Gettier came up with an interesting challenge to naive interpretations of JTB, but the literal title of his paper still doesn't actually dismantle JTB. You'll need to give more arguments than just "well Russell said it too" I'm afraid. — Artemis

Well, you've now introduced the idea of "naivety" to JTB's. Some some beliefs are naïve, hence not really JTB. What beliefs are naïve as opposed to non-naïve?

Which you still haven't thoroughly justified. — Artemis

I'm saying that knowledge does not have a strict definition, you say that it is JTB. I cannot give you a thorough justification of anything.

I can give you more examples: A person born 10,000 years ago has JTB that the Earth is the center of the Universe, that stars are diamonds and that when he dies he'll go back to a supreme being. That's surely JTB and knowledge for that time. We would not call it knowledge today.

What else? I mean, almost everything we thought of prior to enlightenment was false. Things don't go down because that's "the natural order", there are not corpuscles (miniscule concrete solid atoms), Kings do not have divine right, etc., etc.

Back then they were JTB, no question. Today we wouldn't say these things are knowledge. But what about our beliefs now? They could be rendered false in a few decades. So we would have no knowledge.

"But what does it mean to be justified? And that's a sticky question indeed. — Artemis

It is.

I'm familiar with Gettier's work. But as far as I understand it, it really challenges more the concept of justification and notions of absolute and absolutely ascertainable truth. — Artemis

There's a few ways to interpret the paper and much subsequent literature on it. But the title is literally Is Justified True Belief Knowledge? He gives examples with coins and a friend in Barcelona, but I think it is correct in saying that JTB is not knowledge, it's not the rock solid definition as was assumed. Though Russell pointed this out in the 1920's, and was mostly ignored.

you acknowledge fallibility when asserting knowledge claims. That doesn't mean you don't have strict criteria for "knowledge," but that you may or may not actual know what you think you know. — Artemis

That's good to me. It's a sound attitude to have.

It's not that we can't speak about knowledge or fallibility, it's just that these words don't have precise meanings. But we speak of things that lack precision very frequently. So it's not a problem for "knowledge" talk.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by alchemy. — Artemis

The beliefs that came prior to modern chemistry. Turning lead into gold, life elixir etc. Now considered mostly pseudoscience, though maybe not all of it.

And this one too:

https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Hope-C-I-Interventions-II-Updated-ebook/dp/B00HFA93N8/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=killing+hope&qid=1635633208&sprefix=killing+hope%2Caps%2C228&sr=8-2

It's excellent, but brutal. It's essentially Smedley Butler of over again, in MANY countries.

This is a week old but:

Imagine you watch the finals in the NBA and team A beats team B. You saw it and reached this conclusion. Unbeknownst to you, what you were watching was a replay of a previos game in which the same team wins (team A) against the same opponent (team B). In the actual finals team A does beat team B, but you were watching a replay, not the actual game. So you had justified true belief, but it wasn't knowledge. — Manuel

Mostly the latter, though. — Artemis

Outside of mathematics, I don't know of a single word which has an easy definition. A dictionary will give you the most simple idea, but the concept is extremely expansive.

Is my favorite colour knowledge? Does the itch I feel in my arm knowledge? Is alchemy knowledge? Do I know that a comet won't hit me (or anyone) in the head today?

Etc. It soon becomes way too slippery for a strict definition, IMO.

Why in the world not? — Artemis

What are you asking:

Why isn't knowledge justified true belief or why can't it be defined by a strict set of criteria?

Yes it is.

But I think we have to distinguish between the policy makers and those on the levers of power as opposed to the general population. It's those in power who set the agenda, regardless of what the people actually want.

Granted, there are times when the population can be stirred into hysteria (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq) due to very tried and true PR methods. And there's obviously a very ugly history in terms of its foundations - and that goes for most of the Americas and much of the rest of the nation states in the world too.

But yes, it is one and continues to be the World's sole super power per military might. It was at its most powerful post WWII.

Pretty much. :up:

Currently reading:

My View of the World - Erin Schrödinger

An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding - David Hume

Almost done with:

Ducks, Newsburyport - Lucy Ellmann

Yeah. It's an important aspect of a massive change in political ideology that is still with us to this day. I haven't read the book yet, but know a little about such ideas, if a politician says he/she upholds "family values", then that's an excuse to not do anything for anybody in terms of implementing laws that could help people in need. Why? Because they have a family to support them.

But it's even deeper than that. I have to read that book to get a better understanding of what's involved.

