Yes, I think that the whole petroleum problem is the biggest one. Anyway, I have a couple of other replies from you on other threads. I will look at them tomorrow because my eyes and brain are tired out for today.

I definitely see signs of decadence. Often, the signs of decadence come from religious parts of the population, but obviously we are speaking in a much wider sense. There is so much fragmentation in all aspects of life and it is becoming much more pronounced.

I find your historical picture and would imagine that have probably studied history in some depths. My own background is more a mixture of philosophy and psychology. So, you are probably more versed in the idea of cycles. I definitely believe that there are cycles and probably the way I had conceived cycles was more along the lines of the Hindus. I have even thought in terms of the astrological age cycles, such as the transition from the age of Pisces to Aquarius.

I definitely don't think that what we are seeing is just like the end of the middle ages. I would say that it is equal to the fall of Rome, if not more.The reason I say possibly more, is the whole climate concern and whether the earth could become uninhabitable.

I am just hoping that the whole pandemic might be a wake up call, to enable people to be more aware and revolutionary in thinking. I do wonder if it might be our last chance.

I would say that there is definitely a clear relationship between action and results. However, what I wonder about is the role of intentionality and consciousness in determining events. I am not convinced that causation only occurs on the physical level. I do believe that it is much more complex. Here, I wonder about Jung's notion of synchronicity. He is speaking of meaningful coincidences. Of course, it is we the subjects who perceive the meaningful coincidences.

The question is do the perceived coincidences exist only in our minds? Could it be that more like the way described by the physicist David Bohm suggested in his idea of the implicate and explicate order? If change occurs in the implicate order we could be seen as seeing patterns played out in the explicate order, of manifestation in life. But, on the other hand, our consciousness might also have a basis in the implicate order, and therefore have an active, determining influence too.

I think that you are partly right, but I would say that we are driven by our animal sides and rational aspects, with emotions as somewhere in between. Jung spoke of how we had neglected the animal aspects of our being and how religious and spiritual teachings had spoken in terms of a false dichotomy between lower and higher aspects of human nature.

I would imagine that the whole way of seeing life was different between the earliest people and present day ones. I am sure that they were more practical because they had learned to approach life in that way. There are variations between people and I am one of the worst examples because I sit here writing about ideas and I rely on microwave food.

But I do believe that ideas are not just based on instincts alone. What about the role of art? We are not just concerned with bodily aspects of life, but at the same time it would be foolish to deny these. It is possible that in the original sense ideas were based on survival. It is also possible that the whole processing of ideas was different , as suggested by Julian Jaynes in 'The Origins of the Bicameral Mind.'

I would say that we need to be aware of the instincts, emotions and reason and that ideas occur on all these levels. If anything, perhaps the problem with Plato and Kant was that they made the whole problem of knowledge appear too mystical. However, on some level I would argue that there is still an archetypal and mythical dimension to human existence.

I would say that the positive side of the pandemic is that it makes us aware that we are all vulnerable. It can be transmitted as easily to the poor as the rich. It does seem that some ethnic groups, particularly Asians and Africans are worst affected. However, the whole pandemic has affected everyone on some level, and in that sense can be a wakeup call which can hopefully be a united one.

Yes, what happens to consciousness when you leave university? Perhaps you can end up behaving forever more in an afterlife of acting like a student. That is what I have probably ended up doing so far: living in student-like accommodation, reading books and writing etc. You can even be reincarnated onto another course. Perhaps, eventually you will reach Nirvana, which I have not managed so far, even when I was working. I don't know what Nirvana would entail here: having a family, becoming a professor?

In a post yesterday I was saying that it is very sad that people are starting to expect books, music and other works for free, without appreciating of the artists' need to make money to live.

However, what you are saying about community arts is very important. I do believe that children and adults should have access to being able to participate in art based activities. Just before lockdown I was attending a creative writing group at a library and had just discovered an art group, which I attended once, in a museum. These were free. I do believe that it is important that people, children and adults, are provided to have access to the arts. It is such an outlet for people and I hope that after the pandemic these groups will be part of culture. I would also hope that there is public funding for such activities, rather than them just having to be staffed by volunteers.

