I don't see what there is to be confused about. There is no real difference between metaphysical or epistemological solipsism, it's just splitting hairs when it's ultimately the same thing it's talking about.

But the more you think about it the more of a nothingburger it is. I mean you can't test it, you can't even know, or feel the difference if there even is one, and if there was you'd never know since all you have is your perception so you can't validate it. You'd have to be able to get outside of your perception to do so but that would be invalidating solipsism as soon as you do. So.........................................................

I don't know. I just thinking about it I have to wonder why even think about it?

I don't it just honestly sounds like splitting hairs to be honest since it's not knowing if there is anything else but you. Though that would raise the question about why are you even talking to other people or posting on the internet. The response they get is "they're going along, they're playing the game" which is just absurd, honestly.

Yeah but that's not what we're talking about.

Seems like same thing as far as solipsism goes.

They can’t. You can’t refute god, simulation, etc, or anything metaphysical really. There’s no way to really test it, just like you can’t prove solipsism.

There’s a set of assumptions you have to make about the world, without which you can’t do any thing. Even solipsism assumes the subject or mind exists, well that and a lot of other things like assuming the area around them isn’t real, that other people don’t have minds. It assumes too much that it breaks Occam’s razor

Except you can’t be sure of the existence of your own mind. Hence another argument based on nonsense.

You write that "and to be frank we can't be sure of anything", but that is exactly the metric to make the jump to epistemological solipsism.

Your position that "we can't be sure of anything" is the point of epistemological solipsism.

Wrong again bud. Can’t be sure of anything just leaves you stuck then. You can’t be sure you exist or your mind, you don’t jump to solipsism from there. YOU CAN’T. At least not without leaps of faith like any other philosophy.

The position of “not be sure of anything” isn’t the point of epistemological solipsism (which let’s face it is just splitting hairs from metaphysical solipsism). Solipsists are at lest sure they and their mind exist, and yet have no basis for thinking so. They just assume that to be the case.

So still not correct there.

how is it moot, the guy tried to prove solipsism.

I still want to know about my orignal post though

Well the Video I linked to aruges how you can't even know if you're thikning or if there is a you.

SO while it appears to be skepticism it's really just fantasy it's doing.

Not making and checking unfounded (which is already a red flag as what is considered unfounded is debatable) assumptions while in the process using unfounded assumptions.

They don’t even know if they’re thinking or if they exist, both of which are unfounded:

https://youtu.be/SRwMFjCoOUc

It's actually skepticism's greatest failure, since in trying to winnow it down to what can be known for certain ends up making a TON of other assumptions in the process to get there to the point where it gets absurd. It would in fact be less skeptical to assume an external reality.

Again solipsism fails Occams Razor.

Not true, those facts don’t matter philosophically, it’s all in the present and all these things are happening outside your mind as you’re taking things in (by your admission). You would have to prove your mind is the maker and receiver of these stimuli and I know you can’t, nor can anyone.

But again as stated you can’t be sure of your mind in the present let alone “you”. The fact you’re using leaned language that you got outside you is enough to blow that claim away. Try making any argument without language let alone the concepts to argue for solipsism, you can’t.

The past does exist, just not in the way you think. The present is also not an inference either. It exists apart from you. The only way for your argument to make any sense is to axiomatically claim that your mind and you don’t need a cause, and at that point you’ve already lost as that would violate Occam’s razor. Why assume you and your mind are cause less when it’s more logical to go with realism or the default view.

There really is no logic that can reasonably jump to solipsism. Just because we can’t be “sure” (and to be frank we can’t be sure of anything so that’s not a metric to use) doesn’t mean it’s all in your head or you’re the only conscious thing. That’s not what explains our observations so it doesn’t logically follow.

Like I said, faulty premises that assume too many things they can’t prove.

To repeat, arguments for solipsism eventually boil down to nonsense. And it’s why it’s pure faith, nothing more.

That doesn’t even follow…

Like I said, pro solipsism arguments are nonsense.

