the good can be highly subjective — Andrew4Handel

I think the good for humans is mostly objective in this case, if we can agree that the minimization of suffering and maximization of contentment are good.

I'll continue with the idea that in the absence of evolution, we would eventually be left with a barren landscape, and cannibalism.

There is an undeniable connection we humans feel with nature, especially when it comes to other living things. I think it is fair to say that the existence of plants and animals makes life more enjoyable.

Also, since we have things other than humans to eat, we are not left wondering if we are going to be the next meal, which I'm sure would lead to mental suffering of some kind.

He could have said that. I don't see any clear and present danger in admitting agnosticism. Yet, he didn't. Why? — TheMadFool

Why the cryptic silence? Perhaps he didn't have a strong opinion on the matter, and felt there was nothing to be gained from such a disclosure. Admitting that you don't know something is seen as a weakness to some. It's easier and probably wiser to reflect the question back to the asker, and let them find the same answer that you did; or simply to reply 'No comment'.

God wasn't used to justify any atrocity in the name of religion back in Buddha's day, so how do you suppose that he would have come to believe that? — Agustino

It's like @TheMadFool said - he could have anticipated the formation of extremism.

I think evolution can be regarded in a positive way if we can agree that the continuance of life in general is considered to be good.

If organisms don't adapt to the changing environment, they will eventually die off. With the elimination of various life forms, the world would become less diverse, and hence less enjoyable. Imagine an Earth with no flowers, no birds, and no butterflies. Nature suddenly holds less appeal, and probably loses some of its power to soothe the soul. Taken to the extreme, think of Earth with no life other than humans - a barren landscape, and nothing to eat but other humans!

Like usual, you're taking the Buddha out of his context and bringing him in a modern context. — Agustino

Perhaps he was just a very advanced thinker for his time, and wanted to bring about peaceful revolution, by providing a less harmful unprovable alternative. With no God to justify atrocious acts in the name of religion, and no despair from the meaningless of life without God, there was just the notion that bad behavior would eventually lead to bad consequences, and good deeds and intent would be rewarded at some point. "And by the way everybody, Karma is going to follow you to your next life, so don't think you'll be off the hook when you die."

I wouldn't say the brain/mind is digital, because that suggests every operation is a yes or a no, which disregards degrees of intensity. Intensity brings with it a sense of the infinite - as in, between two points, there is a space that can be subdivided again and again. This level of complexity couldn't be calculated based on simple ones and zeroes. Take pain for example, which can range from mildly discomforting to excruciating. You can rate pain as 7 on a scale of 1 to 10, but the true value is likely 7.128329...

I think, like us, he could neither prove nor disprove God. He probably thought that people needed some form of moral guidance, and that Karma and rebirth were more believable than an all-powerful being that never communicates with us.

How Many Ways

I can love you in a car.
I can love you from afar.
I cannot love you less than that.
I love you like I love my cat.

I can love you in a house.
Like cheese is loved by a fat old mouse.
I can love you on a shelf.
I love you more than life itself.

I can love you on a bed.
I can love you in your head.
Don't tell me I can't love you now.
Tis the only way that I know how.

I can love you right up close.
Cuz you're the one I love the most.
Right up there with my mom and daughter.
Just like Sponge Bob loves his water.

I cannot love you with a hat,
I cannot feel you wearing that.
I cannot love you with a glove,
I just can't bear conditional love.

I can love you here and now.
Hear my heart go Boom Boom Pow!

@Reformed Nihilist

Yeah, I find medication is useful for getting someone to a place where they can start to work on the things that may have caused the depression in the first place, or where they feel motivated to do the things that help you be healthier mentally and physically.

I've been on and off of various meds (and have gone through electro-convulsive therapy). Some worked for a while, others not so well. I am currently on a mix of meds that brought me back from my last visit to hell. I also get rTMS treatments (repetitive trans-cranial magnetic stimulation) on a monthly basis. Though I feel as if I've dealt with the major issues that contributed to my experience of depression, I'm reluctant to remove the meds and stop the rTMS, just in case depression can occur in the absence of any mental/emotional causative factors. I tend to believe that most cases of depression have mental/emotional root causes, and that some people's brains are more susceptible to the damage they can do. Also, I wonder if some of the damage to the brain becomes permanent, like smoking does to the lungs, and requires ongoing medical treatment of one form or another.

Made this for my office wall at work... :)

Do Your Best

Pacquiao is an old fart too, who has lost 4 of his last 9 fights.