No. It has to do with an economic system dating back to the late 70's in which economic policies were forced down people's throat under the guise of freedom, etc. And much more, long story.

The books I mentioned above, plus @Maw and @StreetlightX's suggestions will give you a good idea on neoliberalism, if you're interested.

Sounds right up my alley. :up:

Ah, cool. The idea of the family used as excuse for implementing market discipline kind-of thing?

I'll be sure to check it Cooper out.

Many thanks!

If I don't remember incorrectly, you read Quinn Slobodian's Globalists, which was an excellent dissection of Neoliberalism. It led me to other fantastic books on the topic, particularly Jessica Whyte's Morals of the Market and then Philip Mirowski's Never Let a Serious Crisis go To Waste as well as Wassernman's The Marginal Revolutionaries, which is an intellectual history of the Austrian School.

I got a decent picture on Neoliberalism. Nevertheless, I was looking to reading something similar to Slobodian's book, that kind of quality. Do any come to mind?

I like my phenomenology simple, which is why I really like Tallis here. He doesn't call it "phenomenology", but that's what he seems to do.

The problem from the outset is one that continues to plague us even if we know better already, for over 100 years: we assume that by "matter" we mean what was referred to as "dead and stupid" matter. We perceive matter as solid, when we see tables and chairs or trees and statues. Yet we know that deep down, matter is insubstantial not solid at all.

And then we have a brain, from which our minds emerge and we can do phenomenology. We discover that this specific matter "in the head" has intentionality, which can consider objects outside of the given context.

Furthermore we can "tear them apart" from where we see them (a flower in a garden) and analyze that flower in the context of its color compared to this other flower in some garden in a different part of the world.

The puzzles come in, at least for me, is when we try to think away these sense qualities and try to imagine what's left. It becomes an object of the intellect of sorts, but we intuit that there has to be something behind these qualities which we can't perceive.

In any case, there's lots of rich territory here to explore.

Wonderwall - Oasis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hzrDeceEKc

They've been toning it down as of late, it's more difficult to defend absurd claims in light of the evidence.

Subjective experiences are not evidential, not admissible in the Court of Mikey as evidence; the only evidence which is admissible is objective in nature, and perceptible by those other than the claimant. — Michael Zwingli

I agree.

Many people do not. You hear people speaking of "my truth" or "it's true to me" all the time. Yeah, such statements aren't suitable for logic, given the context. But people will continue to use it as evidence.

proof must be phenomenologically physical by definition, meaning that the phenomenon cited as proof must obey the laws of physics and be measurable by instrumentation, and so natural, — Michael Zwingli

Yes.

If there is a God it would have to be a natural and/or physical being.

I tend to agree. We seem to demand everything have a causal explanation. But what if something just don't have any? For example:

That something can come from absolutely nothing. We cannot conceive of how this could be possible, but it may.

But this would move us from your OP.

Manchin is real piece of shit.

Who gives a fuck if your laughing all the way to the bank if your daughter and/or grandkids are totally fucked. Because, baring a massive change, they will be.

He did. But common sense is not easy to tease out.

I think believing in God at one time during our evolutionary history made sense and was even rational. It's an attempt at an explanation for existence. Now those arguments aren't nearly as persuasive or good.

So early belief is in some respects easier to think about than modern belief in terms of what one uses to explain certain phenomena.

And I forgot to add, why don't people ask about the devil?

I mean really. The opposite of an all good being.

Yes. I mean, part of the problem is that if you "what is God? And please, don't give me the All Wise, All Noble argument." What they usual say, in my experience, are very, very, very nebulous ideas, that verge on not being meaningful at all.

Like the people who say "I believe in a Higher Power." "Ok, but what is that?" "Something bigger than me and you." "Uh, yeah, many things are bigger than me, what do you have in mind?" "Something beyond us", etc.

So yeah, something very nebulous, very weird and very big may exist. It doesn't make sense.

Well, to the extent that God is made up we can proceed down the following path:

I'll not go over the "flying spaghetti monster" argument, but let's say that I believe there's a Goddess not a God. My neighbor believes that there is a cosmic turtle. My other neighbor thinks we are in the dreams of giant. My friend thinks that there is a supreme number, which rules over all numbers, etc.

But then, who is right? They all claim to believe as strongly as anyone in the planet, and all have had profound experiences that reveal such truths to them.

So we can postulate an infinite amount of God(s), with the same legitimacy as the God of the Christians. The thing is, we cannot disprove things, we can say at most that they're extremely unlikely. I can't disprove we aren't in The Matrix, nor that the whole world came into existence 5 seconds ago. Why? Because they could be the case.

