I agree, because the more I have thought about the nature of reality over the weekend, I come to the conclusion that Eastern philosophy has probably a more synthetic understanding. The split between mind and matter, seems to permeate most viewpoints within Western philosophy,

Perhaps morality needs to combine the intentions and consequences. That is because a mere emphasis on consequences is a limited insight because it it is not possible to predict the effect of any action entirely. On the other hand, intention involves a certain amount of motivation towards an outcome.

If a person was simply acting in a certain way with an inner sense of being righteous for following a certain principle, rather than without any consideration of the effect of action, it might just really be self-righteousness.

I am sorry to hear that your grandson is struggling. I think that your story is one which highlights the way in which what is going on in the world impacts on individuals. The media shows life from a very general point of view and the suffering going on behind the scenes may get missed. I think that in England, there is recognition that children are being affected by the pandemic, as well as adults, in terms of mental health.

That is what makes all of this disaster so complicated. Obviously, it is important to protect the physically vulnerable. However, I do believe in the aftermath of all this, a whole vast explosion of other underlying problems are going to arise. I think many people are aware of this, but this is not being addressed fully at the moment.

Afterwards, I noticed that you asked about any suggestions. I am afraid I don't have any practical suggestions about the situation you describe because I don't really know many children at present. But I would say that if your grandson is hearing voices it may be helpful if a GP knows. Obviously, that may mean going down the pathway of adolescence psychiatry services, which you may see as not the best option, but I would think that, on the other hand, there is a danger in just ignoring what is happening. Perhaps, some kind of counselling might be offered.

I was interested in your specific point about the way in which you use you say that you prefer the word physical to the word material. At the time when I wrote this post I chose the word material and I think that I was thinking primarily about what is the underlying basis behind existence. So, having reflected and the way in which material possibly is more ambiguous, do you think my question would have been of a different nature, from your point of view if it it has been posed as is the physical world the absolute reality?

You say that,
'The phenomenal domain can be accorded reality without according it inherent or intrinsic reality'. Are you saying that there is no intrinsic reality as far as the limits of our human knowledge, or that the whole question of trying to find it is not that important?

The way in which I believe that Kant's ideas are applicable is his whole idea of the transcendent. As far as I see it would mean that despite empirical reality, he thought that this was an objective reality underlying all else. Of course, he was coming from the angle of Christianity. However, I do believe that if we dismiss his theory of knowledge with regards to the idea of the transcendent, then we must in some way reject his whole logic of a priori knowledge and settle for a posteriori reality.

I would say in argument against your point of view that truth can also be ugly. Here, I am speaking of realities such as poverty, injustice and suffering. Here, we could say that many wish to turn away from and neglect these aspects of life, but they are real and true for many people on a daily living reality.

I was reading one of the replies which you sent to me and I see that you of how we 'can't distinguish between the real and unreal'. Surely, this complex matter can at least be spoken of in some ways by Kant's ideas about objective reality, as well the ideas within physics. Perhaps it is the whole way in which so many different theories have arisen in physics which has put as in a Tower of Babel and , as a result, we have become lost in being able to get any grasp of what is 'reality' at all.

I would say that the question of whether the cause of physicality is a very good one. That would be going to the point of seeing the collective unconscious as being like a God force. I think that to see physicality arising in this way would be pushing Jung's ideas way beyond the way he speaks of it. The physical world has been around for a long time, so we are looking at the whole birth of the universe.

I am not sure how the Neo Platonists view the origin of the universe. I am familiar with some objective idealism. Surely, this sees mind as more essential than matter. I think that which is more primarily is the underlying question I raise. I don't have a clear answer as this is something I do wonder about a lot. However, I do think that mind and matter are so intricately bound together and think that they cannot be separated. So, if the universe and all others collapsed entirely, the question is what would be left, other than the debris. Would the laws of the physical world have collapsed. We could say that invisible laws, such as gravity are independent of physical reality to some extent, but not necessarily universal. Gravity does not operate when people are walking on the moon.