I have read a fair amount of dystopian fiction, but the idea of a society based on this would be problematic.That is not to say that the realisation of utopia is without problems too. I can see your point about entropy.I I read book 'Utopia by Thomas More' at some point, but I don't think it impressed me much because I can't remember it.

I probably do have utopian dreams, but I also can relate to dystopian and post-apocalyptic fiction more easily because they speak more about aspects of our times. I do see them as imaginary and do not think that they can be applied practically. But the one aspect which I wonder about is what effect the ideals do have upon us on a collective level, consciously and subconsciously? Do these dreams and fantasy scenarios have a self -fulfilling prophecy, or do they give us scope for a critical understanding of culture?

I can't possibly think that you would get banned. Even though I am not someone who advocates banning people I can see that the two people who were banned had enormous attitude problems, which you do not. I would imagine that the mods do put some careful thought into banning rather than doing it arbitrarily.

One seemed to think he was superior to almost all others on the site, practically wanting to change it completely and even suggested that he should edit articles. The other had many prejudices and I had a difficult night when I challenged him about his use of the word schizophrenia to imply someone who lacks rationality. He also was being very offhand with me on the day before he was banned, asking me how old I was. I know that the reasons why these 2 were banned was for different reasons but I thought that they were extremely difficult members.

I would object if you were banned. I think that the only problems that the mods might have with you or me is that we start a lot of threads. I really started the one on the arts this week to try to break down all the heated politics. We all get heated, and sometimes I feel heated and have to think before I write. I find lying on my bed and playing some music helps. I have also thought that if get too wound up I might avoid the site for a few days, but it is not easy because I have got into the habit of logging on to my phone.

The discussion on self-fulfilling prophecy was in the thread on disasters and where are we going.
I would be interested in the topic but I will log off for a few hours. That is because it is after midday and I am still in bed, because I have been lying in bed, busy reading and writing on this site. I can't stay in bed all day!

I do wonder about where humanity is going and it something which I probably have thought about since childhood. The last few years have raised so much query about the climate and ecology. The pandemic has raised questions about the stability of many cultures as well.

I find it hard to imagine what is going to happen exactly because life is becoming unpredictable. A year ago we would not have imagined that life would have been turned upside down as it has been. But while it is hard to predict, I think that it is about the most important topic for philosophy but perhaps many just flee from the intensity.

I think that it was great that the topic popped into this thread last night and probably took many by surprise. However, I would imagine that the topic won't really be discussed properly here. It is becoming a great long thread, with a jumble of ideas. One possible are for the discussion is in the matter could be in the thread I have going on disasters and where are we going? It is probably not the most popular thread but there were a certain amount of partakers in the discussion. Alternatively, one of you might wish to start a new thread if you think that you might catch a new audience.

I am taking it as an obvious standard rule that we can quote others, because that applies to all writing, including academic writing. I would be The only one particular unsolved puzzle of all times is whether Shakespeare was the real author of all his works.

I generally like to keep thread discussion as open as possible but I would welcome any suggestions for specifics. I created this thread about 6 weeks ago and it feels more like 6 months ago. I have written lots, but at the moment this one seems to risen again. Unlike some threads which I thought about quite a bit, I wrote this really spontaneously, so I am inclined to the idea of keeping it as open as possible in the spirit of creativity.

I see that this is your first post on the site, so I hope that you find some interesting discussions. I have been thinking about the issue of ideas since the comment made previous to yours. What I have been thinking is about is how both Plato and Kant saw ideas as part of the objective sphere. Their theory of knowledge was based on the belief that knowledge and ideas exist independently of us, and we are able to discover them.