That and this reply under it:

Solipsism is not a choice, human beings or a human being is even in strict scientific terms a subjective entity, a subject, everything that happens to me is in my own subjective bubble. But, this is not where i see where the problem is at. The problem comes when, if you even come to the realization that solipsism is true, and that no event can exist without you consciously being subjectively aware of it, why would a solipsist or any person, put himself inside a simulated reality that basically restricts him in his wishes, fantasies, and absolute freedom. If you are infact first and foremost, outside of the simulated reality and have absolute freedom to do with yourself whatever you want, restricting yourself to a simulation even if it is self imposed, inside one’s own mind is really hard to understand. Because you would basically go into a span of about 80 years, experiencing even suffering, physical or psychological, being restricted in what you can do, example, no absolute control or freedom over matter, or the mind-matter relationship, i agree that it is hard to understand subjectivity and its logic that way. But, still, that does not negate solipsism. Because you also get to experience amazing beautiful things and extend your freedom further to the point of physical liberation or end which results in death, but you only end your own mind simulation. The whole process of solipsism is that every minute, date, month, year and second is a carefully planned event that must ultimately lead to absolute freedom, that is the end point of solipsism, to be able to do whatever you want, and without your subjectivity in that state ever ending.

As for denying any simulation hypothesis from the soul to mind to computer does not cause someone to doubt what is real, compared to direct realism then perhaps Plato and Decartes are not as adept as you. — introbert

There's no reason to take it seriously. Unless they can demonstrate said alternate reality it's junk. Even then it wouldn't make this less real. You'd just have two realities. I mean alternate realities are a common trope in media today, even cartoons do it, so I don't see why it would make you question anything. Seems interesting rather than scary.

Technically it is not considered a "mental disorder" but it is part of diagnostic criteria like introversion, nihilism, antagonism, paranoia etc. That it is not a "mental disorder" doesn't negate it as mental disorder. Someone would hold their semantic ground that a mental disorder is the name of the phenomenon, but if someone can be diagnosed 'schizo' for being antagonistic, nihilistic, introverted and having solipsistic delusion it is mental disorder. — introbert

You're getting off track...again. It's far from my original post.

simulation hypothesis doesn’t cause us to question what is real. It’s an assertion with nothing to prove it, ergo junk.

Plus unless you can show a clear difference between a simulation and the real thing then they’re the same and the point is null.

Solipsism isn’t a mental disorder either. Again you are inventing things to make it other than it is.

I don’t I’m well aware of his position and how he’s wrong given modern science discoveries. There is a reason idealism fell out, part of it being that it always leads to solipsism, ie “you’re all that exists”. He could only get around that by asserting some god mind which isn’t convincing.

Faulty premises. Also the word illusion is doing a lot of heavy lifting as the only way illusion holds any sort of weight is if you know what’s reality, which under solipsism you could never do.

Also everything you are perceiving is in the now. Not the past. Even a memory of the past is still in the now. You aren’t imagining a fictional account either but the real thing.

Without any reality as a comparison the word “illusion is meaningless”. Solipsism ASSUMES one’s own mind is sure to exist. While in the process using words, concepts, etc that originate outside of the mind. Solipsism fails to prove the existence is a mind that it assumes to know for sure exists.

None of your points follow either and they assume too much, much like my original post guy did in his link.

Like I said before all arguments for it boil to nonsense since you have to deny solipsism to prove it and rely on things outside of it.

It's not a convention, it's what solipsism IS. Period. Stop making it other than what it is, it's not working and getting off track.

Not to mention all this got way off track from my original post about whether the argument followed or was just nonsense.

It's not, you're just trying to patch it up to be something other than what it really is.

Like people said about my first post with that proof, it's nonsense.

You didn't. None of your logic followed.

I’m not holding it to any sort of standard that is what it is not matter how you dress it up to sound even a little cogent.

It’s just another unprovable and untestable claim just like simulation

That's the insanity of trying to prove it, on top of it being unprovable of course.

It's metaphysical solipsism not the "how can we know" one, because we really can't. WE can't even know if we exist, like I said.

Berkley can argue against and unobserved and unimagined tree all he wants it doesn't make it any less real. It's also why idealism died out I guess and why we follow science. The "if I don't see it it didn't happen or isn't real" is one of the easiest things to disprove.

Everything else you said is irrelevant to the topic.

You are performing a reducio ad absurdum, taking solipsism to it's extreme conclusion to refute it. Indirect realism can be reduced to the absurd by taking it to solipsism. However, solipsism is like indirect reality, it is not completely of the mind, but it is a function of the body.

Pure solipsism is not a challenging philosophical exercise. You don't have to have any JTB about any of the things that you mention, they are merely objects of your creation that mean whatever you want them to. Everything that is, is possibly interpretable by an 'idea of reference' that relates to you. About you or against you. You immediately understand everything as if it orbits around you like a planet around the sun. Better yet, geocentric is more solipsistic than heliocentric.

