It's not that suicidal people aren't aware of the consequences, it's just that the need to escape their misery overpowers their ability to think rationally. It's not immoral, it's temporary insanity. Think of how powerful the force must be in order to override our natural instinct to survive.

I would answer the same. Being a fool is undesirable, even if every other person is a fool. Statement #2 is the only one that gives a man a chance of not being a fool.

@TheMadFool

Right, but believing something to be true doesn't make it true. Personal bias will affect belief, but it won't change the ultimate truth of the matter.

Wearing your lucky T-shirt to a game does cause small changes in the air around you. These small changes get magnified down the causal chain and transforms into a favorable wind/rain that can help your team to win. — TheMadFool

Getting back to the butterfly effect in relation to superstition, I think Efram had it right from the beginning:

There may be a possibility that wearing a certain shirt will have some impact on the game (e.g. you wear blue, someone who knows one of the players sees it while they pass you in the hallway and it puts them in a good mood, they then go and more convincingly encourage the team) but you don't know for sure what impact it will have — Efram

A superstition relies on a certain event having a certain impact, like expecting to experience bad luck if a black cat crosses your path. While the cat may cause you to pause, which later makes the difference in whether or not you step onto the street and get struck by a vehicle, you don't know if the cat's interference will improve the outcome or make it worse.

What's more, they may also believe that Natural Selection (which has God-like qualities) is obsessed with reproduction as it strives to survive. — Rich

Natural Selection isn't a force with a mind or will; it's merely a description of the events that are occurring. Living things reproduce. If a feature is added to a living thing that allows it to live longer and reproduce more, it will eventually replace the version that didn't have that feature.

To me, 'all men are fools' is the bigger insult, because it says that, being a man, I am definitely a fool. 'All fools are men' is fine, because I'm not one of them.

I posted this recently in another discussion about free will:

Did you create yourself? No, you only exist because of some fluke of nature, or the design of some higher power. Did you choose your mother and father? Did you choose your country of birth? Does someone choose to be neglected? Does someone choose to be abused? Does someone choose the beliefs of the society they are born into? No, no, and no.

The very first choice a person makes is a product of their biological make-up, and the sensory experiences they've encountered up to that point, none of which were controlled by that person. Every decision thereafter is based on a combination of instinct, and the perceived results of previous choices. Even your choice to believe or not believe what you are currently reading is based on the experiences you've had and the choices you've made up until now. At the root of that series of choices are inputs over which you had no control. — CasKev

For me, this indicates that free will is illusory, despite the fact that we are able to make choices, for whatever reasons. Is there a way to make the above argument unsound?

I Am Not Myself
(by Kevin Kroft?)

I am not my house.
It is just a place that keeps my body warm and dry.
I am not my car.
It is just a way to get me from point A to B.

I am not my body.
It is just a house for my spirit.
I am not my words.
They are just a vehicle for my thoughts.

I am not Kevin Kroft.
That is just a name some people use to get my attention.
Others use ‘Hey man’ and ‘Sir’
Which are equally accurate.

I am not my thoughts.
I am the awareness of thought.

I did not write this,
But my essence runs through it.

I am compassion, appreciation, and art.
I am love, friendship, and a sense of family.
I am you, and you are me,
And we are as different as we are the same.

Can’t you see the truth?
Seeing is believing,
But to see,
You have to look.

Man, you guys read some really heavy stuff!

I'm currently reading The Broken Eye, by Brent Weeks. :)

@TheMadFool

Even leaving choice in the equation, free will is illusory.

Did you create yourself? No, you only exist because of some fluke of nature, or the design of some higher power. Did you choose your mother and father? Did you choose your country of birth? Does someone choose to be neglected? Does someone choose to be abused? Does someone choose the beliefs of the society they are born into? No, no, and no.

The very first choice a person makes is a product of their biological make-up, and the sensory experiences they've encountered up to that point, none of which were controlled by that person. Every decision thereafter is based on a combination of instinct, and the perceived results of previous choices. Even your choice to believe or not believe what you are currently reading is based on the experiences you've had and the choices you've made up until now. At the root of that series of choices are inputs over which you had no control.

The whole time I was picking, I was getting ready to defend myself.

Morbid, but funny!

@Thanatos Sand Skin colour doesn't have any direct impact on the ability to reproduce.

It was homophobic as you presented Gays and homosexuality as a result of a "bug in the reproduction system," making it less natural than being born from the reproduction system functioning normally — Thanatos Sand

How is it not less natural in the context of evolution? Continuation of a species requires procreation, and homosexuality removes the desire to couple with the opposite sex. I suppose a 100% homosexual human population could make it work, because we're smart enough to know that we will cease to exist unless we find some way around our lack of sexual desire. However, it is hard to imagine a 100% homosexual dog population deciding to couple with the opposite sex, without the instinctive drive.

