There are tens of millions of people who don't want that crap injected into their bloodstreams but the crazies have seized control. — MondoR

I didn't want to either. But I considered it my civic duty. Oh, and I'm not afraid of needles.

Here's your tens of millions:

NOS is well known as the forum idiot. Don't expect much consistency. — Xtrix

He reminds me of me when I was young. LOL! I want all the benefits of society but I don't want to contribute and you can't make me.

:lol:

That reminds me, when I was a kid they said we'd all be buzzing around in our jet packs by now. WTF? I feel ripped off by history.

Mondo reminds me of a kid playing a video game and thinking he’s winning — when the game isn’t plugged in. — Xtrix

:lol:

Why would any person listen to am hysterical person for advice or guidance? — MondoR

That's why no one listens to you for guidance.

In think that’s exactly why no one takes your hysterical rantings seriously. — Xtrix

Oops! Beat me to it. :grin:

Hunter gatherers lost the Darwinian game. — Hanover

It's too early to tell. It's only been about 12k years or so. That won't make for a verdict. Side note digression: I always loved looking at Nat Geo but something about it made me uncomfortable. They seemed driven to see, explore and map every square inch of the planet. That gives me the creeps. As Leopold opined, "Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"

I wonder if man, with all his intellect, has saved the indigenous hunter-gatherer wisdom/knowledge. You know, just in case. Leopold also said "The first sign of intelligent tinkering is to keep all the parts." I wonder what 12,021 will look like.

I'm thinking the land demands per capita for hunter gatherers exceeds that of industrial societies by several hundred fold at least. — Hanover

No doubt. That's why cities are so awesome.

Right, and long term effects were never studied.
— MondoR

Given that it’s been 70 years or so, we do know the long term effects: eradication of polio. — Xtrix

Yep. Good thing we didn't have the top reason for vaccine hesitancy back then (politics).

How are modern day hunter gatherers faring these days? — Hanover

They were fine until the neighbors moved in. Now they fare as well as their prey base. Not so good. What, with all the clear cutting, strip mining, over-grazing, damming, paving, subdividing, developing and commodification of natural and human resources. It's not looking good for them, but it's not looking good for the culprits either.

It is easy to feel smart next to these guys, isn’t it? But then I feel like the bully picking on the weakest kids. Remorse sets in. I really don’t hold them in contempt— I just think they’re delusionally wrong. — Xtrix

:100:

I've always felt that wise cannot complain about stupid. So I am admittedly very unwise, even demonstrating my stupidity by engagement with those who have mastered the art.

Gods, I can't believe I'm having to actually write this out to explain... — Isaac

That's because you can't keep your foolish eyes on the ball. You said:

Mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac

I simply corrected your error in reasoning by showing you the real reason for vaccine hesitancy. See how that works? No? I didn't think so. You should leave the thinking for your intellectual superiors, like me and other vaxers.

Ah, the binomial thinking is contagious. Why, in your bizarre hypothetical, are people robbed of their ability to use more than one factor in their judgements? — Isaac

They're not. Twas you that painted pharma with a single brush.

When they go low, we tie our hands behind our backs.

Mistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac

That is not true. If it were, then people would not take pharmaceuticals. But, as a gargantuan industry, that is clearly not the case. People love pharmaceuticals.

The top reason for vaccine hesitancy is politics.

Denying that such mistrust is justified is therefore among the top activities of the pro-vaccine lobby. — Isaac

No. The top activity of the pro-vaccine lobby is politely asking people to vax.

The former is undeniably beautiful — Xtrix

Yeah, we were treated to her walking resolutely across a grassy hill top with her breasts and figure prominently displayed. Kind of like Sarah Palin.

Oh well, I feel like I am running afoul of what AOC would have me do, which is to drop my typical male focus on sex/appearances and instead try to keep my eye on substance. It is distracting, though. Fucking biology! :death:

So I guess we can agree that one's genitals aren't the most important reason to pick a politician. Far more is what the politician believes in and what he or she does. — ssu

That is true. However, I think there is an "on balance" argument. Or a "generally speaking" argument. This would incline me toward women since they really haven't been in charge since forever. Same with minorities and same with youth.

What do people think about Trump being the Republican candidate in 2024? — ssu

Who?

How about trying to change these statistics in the next elections? — ssu

I try. I don't try my best, but I try. At least somewhat. Actually, not enough. But I try.

On the other hand, we have young dummies too, like Lauren Boebert and Margorie Taylor Green.

And Riley champions the state and boss’ orders. Nothing much has changed. — NOS4A2

Unlike you, my choices are nuanced, which allows me to think without boxing myself into absurdities like you do all the time.

The science says they aren’t required. What happened to listening to science? — NOS4A2

Do you even hear yourself? I was just going to say, fuck science, right? Now NOS is a champion of the working class and science. WTF is the world coming to?

You’re copying and pasting other people’s arguments. — NOS4A2

That's the level of time I'm willing to devote to your nonsense.

The workers might not require vaccines. — NOS4A2

If their bosses say they are required, then they are required. See how that works?

Up-and-comers, the squad:

All you guys have are false analogies and never anything about the issue at hand. Chefs? :lol: — NOS4A2

An analogy, by definition, is not the thing itself. It is no argument to point that out. Rather, it is incumbent upon those who seek to defeat it to draw a distinction with a relevant difference. That, you failed to do.