Yes, it is also interesting to wonder about how inventions are out there in an objective realm waiting to be discovered. I have been engaged with others on a couple of other threads about the process of creativity in the arts. In thinking about this we can ask about whether, for example, the pictures of Salvador Dali or novels of James Joyce were based on an objective realm of ideas awaiting discovery.

This is also an exciting area of thought because it leads us into the direction of how do we find knowledge ourselves? Kant thought it was discoverable, by the principle of reason. I am sure that many think of other means of finding ideas, including psychedelic experimentation. These could be seen as the two extreme approaches as searching for ideas awaiting to be found. At the moment, the world is in need of some outstanding ideas. I am almost starting to think of someone out in the wilderness reaching out for ideas like Moses grasping the ten commandments amidst burning bushes.

It is almost midday and I have not got out of bed yet because I haven't recovered from reading about the recent banning.

I read the news of the banning when I got up in the middle of the night and was so shocked because RL was the star of the show at the moment. It was disappointing that some of her writings were not her own.I just can't think why she used others writings. She did put a couple of replies to me on the threads I wrote and I would presume these were written by her because they seemed in response to me. They were well written and I would have imagined that she aa a person could have written plenty herself, so it just seems a shame that she felt the need to use others writings instead.

But 3 bannings in less than a week is very dramatic. It is all starting to become like a reality TV show, but perhaps it is because of all the lockdowns. Also, in another thread before the latest banning, Gus Lamarch said that what is happening here on the forum is asymptomatic of fragmentation in the world.

This is a fairly old thread in the sense that I have probably started about five since this one.

However, I am interested by your claim that every idea thought by mankind had existed already. If you mean it is based on some instinct, I am not sure that would make sense in the way that I am thinking of ideas. That is because I am thinking of them in a philosophical sense. For example, the ideas of psychoanalysis, postmodernism, the existential, holistic or phenomenological.

Of course, I realise that I am talking of the naming of ideas and that the actual content of ideas goes beyond the surface of mere naming. I can understand that some ideas are discovered by all different cultures independently, such as the idea of time or the idea of religion. In this respect, such ideas could be seen as archetypal. Is that what you mean?

Basic ideas could be seen as existing in that way. but surely, is it certain individual human beings who have developed the specific ideas, such as the philosophical theories or critiques, as we know them.

Perhaps people are worried really and that makes them avoidant. I guess we all use escape mechanisms. Sometimes I start to write posts and begin to alter them because I think they are going to be grim to read. I also fluctuate in terms of how pessimistic or optimistic I feel about what is going on.

You frame the whole picture well in its historical context too. I suppose we also see the picture differently based on where we are based geographically and what portrayals we are given in the media.

But it does indeed seem that so much is fragmenting and that is why you were able to slot it into this thread. Anyway, I will log off and go to bed now, so goodnight and I hope that people take an interest in what you have written.

What you are saying is very important. I am glad that you have placed it here because at least it cannot be ignored. I have been trying to engage in discussion about the present state of of the world, during the last week, but I don't think many people are interested. So, I hope that a lot of people read and take on board what you are saying.

What kind of world are you living in if you cannot see the deep chaos into which humanity is descending?

I am rather horrified by the way in which so many people seem to expect arts for free. I have friends who do not buy music at all and seem to think that I am ridiculous in paying for it. I also hear people grumble if the books in charity shops are not as cheap as in another shop, being over fifty pence or a pound. I often point out that why should they expect to get it for almost nothing, considering all the work that it must have taken.They usually laugh at what I am saying.

But I will confess that I have downloaded many books on my Kindle. I have managed to get so many of the classics free, and a lot of the authors are not living ones. I have also got a lot of new indie authors books or samples, and it is unlikely that I would have bought all these without having heard or read about them.

But I am deeply disturbed by the way people seem to object to having to pay for the arts. When I have conversed with some others who seem to think that I waste my money in this ways, they have gone as far as to suggest that artists should not expect to make their money and do jobs and do art as an extra. So I am left wondering how do we change a culture which expects the arts as a free extra?

