wish to have to spend time searching in the foggy mist. To some extent, it can be worthwhile, but if the truth cannot be found it could be futile, despite my enjoyment of reading the rich and imaginative insights offered by Jung.

It is so hard to disentangle what appears to be totalitarianism from what really is. Democracy is questionable, as to what extent we feel represented, truly. As for encroachments upon personal liberty, what I fear is that in the last year we have been so used to the need for such curbs. I am not wishing to undermine the pandemic, but what I see is that the need for encroachments becoming a basis for introducing subtle forms of control under the guise of protective health measures.

It is interesting to think about the role of mindless pleasures, such as the internet, and to what extent they would blind us. Of course, we all seek pleasures but it does seem worrying if this could stand in the way of critical awareness.

It is interesting to wonder to what extent current thinking about mind and other aspects of philosophy is the ultimate one. It may be that there is a lot of arrogance about claims to understanding, and this may be perceived in retrospect ,if humanity survives long enough.

Personally, I find the philosophy of mind to be one of the most interesting areas. I think that there are so many unanswered questions about consciousness. I have worked in mental health care but don't know if I wish to do so in the future, as the medical model seems so limited. Even the nursing model seems so restricted to the bottom layers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, rather than creative pursuits and self actualization.

Your reply is useful, but one problem which I see is the theoretical one and the practical one. Most of us have read George Orwell. However, to what extent would it all be so different if it were to become an actual reality?