Obviously some manifestations of solipsism can be deemed false/untrue/dysfunctional, but ultimately it has a power whether you call it will-to-power or something else, that is opposed to group-think, consensus, democracy, fascism, normativity, herd mentality, objectivity, collectivism, state-philosophy, psychiatry, etc. — introbert

Still wrong, again.

This is a key topic in the prevailing ethos of anti-schizophrenia. The first issue is that, of course, solipsism is a phenomenon of indirect realism. Indirect realism is not disproven by the solipsistic extreme that the mind originates all reality, neither is Idealism disproven by the existence of the physical realm. Solipsism is a verifiable fact of 'psychology'. Practical knowledge has been developed through the objectification of solipsism, such as 'theory of mind', therefore, through it's existence what is considered normal psychology has not been taken for granted, and some understanding has been developed of epistemology etc. Arguing solipsism is not true, is like arguing idealism is not true, but the difference is that idealism has developed in the modern by the rejection of manifest irrationalities that occur in nature. Solipsism is true because it resides in all of us, it is part of our bodily power, it can help us and it can hurt us. That it is most noticeable, made an object, through its problematic manifestation, and not really noticed when it is functional, arguing against it is an absurd and ironic rational idealism. Ironic, because one is using solipsism in making solipsism purely an idea your mind can deny, without acknowledging that there is a material basis for it outside your mind that is undeniable. This is like a transcendental idealism, but by trying to transcend solipsism, one confines idealism to rational (normative, deindividuating) thought. Ultimately a disempowering belief. This disempowerment, rejection of solipsist negation of other minds, turns one into a mindless extrovert. A mindless extrovert is a fascist, a mindless introvert (solipsist) is a homeless schizo. The Deleuzian concept can be interpreted that the schizo is an oppressed introvert (lone thinker) in a socius of extroversion (collective doers), is about a broader philosophical project that makes the anti-solipsist into a useful marionette, and the solipsist into a tangled mess of strings that only the most powerful can unravel. — introbert

Not true at all. It's not true just because it resides in all of us. And it definitely isn't a verifiable act of psychology (which suggests the opposite).

Not to mention not of your logic follows or makes any sense.

I don't think anything is indubitable at least from what I've heard other people say. I could doubt this is in english as I might have been mislead a lot of the time.

I don't think we have a learned bias towards needing proof, quite the opposite actually. In fact we fail to notice how much we take for GRANTED in our lives. Like that we exist, we just take it as a given never questioning it, yet when asked to prove it you can't without something self referential or just flat assertions.

Because as far as I see you can't. There is no experiment you can construct that would prove it true because you can't test it. Even argument wise there is no way to prove it, it just assumes you are all there is. You couldn't prove it without invalidating it to begin with.

Which is why I'm heavily doubting not just my memory about what I read those years ago but if they actually did. But all I have is a very strong emotion that he certainly did but no memory of what was said, which means nothing.

But nothing is certain though...so would that mean nothing exists. I mean at the ground level of any sort of system you build you make assumptions or axioms, without that you can't get anywhere.

It's why you can never prove solipsism, though I'm slowing getting over it and seeing how it's not really logical (consistent sure but not something to be taken seriously or at all since it says nothing and advances nothing).

But as I quoted above, those who try to prove it just end up making a whole bunch of assumptions they can't prove, like events only happen if you're looking at it which is nonsense, otherwise car crashes wouldnt happen.

I think you’re missing the point of what’s going on here.

Though I don’t really regard solipsism as highly as in the years past because a lot of the explanations for people who “prove it” are straight nonsense like this:

Solipsism is not a choice, human beings or a human being is even in strict scientific terms a subjective entity, a subject, everything that happens to me is in my own subjective bubble. But, this is not where i see where the problem is at. The problem comes when, if you even come to the realization that solipsism is true, and that no event can exist without you consciously being subjectively aware of it, why would a solipsist or any person, put himself inside a simulated reality that basically restricts him in his wishes, fantasies, and absolute freedom. If you are infact first and foremost, outside of the simulated reality and have absolute freedom to do with yourself whatever you want, restricting yourself to a simulation even if it is self imposed, inside one’s own mind is really hard to understand. Because you would basically go into a span of about 80 years, experiencing even suffering, physical or psychological, being restricted in what you can do, example, no absolute control or freedom over matter, or the mind-matter relationship, i agree that it is hard to understand subjectivity and its logic that way. But, still, that does not negate solipsism. Because you also get to experience amazing beautiful things and extend your freedom further to the point of physical liberation or end which results in death, but you only end your own mind simulation. The whole process of solipsism is that every minute, date, month, year and second is a carefully planned event that must ultimately lead to absolute freedom, that is the end point of solipsism, to be able to do whatever you want, and without your subjectivity in that state ever ending.

but it just seems like you’re assuming you’re the origin which you don’t.