It is probably evident that I am a bit of a music addict and I do listen to goth music a fair amount, ranging from the Cult, Bauhaus, the Cure, the Mission and even a bit of industrial, including the Nine Inch Nails. I know you say that are not a big music listener.

I like to explore the arts as widely as possible and in many genres.

I haven't replied to you because I didn't want to break up the discussion you were having about art installation you were having about with Possibility.

But coming from a different angle, what do you think about the whole issue of aesthetics in works of literature? I am a fan of gothic fiction which challenges certain norms, as well as traditions such as cyberpunk. I would say that I like being guided into alternative ways of seeing and this really gives me a lot to think about.

I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.

Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction.

I am not sure that theism is at the centre of the debate because it is likely that the policy makers come from many angles of belief. Also, from my understanding of the views expressed by many of that these vary so much. I think that it would be far too simplistic to split the opinions and arguments into being a matter of a theistic or atheist perspective.

Also, I am not sure what you would recommend by a utilitarian approach. I would say that there are competing views on morality and if the utilitarian one had been applied strictly there would be great dangers. It could, taken to the extreme, been about just ignoring the elderly and the vulnerable. The idea of the good of the greatest number is a limited moral yardstick.

Personally, I don't see the appeal of some very abstract art or installations which are displayed under guises such as postmodernism. But, of course, some people do think highly of this and that is where subjectivity comes in.

But, when I speak of the sacred in art I would certainly not be thinking of replicating the sacred art from past ages. I am thinking of capturing states of higher consciousness, which for want of a better term I will call 'enlightenment.' I am asking about this possibility and about mythic truth. Please also note that I am not just talking about visual art but all others, including literature. Perhaps many of the greatest writers ranging from Dante, Herman Hesse, Dosteovsky, to name a mere few managed to capture certain states of consciousness. I would say that the arts, including the visual can express so much of the deepest, innermost truths. What do you think about this?

I do like your comment. It is a problem that art has often fallen into the hands of corporations. When I was leaving school I did consider going on to study graphic art. But the idea that it may end up leading to designing baked bean can wrappers deterred me. Even Andy Warhol's soup cans don't really inspire me. But now, I would say that so many would be queuing up for a supermarket to stack cans of baked bean tins onto the shelves.

But the tension does remain between art as a pursuit for its value and the whole system of earning a living. Some people who are extremely successful make a lot of money, but they are the minority and often have to look to the sphere of popularity and commercialism? Most people I know who try to make money through various arts cannot make enough money to live and have to have another job, or be topped up with benefits. So, where does that leave most people wanting to pursue the arts? Does it end having to be just a hobby'

I think that you are coming mainly from the point of view of realistic art, which for many might be seen as replication. I do have experience of making art which is realistic although I was wishing to give added depth rather than simply copying.

However, you seem to be advocating conventional aesthetics insofar as you speak of portraying handsome men and beautiful women. I have never just wished to depict the people who are the best looking. I often drew people who were 'different', including people from various subcultures, such as punks and even drunk, down'n'out people sitting on park benches. I found these were interesting to draw and what I found was it could be stark to portray them in beautiful settings, such as the park or near architecturally decorated buildings. Perhaps this is the level of paradox applied to art.

You seem puzzled by how I seem to think that the whole mention of the sacred and profane applies to the arts. I would point to the whole history of religious paintings, stained glass windows and art work in other religions, especially Hinduism. The art of Hinduism is particularly interesting because it involves the many aspects of the gods, including Shiva and Kali. But even traditional Christianity did portray the diabolical as well, as conveyed by the images of gargoyles.

But, above all else, I do believe that the arts and making it involve moving into different states of consciousness. I know that you are more of a mathematician than an artist. I do not enjoy maths but I am wondering if you find maths can change consciousness and here I am wondering about the experience of the transcendent truths?.

I am not sure what you would consider to be 'the productive life.' My own would be one of making art and writing. If you consider the sixties music as the theatre of the absurd what do you make of new wave, indie, hip hop etc?