I hasten to add that no one is implying a value-judgement. Just a mechanism. — Michael Ossipoff

Sorry, I didn't expect my statement to be taken as homophobic. It is meant to be anything but; just a plausible alternative as to why homosexuality hasn't been naturally selected out of existence, despite having no direct benefit as far as reproduction is concerned.

Given that homosexuality exists, and those who practice it seem to be merely following their natural instincts, harming no one in the process, there is no reason to criticize it.

Heterosexuality is not explained yet it is taken for granted because of it obvious benefits to gene transmission/reproduction. — Andrew4Handel

Is it possible that homosexuality is just a bug in the human reproductive program, rather than an emergent trait with evolutionary implications? Heterosexuality is obviously the normal instinct, as it is essentially required for continuation of the species. Homosexuality may just be a flaw in the system that occurs when a human is first forming, where a male brain gets paired with female sex organs, or vice versa. There is no hereditary component other than continuation of the chance of the flaw occurring, because there are no homosexual sex organs, only mismatched bodies and brains.

Felt a bit of a mental drag yesterday. First one in the past few weeks. Mostly due to tiredness, I think, being up with my 18-month-old son for about 2 hours during the night. Maybe too much blueberry picking too...!

If change equates to suffering, you're in for a world of hurt. If there's one constant in this life, it's change.

Lately, I've been trying to focus on having less attachment to identity and beliefs, so that change meets less internal resistance. I'm finding it much easier to accept reality that way.

Also, if you can properly sort through the needs and wants in life, you can concentrate on the needs, and spend whatever resources you have left on the wants.

Yes, I experience this quite frequently - I just have to think about how we're hurtling through space on a spinning sphere while we walk and talk and go about our business; or how all of these tiny particles somehow manage to not just hold themselves together, but organize themselves in such a way that allows me to type on this computer.

It's a case of being too intelligent for our own good. Without language and science, I think we would be much less aware of the absurdity of what is actually going on, and wouldn't even develop thoughts of senselessness or meaninglessness. We would just go on satisfying our needs and wants, content with what we could observe with our natural senses.

I regard the anxiety we are able to leave behind when drinking to be part of the human condition, or part of the condition of alienation that everyone experiences. That is, it's a society-wide phenomenon that is not amenable to self-help. — jamalrob

Not so true, at least in my case. I agree that the sense of alienation forms in most everyone, but that it can be removed with conscious effort.

I used to drink alcohol to loosen up and have fun. Unfortunately, during my very stressful marriage - a time when I was managing depression via medication only - social drinking turned into occasional binge drinking. This put further strain on an already difficult situation. As you probably know, antidepressants don't always mix well with alcohol, and one of these episodes led to a nearly fatal suicide attempt.

Despite this traumatic experience, like any good alcoholic, I tried to justify social drinking for several years. It continued to help me loosen up and have fun, but brought with it its share of problems.

It wasn't until I almost lost my current girlfriend that I realized the shortcut to loosening up wasn't worth the potential cost. But I wasn't willing to give up on having fun! So I went through a period where I consistently pushed myself past the boundaries of social discomfort. A big part of this involved eliminating self-judgment and judgment of others. With judgment removed, I felt that I could be myself - I could say and do the things I would when I was feeling a good alcohol buzz.

I'm not saying drinking alcohol is inauthentic, but it comes with cost and risk. And wouldn't you rather put in the work to be authentic all the time?

Or you could put it to the test with a poll. Then you could make me eat my Last Words.

No chance in our lifetime. I think it is relatively easy to formulate a solution that would benefit everyone equally. The trouble is that you would have to peacefully convince all the rich that they can be happier with the bare essentials.

I think alcohol is a temporary shortcut to removing inhibitions. If you work on your inhibitions by addressing the reasons they exist, you shouldn't need alcohol to open up and 'be yourself'. Plus alcohol brings with it the risk of hangover, drunken mistakes, not to mention anger and depression in some people.

@Hanover Another rule suggestion: Every post should have a Yes/No poll attached to it, so people can vote on whether or not the post is worthy of being The Last Word. For example, @Sir2u's post "THE END" would surely attract a majority of 'No' votes, thus disqualifying it from being The Last Word.

I think for many people depression starts with the brain — Heister Eggcart

Though some brains may start out being more susceptible to mental illness, I lean toward most depression starting with a build-up of negative experiences that aren't properly addressed at the time of occurrence, combined with an unconstructive belief system. Emotions and thoughts get repressed, and the subconscious mind replays them within the context of the beliefs, prolonging the effect of the initial events.