As I was writing that paragraph I felt that I was dealing with complex knots and it made me think why many philosophers believed in God, on the basis of the argument by design. I am tempted to use Jung's ideas of the collective unconscious as an explanation, but I feel that this is stretching the whole idea out of context. A similar idea is Rupert Sheldrake's idea of morphic resonance, which speaks of morphic fields as an underlying memory within nature. In my own quest to understand these complex matters, I think that I will keep reading a mixture of philosophy and the philosophy of physics.

I think your question as to whether energy is material is an important one. I think that it is at the core of physics. I am not a physicist but I believe that we have moved away from the Newtonian model which looks to structures. The quantum physicists are showing that the universe is much more complex and are less inclined to look for explanations in purely material terms.

I would see cultures, values and goals as arising from humanity, but they are are part of the collective unconscious. I am not sure if this is what you are saying, or asking?

I have read a lot of Jung and Freud, as well as other writers on the unconscious. It is hard to know to what extent the unconscious refers to hidden mechanisms which we do not understand.However, I am inclined to view the unconscious as a source.

One book which I read but, unfortunately, don't have any longer is a book by Victor White, 'God and the Unconscious.' But the idea of the associated between the two is interesting. Perhaps the idea of the unconscious and God, refer to the same reality, although it is likely that this perception of God would be a bit different from the conventional idea of God in most mainstream religious beliefs in Western thought.

I have to admit that I am not coming from an empirical perspective really. I cannot say that philosophies such as that of John Locke or the determininists have convinced me completely, because there seems to be something lacking.

One philosopher who I would agree with is Hegel. He draws upon oriental ideas, including Indian metaphysics. In 'The Philosophy of History' he speaks about dreams in the following way: 'For we have not the dreaming of an actual Individual, possessing distinct personality, and simply unfettering latter from limitation, but we have the dreaming of the unlimited absolute Spirit'.I would agree with the idea of Spirit, as adopted by Hegel.

However, I do believe that you are right to see the q for a 'counterpart' and do think that spirit or mind need a body. This is different from the idealist perspective, which seems to see the two as independent. That is one of the problems which I see arising in many systems of belief about life after death. The implication is that the mind can survive beyond death as an independent entity in its own right. I do see mind and body as interrelated and hard to separate, in a holistic way, although there does need to be some kind of source from which everything arises, or has done. I think that many philosophers are opposed to the idea of the invisible but we know that it operates in some ways, such as in electricity or Wifi, which just seem to be generated through signals.

I also do think in terms of the collective unconscious, described by Jung. Generally, I think that the interrelationship between mind and body has not been addressed adequately. I think that the basis of this has stemmed from the dualism of Descartes. I would also say that the dualism has meant that body and mind have been seen in a shallow way and the instinctual side has been underplayed. What occurred within Western philosophy is that we have ended up with too much emphasis on the empirical, especially within reductionist determinism.

I am glad that someone on this site has read David Bohm and Krishnamurti, as I do believe that they are very important writers.

I think that I may go back to some of the traditional writers, including the Greek thinkers.I was thinking of the way in which our cultural perspective is very 'sensate'. This is especially true in philosophy. I am not sure how much is coming from philosophy itself. Certainly, I believe that materialism is an implicit assumption behind many perspectives of philosophy and that is why I wished to bring the idea of materialism to the forefront as an area for questioning and exploration. Personally, I do believe that materialism as starting point for seeing the world is a limited perspective, but, in saying this I am probably coming from a countercultural angle.

I would say that consciousness and unconsciousness are probably interrelated in a very complex way. They cannot be separated and and consciousness is probably the outer manifestation of the unconscious. What do you think about this?

You speak about shared experiences of people.In thinking about this aspect of the question, I would point to the idea of the collective unconscious. The collective unconscious is made up of the individuals but can be seen as objective too. So, I would say that what is happening to civilisation as a whole may emerge from within the collective unconscious itself.

To a large extent, I would suggest that the purpose of life is not an intrinsic one, but is one which we create. We can find our own meaning and purpose in life.

Your response gives some useful points. In particular, I am glad that you noticed that I had written Sartre's idea back to front. I am surprised that no one had not commented on this before. Perhaps they were just familiar with his philosophy, so either did not mention or notice. I will go back and edit, so that the sentence reads as it should have done, so thank you for pointing it out.