So the cure isn't to fool yourself into thinking there is actually some meaning, but to realize that the search for the type of meaning that is universal, objective and singular is not necessary, and bound to lead to sorrow. That's where the emotional part comes in. People have evolved something called habituation, which means that no matter how good or bad we have it, we always end up getting used to what our current state is, and wanting more. It should be obvious what the evolutionary pressure for that is. That means that for the most part, people feel a vague sense, often unattached to anything they can put their finger on, that something is missing. It is common to associate this generalized feeling of dissatisfaction to a lack of meaning. I would suggest that simply being aware that such an effect is happening eases it's unpleasantness, and over time, can make it disappear. It worked that way for me anyways. I am now about as content with my life as I could imagine, and don't feel "existential angst" at all, ever. — Reformed Nihilist

@Reformed Nihilist Your above statements provided some support for the ways I've started to think over the past few months. As you know, it can be quite comforting to encounter like-minded individuals. Until joining this forum, though I knew my thoughts and feelings were not unique, I still felt very alone in my ways of thinking. In my immediate vicinity, there is not a ready supply of people who understand and want to talk about philosophy as it relates to mental health.

Also, it's encouraging to know that someone else has had similar experiences, and has come out the other end feeling quite at peace.

Yes, until a few weeks ago, I had relied on cognitive behavioral therapy, and a number of self-help writers, in dealing with the major depression I experienced for over a decade. They were very helpful in getting me to a certain point, but nothing seemed to properly address the residual sense of existential depression I was feeling. It feels like I'm back on the right path.

In the midst of my battle with depression, I experienced a period of about a year and a half where I felt pretty much untouchable. During this time, I was very creative, and highly motivated to help others. I formed a Facebook group, to try and help others who might be suffering mentally. I think a lot of it is still quite applicable to most people, whether in the depths of depression, or just feeling like they could be happier.

If anyone feels like checking it out, here is the link:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/176361555857264/

McGregor will win. Age will be a big factor. Conor will be faster and stronger. He has never been knocked out, and has finished 18 of his 21 professional wins by KO or TKO.

Mayweather hasn't fought professionally in almost two years, and hasn't knocked anyone out since 2011. And don't forget - he has a tiny head!

Thanks! I believe being a part of the forum, and bouncing ideas around, has helped my mental health somewhat, by developing a healthier outlook on the way I view life. The low-grade depressive thoughts and feelings I had been having seem to be gradually subsiding.

If @Reformed Nihilist is right, I may have found a couple more pieces of the puzzle of achieving lasting peace of mind... :)

Oh... Oh... Don't stop Tiff...

@Sapientia

Let's see if you can 'Hanover' this one...

Medusa

Damn you Medusa!
You've turned me to stone again.
I'm trying to run away,
But my feet won't move.

Damn you Medusa!
You've turned me to stone again.
My brain is dark and dense,
And I can't find a reason to leave.

Damn you Medusa!
You've turned me to stone again.
A hulking mass in the pit of my stomach,
Too heavy and large to vomit.

Damn you Medusa!
You've turned me to stone again.
My heart has turned cold and dark,
Never able to love another.

Damn you Medusa!
You've turned me to stone again.
This lava-filled rock in my jeans,
That's ready to blow apart.

But look!
I spit in your face,
And you've turned me back to flesh!

we've barely scratched the surface of what can be known — TheMadFool

I think there's a big difference between what is unknown, and what is supernatural. Despite scientific explanation, I can't really understand how tiny atoms organize themselves in such a way that allows me to exist, but there's no denying that I am here, along with billions of other humans.

I tend to believe in what can be repeated, or verified under controlled conditions. Oh, 6 is your lucky number? Roll a die 100 times, and see if it comes up more than the other five numbers. Then roll it another 100 times, and check the results again.

As another example, I don't buy into out-of-body experiences. I believe people experience what really feels like an out-of-body experience. Our brain is quite powerful and imaginative, and is capable of providing us with that sort of sensation. But let's hold up some flash cards while you are 'out-of-body', and see how many you can recall.

If there were a God, we would have reached 18 in his eyes a long time ago, probably after the World Wars (the early teens, hormones raging).

This is not the reason God doesn't give us evidence of his existence. Even when kids move away, parents still keep in contact, because they love them so much.

Here's a thought - maybe God died when he stopped communicating with humans, and we've been left to fend for ourselves.

Hahaha! You guys are hilarious! Too bad you'll never win. I'll sneak the last word in while you are all busy pleasuring each other.

Poetry Time!

Feel

Nobody feels anything,
Numbed by need
And greed
And thought.

Wanting,
Consuming,
Filling a hole
That has no end.

Hurting,
Self-destructing,
Seeking things
That have no life.

Who’s to blame?