I think that quora post I read years ago is mistake or I was. I mean I you can’t prove solipsism, how can you prove you’re the only mind in existence if you can’t even measure minds, let alone know of somewhere in the universe there is another. Or how do you know you’re not just someone’s dream or simulation. It seems like any attempt to prove it would involve so many assumptions that you can’t back it.

Then there is also that wrinkle about posting it on a public forum for people to read.

And it also assumes that you exist and are thinking and a bunch of other things it can’t prove.

I thought that proof was sketchy. It assumes way too much and the steps don’t even lead to each other.

So I’m wondering what kind of “proof” it’s supposed to be

How does he know other people exist? — Agent Smith

How you know they don't?

Come one man, we're both to old for that nonsense. Of course they exist.

No just that other people exist, I talked with him.

I think it's more like you don't know what you're talking about.

Actually he says he doesn't believe other people don't exist.

Actually after talking with the guy who made that quote I've found he has no idea what he's talking about. He keeps referring to the Many Worlds interpretation which is the least supported view.

Like...dude seems out there:

https://www.quora.com/Does-Physics-say-there-such-a-thing-as-an-Objective-reality/answer/David-Pearce-18?ch=10&oid=127587573&share=e3f024b6&srid=hHqf38&target_type=answer

Who said anything about less than? I keep bringing up energy because it exists at the same level you are trying to dismiss as ‘less than’. You can try to ‘dismiss’ a nightmare, but it still exists as part of your experiences. What you’d be doing is trying to exclude, isolate or ignore the experience by devaluing the information it offers. — Possibility

IT offers no information, it's not real. It has no consequences in reality, it doesn't hurt you, its not energy. It's just a phantom. It does not EXIST.

When we read about a character, we treat them as MORE than the description we have. When we interact with a fictional character, we flesh out the limited information we have AS IF they were a living, thinking, feeling human being. — Possibility

Not always, we remember they aren't real after all.

The way I see it, ‘not real’ doesn’t mean ‘less than’. Real is a quality of existence, but not necessarily a value judgement. Treating the information we have about other people as ‘not necessarily real as such’, in this world of online forums, social media and AI, is arguably more accurate than being dismissive of any interaction unconfirmed as ‘real’. You can’t be certain that anything you read or observe here about me is ‘real’. I am a ‘useful fiction’ to you, whether you recognise that or not, as you are to me. For me, that means I treat you as MORE than the information I have about you, not less. — Possibility

Well you aren't a useful fiction because you are real as am I. I really think you're trying to make what he said out to be better than it actually is. He's pretty much implying others aren't real if you're regarding their existence as a useful fiction. And when you regard something as not real then you open the gate to essentially permitting everything against it, which makes what's on his home page all the more odd.

Not real does mean less than. I mean you don't see legislation or rights for NPCs for fictional characters right?

I’m not arguing against the implication that ‘other people’ aren’t ‘real’ as such, because I don’t think it’s as important as you might think. I’m arguing that what IS ‘real’ with regard to the notion of ‘other people’ is merely evidence or measurements of their existence in potentiality: ‘other people’ exist and are useful (different to convenient) in this non-real, non-verifiable, conceptual or fictional structure in terms of how we interact with the world.

Real does not necessarily determine existence. This is outdated thinking. Energy and other people are far more complex than mere measurement/observation would suggest. Recognising this enables us to manage our uncertainty and prediction error. — Possibility

It's sort of important that they are real since it affects how we treat and regard them. A lot of bad has been done by those who have a habit of making others appear to be less than.

Real does determine existence and I don't know where you got this notion that it is outdated. Never heard anyone suggest that. I'm not even sure how you're dragging energy into this. What is real is what can be determined to exist, that's how we know dreams are not real and can safely dismiss a nightmare (well usually).