But if the "original God" is as likely as anything else I've said, then I don't think you should assign a good likelihood such a being exists at all.

They take him to be saying that he denies consciousness. Dennett always says, he's not, and adds "Consciousness exists, obviously, but it's not what most people think it is." So Dennett and those I mentioned must be talking about two different things.

Yeah, red or sour or music is nothing more than things we perceive as red, things that taste sour and things that sound like music, but I find them to be very important.

Honestly, it doesn't matter much to me, in the sense that I find other people much more interesting than Dennett. I think you are interpreting him a bit too charitably, but that's fine. I could be misunderstanding him like others.

It looks to me like Dennett style approaches, shared to some extent by the Churchlands and even more radically by Rosenberg, try to step over "the hard problem". But there's plenty of hard problems in philosophy, not "only" experience.

As I said I take him to be denying that there are experiential entities, qualia, over and above the qualities that we find in things. I don't see how Dennett could seriously be thought to be denying that there are qualities that we routinely encounter and are aware of; tastes. colours, textures and so on. To deny that would be insane, and I don't believe Dennett is insane. — Janus

What is "over and above" the qualities we find in things? Is there anything like that? All we can say about the world is going to be related to whatever happens to interact with our cognitive capacitates and sensations.

Clearly Dennett is smart, speaks well, gives good examples. But he's leaving plenty of room for doubt when he says "there seems to be qualia".

I take him to be just saying that those quantiies are not what we might think they are due to our intuitive tendency to reify and create superfluous entities via language. — Janus

What is the colour experience red, aside from our experience of it? We can proceed to speak of wave-lengths, but that's not colour experience.

Oh, well. On to more wine.

Cheers.

Before you know it you are up to your neck in metaphysics — Tobias

Get me out of here!

:joke:

"I am denying that there are any such properties [qualia]. But… there seems to be qualia.”

A bit later on Dennett states that, concerning colors and their subjective effects “colors…are: reflective properties of the surface of objects…” (Dennett, D. 1991 p.372)

Qualia, in contemporary analytic philosophy are instances of subjective experience. The subjective aspects of qualia are according to Dennett, due to evolution: “…there were various reflective properties of surfaces, reactive properties of photopigments, and so forth, and Mother Nature developed out of these raw materials efficient, mutually adjusted “color”-coding/”color”-vision systems, and among the properties that settled out of that design process are properties we normal human beings call colors.” (p.378)

Dennett says “…lovely qualities cannot be defined independent of proclivities, susceptibilities, or dispositions of a class of observers, so it really makes no sense to speak of the existence of lovely properties in complete independence of the existence of relevant observers.” (p.380)

So, sure, we can't say that qualia are independent of observers, true.

But then, aside from the things postulated by science, we can't postulate anything absent observers.

But he's denying qualia, clearly.

Yes, it's a big part. But the terminology is cleared so that the discussion becomes fruitful.

One thing is to be in similar terminological area, that is agreeing on what we are talking about, another thing is the phenomena meant by the use of the word. What matters to me is the issue at had: is experience what we have or is it illusory in some manner.

I think it should be evident that we have experience, as we think we have. Our intuitions are correct in this point.

Anyway, I'm off, it's kind of late here. We may continue talking this if you wish. Or not.

It's all good.

Given his broadly functionalist model of consciousness, he argues, we can see why the ‘putative contrast between zombies and conscious beings is illusory’ — Janus

It's true that experience covers many areas.

The one area in which it is not prone to doubt, for most people anyway, is that we have experience, we experience things: colours, sounds, smells, novels, movies, music, etc.

A zombie wouldn't have these capacities, it would just behave as if it experienced these things. But we can do that with AI, it's says nothing about experience, because behavior is only data, not a theory.

in other words to claim that he believes Zombies are really possible, and that we are all zombies — Janus

If he doesn't accept it, good. If he does and he says that we are indistinguishable from Zombies, then the single most important aspect of being a human being is rendered illusory.

to mean in the sense of being conscious that we intuitively ( and by implication, naively) believe in, and of course there is no problem accepting that is Dennett's view, since he explicitly endorses it.. — Janus

Correct. But I don't see how any theories offer a more accurate account that our intuitions, in this case.

It's true, but the fact that it's true won't make any difference to those who wish not to accept it. — Wayfarer

Which would be fine, if it made any sense.