It is also helpful to think about the views within traditional philosophy, including Parmenides. I am more familiar with Plato. I have read Liebniz and a bit of Spinoza. But, the only one of these who have really influenced me is Plato. I do believe that there may be archetypal forms, underlying the physical world. Really, I guess that my question does ask is there a God? Probably, I had not thought about the question in that way because I am inclined to understand God as the Tao described by Capra in 'The Tao of Physics'. I am also influenced by the Gnostic understanding of God.

As a result of my own reflections about the nature being based on views which are not traditional I often do not think about the existence of God in the framework that many do, but see God as an underlying source. However, in that view I am believing in some kind of underlying invisible force. But I would also argue in favour of what the physicist David Bohm argues, the idea of an implicate order within an explicate order. The implicate order is the invisible and the explicate is the outer. I do believe that these ideas which stem from quantum physics may sit comfortably alongside Plato's views.

I do not deny that we are living within the material dimensions of existence. I am raising the question as one which is underlying most philosophies of the world.

I don't think that the question is about the whole dualist debate alone but about the whole way in which we think about life and death, trying to figiure neat categories of body and mind, life and death. Perhaps the reality is more complex indeed.

I think that my phone may have sent my post before I sent it because I was charging it.

What I would say is that while I do value social distancing I do believe that what is happening now is important to consider.Social distancing is important to protecting the vulnerable, but the restrictions of our time are also important.

A whole new vulnerable are being created and it is highly likely that many who were healthy previously are likely to die many years earlier due to the way in which restrictions are having upon their physical and mental wellbeing. I believe that we are at the beginning of something which is much larger and that it is possible that wider devastation is in our midst, although I hope that I am wrong. But I am really worried about the underlying rhetoric of the idea of social distancing, because I do not foresee the pandemic to end within the couple of years, at least, in spite of vaccines. I do believe that the inevitable is that hundreds and thousands of people are going to be affected indirectly due to the pandemic, and it is not simply those who are elderly or those who are considered vulnerable at present

You say that it is unlikely that lockdowns will be in place for long. Certainly, the way I see it in England is that the current one may go on for at least six months and that is not counting almost a year of restrictions already.

NB. I have edited this slightly because I wrote it late at night when I was feeling fed up and miserable. I am not coming from the point of view of not agreeing with social distancing itself, but more with a view that this needs to be balanced with concern about the implications of lockdown etc. I am sure that the leaders and policy makers are indeed struggling with this conundrum

I believe that we need to wake up now. I hope that I am awake to the many dimensions of the problems of our time. However, what I see in so much of the thinking of our times is slumbering I am certainly in favour of seeing the vulnerable. However, my biggest fear is that the pandemic is creating a whole new vulnerable, which will be evident in the aftermath.

I realise that you were not trying to narrow any views. I believe that we were both logging into the same thread at some point. Personally, I think that it is possible that we are living in hard times, possibly the end of civilisation as we know it. I am inclined to think that there are not any easy solutions. I am not sure that materialistic or nonmaterialistic solutions can provide the answers. I believe that we are stepping into the unknown.

I am certainly not wishing to deny the material world. We are living it daily, with all the horrors it entails, including Covid_19.


However, I do wonder about other perspectives, including the ideas of philosophers on the transcendent, the ideas of the Eastern philosophy and many other perspectives which do not see the material realm as the supreme sphere of experience. Some philosophies seem to be about narrowing rather than enhancing the scope of perception.

I would be interested to know what you think we are agreeing or disagreeing with, because I do wonder if the material world can or cannot be taken at face value.

Personally, I believe that there is is truth in this world we perceive but I do believe that there are many additional dimensions of perceptions. In that respect, I would not wish to dismiss the reality which we see on a day to basis, but would wish to be aware of subtle, other ways of perception which do not necessarily contradict but enhance our perception of reality.

I would admit that I believe that there is a fine line between the material world and aspects beyond it, and it is from that angle that I raise the area for debate, because I believe that it is an underlying issue which is often ignored.

You raise a good question too, in asking what is material. In particular, how does the emotional stand, and to what extent is this simply an expression of the material, or something more?