Accuse not
Your enemies.
Blinded by a
World of madness,
They never had a chance.

Who’s to blame?

Condemn not yourself.
What hope
Did you have
With a mere
Five senses?

Stop the blame.

Strip away the me,
Strip away the you,
And touch and see
The love and good
Inside us all.

Blind the mind’s I,
And start seeing.
Kill the ego,
And start Being.
Nobody feels everything!

@daldai

Let's see if I'm getting closer to understanding your situation.

You have logically concluded that there is no grand purpose or meaning to life.
You have a desire for deeper relationships, but your ways of thinking isolate you from others, and prevent you from forming meaningful connections.
You feel as though you have nothing to offer beyond basic social interaction and sexual urges.

Since you've decided to keep living in spite of the meaninglessness of life, I imagine your goal would be to minimize the amount of suffering you experience, such as the feelings of isolation and loneliness.

I think we all start off as loving and compassionate beings, likely as a result of our instinctive need for community, family, and procreation. I think these natural feelings may be buried under your nihilistic thoughts of meaninglessness. While you can't ignore hunger, thirst, and sleep for an extended period of time without the survival instinct kicking in, things like relationships can be ignored indefinitely. Though doing this may not threaten your immediate survival, it definitely goes against human nature, and will make your life much more unpleasant.

Unfortunately, unless someone shares your strong nihilistic views, they will likely not be satisfied with superficial interaction. So you have to find a way to engage more deeply in life, without it feeling fake or forced.

Perhaps if you are able to look at relationships as a biological need, you will be more willing to accept people with differing beliefs, and engage in the sorts of things that other people value, despite them being illogical.

There you go trying to win again. Lucky for you, I'm going to sleep for a while now...

Cheer up buttercup! :D

I guess we all win then... Hurray!

let's suppose that during the great race of life, another spermatozoid than the one that led to me today reached the ovum first, what would have happened ? Probably, I would have been physically different but would it always have been "me" ? Would I be "born" ? Would my conscience have emerged like today ? — Julian

If that spermatozoid hadn't reached the ovum first, 'you' wouldn't be here. 'You' are a unique combination of that spermatozoid and that egg. It is the same as if your parents never had sex in the first place, or if you were aborted in the womb. Either way, we wouldn't be reading your post in this forum.

OK, that's reassuring.

I've played soccer for more than 20 years. I gave it up for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai kickboxing, but now I do all three!

how do I let other people into "my world" and have a positive effect on them — daldai

What do you do or say that tends to push people away, or have a negative effect on them?

Is there a preference as to what is posted here? Are certain types of posts discouraged? Should posts in this thread be humorous and/or thought-provoking? I need to know the rules before I post something here... :-x

@larkspur

I think you may be on to something there... Without being able to express concepts using language, it's hard to imagine the brain reaching a point where it would question the meaning of life. Without language, I think humans would still be capable of creating (e.g. making a fire, inventing the wheel, art), but I don't know if we would be able to think about abstract concepts without having language in order to tie advanced ideas together.

I started a discussion recently that I think addresses what you are asking. In it, I wrote:

Recently, I came across some writings by Peter Wessel Zapffe, that seemed to ring true with my current core beliefs. What I got from it was that humans are basically animals with highly evolved intelligence and consciousness, who develop coping mechanisms - mainly rejection of negative thought, anchoring on items or ideas of importance, and distraction - to deal with the absurdity of life. In the absence or rejection of such coping mechanisms, one can end up over-thinking life, and searching for meaning where no such meaning exists.

My hope is that the same 'over-evolved' brain that finds despair in lack of meaning can move past this dilemma in a positive way. Perhaps if I can accept that life has no great purpose (or none that will be undeniably proven during my lifetime), I can be content with focusing on satisfying what seem to be our basic instinctive needs - food, shelter, family, community, love, freedom from pain, etc. — CasKev

Here is the discussion link if you want to see what others had to say in response:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/1543/achieving-stable-peace-of-mind

The more I look at things in this way, the more it seems to make sense. I think I can feel my beliefs shifting toward this outlook, and I think it is having a positive effect on my overall mood. I have gone through major changes in belief in the past - via cognitive behavioral therapy and the like - so I realize it is still very early on. I guess time will tell whether the effect will strengthen, and whether it will be lasting.

I think Descartes got it backwards. It should be 'I am, therefore I think'. You are your brain. You are attached to your brain because the physical connections are self-contained. You have no physical connection to other brains, so how could you be attached to them?

The sense of 'I' comes from the brain. There is no 'I' until conscious awareness forms in the brain, and there is no 'I' once you pass away. I'm not sure exactly when conscious awareness develops, but I'm guessing it's some time during early infancy.