We had a thread on Strawson's panpsychism a little while back, which I'm also highly sceptical of. — Wayfarer

This paper has nothing to do with panpsychism at all. I agree with you, I don't think it holds up.

My position is very simple - mind is real and immaterial. Therefore materialism is false. — Wayfarer

I agree that mind is real. And that "materialism" is false if it implies scientism.

We can put immaterialism aside for now.

I don't believe we have to justify the way we express ourselves. How does one go about doing that? — Wheatley

Not for every single word. That would take forever an be pointless. No, in philosophy we try to clarify or elucidate the phenomenon in question: free will, idealism, compatibilism, psychic continuity, etc.

That's why we have these topics being discussed, we want to understand them better.

There are also different ordinary definitions of consciousness. Do we also need justification for one definition over the other? — Wheatley

We not infrequently say what we mean by consciousness: we say we mean personal experience, of the fact that it allows us to see qualia, etc.

For the ordinary usage of a word, we usually don't introduce clarifications, that's why it's ordinary usage. It doesn't mean that we are using the word optimally. But in ordinary usage, we usually get what the other person is talking about. Not always, of course. But, often enough.

Depends on which philosopher you have in mind. But let's grant that.

By granting it, you are going to have to justify why you are using the (now) technical word "consciousness" to mean something else besides the usual meaning of the word.

This is what physicist do when they use terms like "energy", "mass", "velocity", etc.

If you can't do that, then I don't see why we should use a technical definition, because it doesn't modify on our usual way of using the word, so it doesn't really serve a purpose.

It's a part of it. But all he's saying is that Dennett is using the word "consciousness" in such a way that it excludes what most people take consciousness to be.

The difference between saying "I am seeing the blue sky" and saying "it seems like as if the sky you're looking at is blue, but in reality it's "bad theorizing" " is a huge difference.

Well, if you can tell me what Dennett says consciousness is, then there's no issue. Dennett takes Strawson to be his most vocal critic and said that Strawson would have been a good candidate to include in Consciousness Explained:

"I thank Galen Strawson for his passionate attack on my views, since it provides a large, clear target for my rebuttal. I would never have dared put Strawson’s words in the mouth of Otto (the fictional critic I invented as a sort of ombudsman for the skeptical reader of Consciousness Explained) for fear of being scolded for creating a strawman. A full-throated, table-thumping Strawson serves me much better. He clearly believes what he says, thinks it is very important, and is spectacularly wrong in useful ways."

https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/04/03/magic-illusions-and-zombies-an-exchange/

Strawson clearly states what he thinks consciousness is: ."..experience that has a certain qualitative experiential character."

Dennett says this is not true.

You'll enjoy this, I'm certain. ;)

https://www.academia.edu/37649217/Dunking_Dennett

:up:

That is, the "always already conceptually shaped" is simply a misstatement not justified by any history of science or of thought, but rather itself an absolute presupposition of (apparently) McDowell's thinking. — tim wood

Hmmm. This is "the given".

I mean, would you say that sense-data or "qualia" aren't "already shaped"? I don't know if I'd call seeing blue or listening to a flute playing conceptual, but it seems to be a given.

Sunny Came Home - Shawn Colvin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S5iANxYIYQ

"Sunny came home to her favorite room
Sunny sat down in the kitchen
She opened a book and a box of tools
Sunny came home with a mission

She says "Days go by, I'm hypnotized
I'm walking on a wire
I close my eyes and fly out of my mind
Into the fire"

Sunny came home with a list of names
She didn't believe in transcendence
And it's time for a few small repairs, she said
Sunny came home with a vengeance

She says "Days go by, I don't know why
I'm walking on a wire
I close my eyes and fly out of my mind
Into the fire"

Get the kids and bring a sweater
Dry is good and wind is better
Count the years, you always knew it
Strike a match, go on and do it

"Oh, days go by, I'm hypnotized
I'm walking on a wire
I close my eyes and fly out of my mind
Into the fire"

Oh, light the sky and hold on tight
The world is burning down
She's out there on her own, and she's all right
Sunny came home
Sunny came home
Came home
Home"

It's hard to guess the future, though the problems you mention about Crypto contaminating a lot and that its value is subject to wild fluctuations are correct.

One thing is near certain about it, and that's that it's a fad. Most fads tend to die down considerably. You could dable in it if you wish, but I'd be extremely careful to get too enthusiastic about it. I have a strong feeling that these things will end up not working as intended: "democratic control of the money supply".

Someone eventually comes up on top and dictates rules others wouldn't agree with.

Indeed.