The brain's malfunctioning can sometimes be corrected using medication, but I believe this to be a case of treating the symptom, rather than the underlying problem. A more permanent approach involves revisiting the negative experiences, and examining the belief systems that have allowed the adverse effects to live on.

The question for me is whether the brain can return to its properly functioning state once the damage has been done, or will it need to rely on the mental crutch of antidepressants indefinitely. My gut feel is that the brain can repair itself as the negative experiences and beliefs are addressed. The tricky part is figuring out what may be at play at the subconscious level. Developing awareness of thought and emotion, and having someone to guide you through them, can be quite helpful in this regard.

And we've now reached a point where natural selection pretty much no longer applies to humans. The 'weak' humans end up being raised into adulthood, with just as much opportunity to reproduce as the 'strong' ones. Unless we start picking and choosing who can have children, I don't foresee any further advancement of our physical and mental abilities.

This sounds like a perfect time to live in the present if you're disturbed by the past and future. — Question

I agree, though maintaining a present focus can be very unpleasant when in the grip of mental illness. The underlying cause of depression can be based in past experience, but working at a subconscious level, leaving you with a miserable present experience, with no obvious immediate cause. The tendency is to try to escape the present through various means, be it excessive sleeping, alcohol and drugs, television, video games, or other activities requiring little motivation and effort.

is the depression causing the anxiety or the anxiety causing the depression? — Question

Though I have little experience with anxiety, I could imagine how having to deal with it for an extended period of time could lead to depression. Left untreated, with no resolution in sight, it is easy to see how someone could start to have feelings of hopelessness.

Having experienced major depression for several years, without developing problems with anxiety, I doubt that a strong causal relationship exists in that direction. When depressed, the tendency is to shut down and escape the present. There isn't much of a future focus, aside from the loss of hope regarding positive change.

As for the placebo effect, I can see how it could apply to someone in a depressed state. For example, telling someone they are being given an effective antidepressant, and instead substituting a sugar pill. The expectation and hope tied to the possibility of recovery could have an effect on the brain's functioning, even though there has been no real change in present circumstances.

Took a surprise vacation day today - it was wonderful! Just so happened to be my daughter's ninth birthday too. Great day all round. Nighty night!

I don't think I would attribute depression to lack of belief in anything. I think everyone has beliefs of some kind, and it is more the gap between beliefs about how things should be, and how they really are, that leads to mental illnesses like anxiety and depression. For me, depression feels like it is rooted in the past, while anxiety has a future feel to it. I think the hopelessness of depression comes from past experiences conflicting with learned expectations and instinctive desires. There's a bit of a future element, in that depressed people tend to feel like the possibility of positive change is very low. The worry and dread associated with anxiety is tied to expecting bad things to come. While the anxiety develops based on past experiences, it is very much forward-looking.

Definitely not stormy here in Sudbury! Blue skies, and bluer blueberries! Too bad I have to look at it all through my office window at work... :s

I don't buy into the butterfly effect. The flapping of a butterfly's wings is inconsequential when compared with the larger forces at play. Put a thousand flapping butterflies in front of a train, and see what kind of effect they have on its forward motion. Of course, there's always the case of the straw that broke the camel's back, but that camel's back was likely to break in a few minutes even without the last straw.

@Nils Loc I'm now more troubled by TranscendedRealms and his 'packets'.

My girlfriend thinks that's just gruesome.

Wow! I just noticed that both discussion threads I started have exactly 43 posts. What are the odds?

See @Sir2u? We all win again! I'm beginning to think that's the point of this thread - so we can all feel like winners... X-)

There are many planets that have no life on them and we still appreciate them. — Andrew4Handel

Yes, but given the choice, on which planet would you choose to live?

Your view seems to depend entirely on the continuation of human consciousness. — Andrew4Handel

I think these principles apply to an individual's finite existence as well. If one decides to continue living, they will naturally want to make that existence as pleasurable as possible. To me, the most pleasurable life is one where I have persistent peace of mind, with as little physical suffering as possible, sprinkled with moments of joy and physical pleasure. The continued existence of other life, made possible through evolution, undeniably contributes to those goals.

People can be discontented with any aspect of existence. (Especially a lack of purpose and meaning). (Me for example) — Andrew4Handel

On a side note, I currently believe that the brain may have over-evolved, in that humans feel some unshakeable need for purpose and meaning, creating a conflict between what we think should exist, and how the world really operates. If we can accept that life really is meaningless, we can shift our focus toward satisfying our instinctive biological needs and desires (food, water, shelter, family, community, procreation).

@Hanover I think we should add a rule to this game - you win if no one posts something meaningful after you within 24 hours.