I appreciate your answer. I would just say that I think that the whole question is of so important, because so many philosophical views are dependent on metaphysical assumptions about reality. This is because philosophies are hinged on premises about the nature of the material world and how real it is.

Does physical or mental reality precede one another, and how do we disentangle the two in a way which is meaningful to us?

It is questionable how we approach others points of view. How much is respect, and how much is about whether we think we know more than others. Who can say that they have the most absolute picture of truth and reality?

I believe in empirical speculation but do believe it has its limitations. Perhaps we are in danger of shutting off our philosophical quest if we remain too empirical and closed to other ways of perceiving the problems arising in philosophy.

I am most certainly open to the perspective you present. If anything, I would advocate a more open minded perspective, in the quest of enquiry.

I agree with you but in some ways we are stuck in between the daily realities which we have and abstract arguments, such as those which we have in the writings of Kant and other important philosophers. How does this equate with the living reality of philosophy which we relate to?

I am not wishing to dismiss Kant or our own living perspective based on scientific premises and empirical observation. I am trying to it put together this realm of thinking alongside contemporary materialism. Please don't mistake me, I am not in favour of dismissing the ideas of Kant and other thinkers.

I believe that the perspective of materialistic philosophy is limited and I am just trying to think about ways in which the whole area needs careful thinking for progressing forwards.I am not opposed to materialism, but wishing to finding it and its benefits and limitations in the within whole the philosophy quest.

I would say that I began this thread partly in response to what you were saying to @Gus Lamarch, with whom I have been discussing ideas relating to nihilism. Personally, I am influenced by systems theory, but I do have a whole interest in the the whole basis of the theory of knowledge, including the perspective of Kant. I also do aim for pluralistic considerations of truth, which would include thinking which goes outside the thinking of the Western philosophy tradition.

I would say that I see the material world, and the psychology and cultural aspects which arise from it as extremely important aspect of truth, but do not wish to rule out other aspects. I say this coming with a view to the realm of other dimensions, especially in the realm of quantum physics, the arts and a certain amount of critical appreciation of the various spiritual perspectives.

To what extent are mental and physical reality identical? Are we not confronted by the split between mind and body, as it appears in the thinking of Descartes? So, we are still left with the question, as to whether what is the most real?

I think that there are a lot of hidden aspects of life not being addressed under the guise of the importance of social distancing. One major aspect is that the whole notion of some people being more vulnerable to the virus is being used to make everyone feel guilty about being allowed to do absolutely anything at all.

What is happening is that many people who were fit and active are spending most of the time at home being told that they should only go out for essential shopping and some exercise outside. It is winter, so many cannot just go outside walking. Also, toilet facilities are shut. So, people are just staying inside.

There are concerns that the vaccine is not as effective as previously thought. I believe that it is highly unlikely that the pandemic will end for the next couple of years, at least. If people are made to feel guilty for wanting to have any kind of life at all for an endless period of time many people who have been healthy previously are going to fall by the wayside into severe physical and mental illness, and will probably die many years earlier than they would have done. That is independently of those who are likely to become homeless, and in dire poverty, as the whole economy collapses.

I would say that my parents certainly came from the same perspective on art being about beauty. I was encouraged to do realistic art by my parents and on courses I have done.

My funny memory was is that of doing an abstract painting, all in black, at age 4, at play school. When I was making I felt like it was a deep statement, but when I showed it to my mum, she was absolutely horrified. So, I told her that it was burnt roast potatoes, and I think that this was the end of my abstract painting career.

I have experimented in symbolic drawings, especially on the art therapy course. My favourite artists do include Dali and William Blake, who are recognised in the 'aesthetic' sense, although many have criticised Blake's lack of drawing skill.

I would like to do more symbolic art at some point in the future. However, I as I have said on a number of occasions I am interested in the arts in the widest sense. Generally, I love alternative perspective in writing and music, including the most experimental psychedelic styles, for looking into other dimensions, for increased experience, transformation and understanding.

I would agree that the pandemic is exhausting our morale. I think that you are right in saying that in war the moment of fighting passes, and in this situation it goes on and on.I try not to dwell on it all the time. I do need to find work but I cannot properly do so and I am trying to make the best use of my time and energy.