You speak of the importance of music that could be helpful before going to a job interview or being diagnosed with terminal cancer. These are vastly different and I have been in the situation of going for interviews. I remember playing an album by the band Weezer before one and it helped, but music is subjective.

The question of what music one would play if one was terminally I'll is interesting. I am sure it is subjective as well. You speak of no music for living a 'meaningful life despite terminal cancer'. I think it would be mistaken to project all expected on to music. I think if I was told that I was terminally ill I might find the music of U2 to be helpful, such as The Joshua Tree. The biggest challenge would be not to retreat to bed but to continue an active life. But I am sure different people would have different challenges and music might not be the biggest concern.

But the main thought which I am having while writing this is that while I love to listen to music that I don't just want to indulge in this too much as a passive observer, as a victim of consumerism. I don't make music but I want to be creating art of my own.

You say that I have not answered your questions. I am not sure what they were exactly because it is hard to find them in this long thread. I think that you asked me whether I thought I was superior to Hitler or the Nazi's. I am critical of what these people did so I see the perspective they came from as something to avoid. But I am really saying that, even if you see it as a contradiction, that we should rise above beliefs about superiority.

I would agree that people are not necessarily free from the threat of poverty and homelessness in the first world countries. I think that sometimes people can use the language of equality and political correctness as empty rhetoric. Attitudes towards the vulnerable are more than just words. But this is a complex topic, especially as we are having it in the middle of a thread of many other highly emotional dialogues.

I am puzzled about how you see the music of the Beatles, Bob Dylan and psychedelia as lowering consciousness. What do you mean and what music do you believe raises it ?

I have known a couple of people who made art based on toilets and urinals. There may not be a strict division between the sacred and the profane. The quest may be to discover the beauty within madness.

As you suggest that you are more able to take consciousness to the next stage or two on a practical level than I am, I am fascinated to know more. Obviously, I don't know if it is something which you are willing to share about it on this site.

That is a fascinating idea for an art or writing project: taking the idea of Satan and turning him into Jahweh. We can all play around with that idea.

The most relevant art that I can think of is 'The Marriage of Heaven and Hell' by William Blake. Also, I can vaguely remember reading in one of Blake's works, that, 'Milton wrote in fetters because he was part of the devil's party unknowingly.' No wonder that I worry about expressing my dark side, even though I am not religious in a conventional sense, and Blake wasn't a mainstream thinker himself

Your post raises many important points and areas for questioning and examination about states of mind underlying the process of making art. I do believe that the consideration of this is essential and I definitely do believe that art can and should be so much more than decoration or commodities.

While I have done visual art always, in the last few years I have done more creative writing than art, so when I was creating this thread I was thinking about how to create the best fiction but I there are issues underlying all the arts, but with slight differences depending on the form of art. In some ways, it involves thinking of the way in which the aesthetics of the art will affect the viewer and about the dimensions into which the audience may be taken into. However, I do recognise the importance of the way in which art has a subjective element, but, also, as you suggest, it involves symbolism.

One of my biggest questions is about the whole question of dark fiction and fantasy. This is because I have to admit that in many ways this appeals to me, as does magical realism. Here, I would say that some of the authors I admire are Cormac McCarthy, Angela Carter and Stephen King. They involve mythic dimensions and do engage with the dark side of life. It would seem so shallow if they did not. I am influenced by the ideas of Jung and Joseph Campbell. I believe that the ideas of Joseph Campbell were used in the making of 'Star Wars'. Of course, this film was about the portrayal of a quest for popular audiences for film.

However, the underlying question is how dark should one go to create a good story,? I am not saying that in reference to making fiction with a view to what would be sellable, but with a view to what is most interesting for others to read. When I was going to creative writing workshops I did find that I was inclined to go in the direction of the dark and was a bit concerned that I should not do so, because I am not wishing to take others into negative states of mind. Ideally, I would like to write and make art which is transformative in a positive way.