Also, think about this... Where would your sense of 'I' be without memories, especially long-term ones? The reason you don't remember being a baby or an infant is because long-term memories don't start to take hold until well past the toddler years. Our sense of 'I' becomes more complex and ingrained as we experience more of life, and start to accumulate more in our memory banks. Strangely, we start to feel like we are separate from our body and brain, that we must be something more than just another biological creature.

Why can't you choose to believe or not believe? — Lone Wolf

Your beliefs are what they are at any given point in time. They are based on what you've been taught, what you've observed, and what you've experienced so far. I can hope that there is a higher power as much as I want, but it won't change the fact that I don't believe there to be one. I can't suddenly will myself to believe something different.

I have not seen anything in the study of genetics that forces one to think a certain way or not to. — Lone Wolf

If you were to take two infants and expose them to the exact same experiences, there would still be at minimum subtle differences in behavior, emotions, beliefs, and thought processes. If not attributable to external factors, the differences must be due to genetic make-up.

What would you consider to be strong evidence of a creator? — Lone Wolf

If there were a being powerful enough to create us, I imagine it would have the ability to communicate directly with us. So I suppose I would need to see and hear such a being to believe in it.

What makes the lack of believing in a superior being mentally and physically superior? — Lone Wolf

I don't believe I said that... I did say that believing in a higher power could make a person mentally stronger.

Is it truly stronger and superior to declare oneself completely free of dependencies? — Lone Wolf

I guess that depends on your view of life. In the animal kingdom, survival, procreation, and minimization of suffering seem to be the driving factors when it comes to behavior. When you add the human element, I think you could exchange thriving for surviving. So whatever allows you to thrive physically and mentally makes you superior.

Attractive looks and healthy reproductive organs make you superior when it comes to procreation. Intelligence and charisma can be useful in thriving financially. Exercise and proper diet help you thrive physically.

For some, belief in a higher power makes them mentally stronger. Unfortunately, you can't choose to believe or not believe - it's a function of your genetic make-up and your life experiences. I currently don't believe in a higher power or an afterlife. That won't change until I am presented with strong evidence of such, or at least a very convincing argument.

Then maybe what you need is a worldview instead of a bag of mind tricks. — Galuchat

My mind seems to have trouble finding satisfaction in a worldview, when part of me can't seem to find the value in a finite existence. However, having decided to continue living (mostly to avoid causing suffering to the people who care about me), I'm trying to do the things that keep the major depression at bay, and I think the mind tricks do more good than harm.

Plus, no one in this thread is claiming to be an enlightened master or an expert in this somewhat murky subject. Looking for the questions first. If any answers turn up, then that's a bonus. — 0 thru 9

Yes, just trying to 'Solve for Happy' (Mo Gawdat), without relying on a belief in grand purpose, or any sort of afterlife. It continues to amaze me that despite the astounding advances in technology, no one has figured out a sure-fire way to achieve lasting peace of mind. I've learned a lot of skills that have at least minimized the mental suffering, but I would pay almost every last cent I have to be rid of the last traces of depressed thinking and feeling.

Most of it is stolen from here. — unenlightened

Very interesting interview. What I get from it is that instead of just 'being', the brain gets caught up in 'becoming' something more, and protecting what we have 'become' so far. Our basic survival instinct mistakenly applies itself to our created identity, which we are constantly trying to improve, never being totally satisfied with where we are at any point in time. The constant wanting for material things that many of us experience is reflected inward, by always wanting to 'be' more.

Thanks to all for the excellent discussion.

Like still having an identity with boundaries and walls, but being conscious of the necessity of doors and windows in those mental walls. — 0 thru 9

I think this is very much in the spirit of what I am proposing - being conscious of identity and how it formed; knowing what comprises the mostly immovable foundation, and moving along the spectrum of need versus choice, to what lies in the realm of completely flexible options; being open to new information and reconsideration of what we believe to be true; and making choices that truly benefit self and others.

Perhaps 'discard' is not the right word. I don't think it's possible to completely erase a sense of identity. The intent is to be aware of its existence; analyze how and why it formed; to identify the components that are self-defeating or cause suffering and discard those; and to realize that identity should be more like a work of art, a collection of choices that enrich your life and that of others.

Is this overly optimistic, or achievable given the right set of circumstances?

It is my feminine side that has a liking to care for and help support 'fallen angels' if they so choose to accept, those people I find are suffering unnecessarily and it hurts me to see that. — TimeLine

What do you consider to be a 'fallen angel', and what sort of support do you typically offer?