In some ways, I am grateful for being able to have some time to myself. If it had not been for lockdown and restrictions I would not have been able to engage on this site in the way that I have been doing. I sometimes imagine if I was in the job I was in last year, how I might have spent my break at work on the site. But I would say that in many ways I feel much more well due to being not at work because I had so much stress at work and difficult shift patterns. Also, on my days off I used to go out so much and stay out late in Central London, so I was often lacking in rest. So, what I am saying is that changes brought by the pandemic cannot possibly last permanently but it is best to make the most creative use of them. In some ways, I feel that the time is comparable to the school holidays which at the time seemed so long.

I did see your earlier post, and your entry about the celebration yesterday. I didn't see it because I don't have a television. In many ways, I am glad that I don't have a television because I find that if I watch too much news I get depressed. Usually, I just check the news about once or twice a day on my phone, just so that I am up to date. Anything more becomes too much. I prefer to entertain myself by reading and listening to music than television, although most of my friends watch loads of it because they really enjoy it

Anyway, let us hope that we see some positive news in the US, England and the rest of the world.
We don't want too many more disasters at the moment, because we have more than enough to think about. If there is too much to deal with it can be completely overwhelming.

It seems a long time ago that I wrote my answers to you but I was pleased to get a reply. I have in the meantime been engaged in discussions about life after death, especially in a thread I began: what happens to consciousness when we die? I can't say that it has brought me to any certain conclusions at the present time.

I even got into a debate, with someone on a completely different thread theme, about the idea of eternal recurrence as developed by Nietzsche. He suggested that the whole of history may repeat itself in cycles of repetition. This would mean the we repeat our current lives repeatedly again and again. This can be seen as a possibil literal or symbolic truth.

However, I have to say that the idea of rebirth as different forms is the most appealing because it gives scope for so much learning through diverse experiences. I would like it to be true, but that doesn't mean it is. It may be that the various ideas such as reincarnation, heaven and hell, reincarnation and resurrection point to the symbolic truths, for viewing our lives within the greater scheme of the eternal.

In some ways I can relate to the nihilistic conclusions you come to, although I think that is only one of possible conclusions to come to. This would include those in response to the various arguments of yours in this thread and others. Personally, I prefer to keep an open mind because at this stage I have not come to any ultimate conclusions. However, I realise that you have come to your present conclusion because it is based on the way in which you see truth, which is a fair measure. But the problem which I see is in the practical applications for life.

I know that your underlying philosophy is the position of egoism. In a sense, I can see the value of this as being about seeking to fulfill our own needs, and I am sure that this involves the instinctual ones. Personally,I am aware of the way in which I do this on a daily basis. You may be speaking important truth to people who are more caught up in the day to day following of a group.

Nevertheless, I would say that one of the limitations of the underlying nihilism which you have been presenting in this particular thread is that it is does not present a picture which allows for much scope for practical application. I realise that there are not any simple answers to the ways living. In particular, I would say that Christianity, from which I have a family background, tended to place the emphasis on the life after this one as the source of happiness. I can see the problem of this. In addition, there were many wars in the name of particular religious beliefs, as well as persecution of witches and others who challenged mainstream morality and lifestyles.

The point I would wish to make is that one still needs to find meaning on a daily basis rather than simply thinking about death. I do think that death can be something to inspire living rather than giving up. I say that coming from the perspective of having friends who committed suicide. I am certainly not wishing to suggest hope, in its shallow aspect. One book that I have read is 'Suicide and the Soul' by James Hillman, in which he sees the suicidal gesture as the confrontation with despair as a source for transformation.

I realise that you are probably not suicidal and neither am I at the present time. However, I think that the philosophy of nihilism is one which could lead in this direction, especially if a person is experiencing extremely difficult life circumstances. So, what I am saying is that it is important to see the possibility of transformation in the face of the abyss of despair rather than the just the goal of death. I do believe it is possible to juggle the ideas of death as the inevitable peace alongside the actual creativity of the struggle of life. I think that nihilism needs to engage with despair rather than simply stating it as a conclusion.