I do believe that part of this process may be about getting into positive states of mind in the first place. At times, I have struggled with depression and dark states of mind, so I do try to work on this. I do some meditation. I would imagine that medication has some effects on the states of consciousness which can be useful for creating positive mental states for making art. I do use some visualisation CDs, including some shamanic ones.

Of course, shamanic journeying involves the journeying to lower worlds as well. I suppose this is where my questioning is based. The shamanic journeying is intentionally going to the lower worlds, but with a view to find healing potentials. So, I guess what I am wondering is whether we should be exploring such depths, or simply be exploring higher states of consciousness. This is on the personal level but also in the art we make.
I am sure that there are no simple answers but I do believe that it matters and has important implications.

I think that you make a very good point that,
'Art is only as dangerous as its context.' I am sure that sound can be misused. Someone once told me that it is even possible to kill purely by the use of sound.

But music has hypnotic potential and I am sure that this can be used with positive or negative intentions and effects.

I started this thread with a view to thinking about creating art but it is hard not to indulge in discussions about music because it affects us and inspires us in every way. I probably spend as much time listening to music as I do reading.

I love the music of the 60s and so much of that was consciousness raising, including the music of the Beatles, Bob Dylan and all the psychedelic bands. Music is so connected to what is going on in culture and it will be interesting to see what music emerges from the pandemic. I do find a lot of good new music, including a lot of psychedelic music because I read music magazines and used to go to record shops regularly before the pandemic.

I am worried that a lot of the record shops may never reopen and many have already shut down. Record shops and live music give music a dimension which I don't believe can be captured when people just rely on You tube and other sites at home.

You made an interesting Freudian slip. You said 'rape' music, presumably meaning rap. I think that it is possible to feel raped in the head by the sound of some music. Some rap can be very interesting politically, but a lot of it is very commercial.

But music is so central to the whole emotional and mental life. I am sure that it is one of the most important means for altering and raising consciousness on all levels.

I was writing this thread more with a view to changing consciousness rather than changing opinions, although it is fairly possible that actual opinions could change. For example, some portrayal of an aspect of life could be portrayed in a film or a novel and it could bring a deeper understanding which changes opinions.

Opinions can be hard to change, even with the aid of philosophy and it is likely that the depiction of certain historical struggles can bring about depth and emotion to a portrayal of an aspect of social life.We could say that this could be done without need to involve an imaginary construct. For example, it is possible to write about life in the form of non fiction rather than just turning it into fiction.

We could also say that when philosophers write can involve some artistry too. I don't just mean sophisticated arguments but the deeper engagement with artistic creation, to bring forth the best philosophical writing.for This might enable people to engage more with the underlying issues and have an incredible world of ideas and knowledge. This may aid the way in which ideas are manifest in real life and bring important changes in the world.

I rewrote what I wrote to you a little bit because I realised that I had been focusing too much on the role of the experience of the individual, whereas I am really wishing to address the wider effects of the arts. In particular, I am concerned about the states of consciousness entered into by the creator of an art form and how this impacts upon the audience, on a personal but also, on a collective basis.

It is worth drawing them. I can see them in carpets and wallpaper designs. I once ate a packet of morning glory seeds a long time ago and I could see the most extraordinary faces on the door, so I sat and sketched them

But I don't recommend eating morning glory seeds. They contain a chemical resembling Lsd.
This means that a lot of people experiment with them for their psychedelic benefits. As a result, they are usually coated in poison and I did have bad stomach ache after using them.

You seem to be opposed to seeing any problems with the idea of superiority, and my view of seeing people as being of equal worth and value. You do point to the evolutionary importance of superiority. However, I am wondering what system of society you are advocating, in terms of ranking according to certain measures of superiority. Would you be wishing to maintain the status quo or challenge power dynamics?

My point about superiority took place within a discussion about political correctness. However, all discussions gets broken up in this long thread. But, bearing in mind that the conversation took place originally in that context I am wondering what are your views on the importance of equality?