Last year front line workers were heroes. It was all fake, of course. Now they’re replaceable. — NOS4A2

I sure hope you are listening to yourself. That is a line taken right out of the socialist playbook in opposition to employers who take advantage of employees. Maybe you are learning.

We talk about the leisure time afforded by agriculture, but the development of agriculture was purchased by the leisure time afforded by meat. Carnivores in the animal kingdom often lay around for days or weeks, burping, farting, swatting flies, fucking and socializing. Hell, that's just the mammals; snakes and gators go for months after a full belly. I figure when a group of people took down a mammoth they had some free time to process it, make cloths, etc. Cold storage stashes have been found in the Rocky Mountains and pemmican and smoking and other preservation methods made the meat last.

I understand the gatherers may have actually contributed the bulk of the diet, but even that was a maintenance program pending the big kill. So I'm not so sure the leisure time argument for ag holds water. I think ag was a response to population increases, territorial limitations and over-hunted meat animals.

US Doctors are now paid the most in the World. — ssu

They should get paid more. But there is a giant sucking sound between Doctor and patient: That is the health insurance industry. Every time I see a giant sky-scraper with 30 floors, I envision each floor containing a hundred or more cubicles occupied by people getting $60k or more per year to stamp "Denied" or "Approved" on a piece of paper. And that's just the minions. And they are all working in the best interest of shareholders. They should all be in the unemployment line with the buggy whip workers.

When a global pandemic hit and people were forced to close shop for a while, it's understandable. The real issue comes when the pandemic is over (or is the new normal). — ssu

I'll be honest, I'm ready to roll the dice. I'm ready to turn leadership over to women, and the younger generation, and minorities, and try something entirely new. And every time I see one of the old guard chiming in, I want to tell him to take a fucking seat. Do they have knowledge and wisdom to share? Yes. But I don't want to hear a bunch of mia culpa BS if it's designed to perpetuate and save recalcitrant old asses. Too late, MFrs, stand down.

I do realize they may not go peacefully and they hold a lot of power, but that is where our wisdom can aid the new guard in dealing with the old guard. And yes, I'm open to cooperation and cooler heads than mine, but I won't stand in the way of the change I'd like to see, even if it personally feels a little awkward or uncomfortable.

"Here's the reigns, bitches! Have fun!"

Thank you Raven, for reminding me to speak my own tongue.

It’s a step backward from both common decency and human rights to suggest that some should refuse, or be refused, medical treatments because they are unvaccinated. It’s not only antisocial, but cruel. — NOS4A2

:rofl:

For me too— but it’s never productive, because the arguments are so irrational and so damaging that it’s hard to keep my temper, and then I’m not communicating well enough to have an effect anyway. — Xtrix

Here here. :100:

Likely Robert Reich is correct. But then, the show is continuing the same way under Biden too. — ssu

And it continues the same way when Republicans are in power, only on steroids' with a large dose of denial.

Nothing will stop it now, especially after large direct money transfers to US citizens is becoming the new norm. — ssu

It will be fun to try trickle up instead of trickle down, though, for a change. They say a rising tide lifts all boats. But raising boats in an emerging market from 30 cents and hour to 40, lowers the boats in the U.S. to unemployment and the federal tit. Sure, everyone can now afford a cheap piece of plastic Chinese shit, but that is not raising the boat. Besides, can't those who "generate wealth" just go generate some more? They don't need us peons to pay their way like we do now. Better they actually start working so all that printed money can trickle up.

I think climate denial should at this point be either laughed at (as one would flat earthers) or ignored. — Xtrix

It also helps to generate a fake air of controversy over climate action that provides cover for the vested interests seeking to delay the end of the fossil fuel age.

What to do about it not easy to answer, but at least we can start calling it what it is, rather than trying to reason with the unreasonable and the anti-reasonable. — tim wood

It's very difficult for me to refrain from giving oxygen to these people. But it may be the best strategy in the end. If one is to "cancel culture", provide consequences, or ostracize, then one has to stick to it. I don't know if I have what it takes, but I shall try. I'm glad "laughed at" was laid out as an option. It might be a half-way step for me. :smile:

Since agriculture would seem to be a necessary condition for civilization, — Janus

Just as a point of order, I know some Indians who would say there is a difference between "civilization" and "civilized."

For some, the entire population of the Western Hemisphere were innocent until the Europeans came along and fucked everyone and everything over. — Bitter Crank

HA! Hardly. Part of my fantasy is that I'm the first and only, never having to look over my shoulder, except for maybe a Dire Wolf or Saber Tooth Tiger. Well, I'd allow for 30 or so women. LOL! But Indians were torturing and killing each other long before the Europeans showed up. It's that damn free time! And competition for resources. And fire.

Reason stands for nothing when facts don't matter. — Wayfarer

:100: Understatement +.

You were completely wrong. — I like sushi

I stand corrected. I was probably thinking of something like this: https://socratic.org/questions/5a84f54411ef6b017ad524fa That, and anecdotal statements from indig clients and friends who said their old people (over a 100) was common before alcohol and reservation life.

Either way, when I look around at people now, I don't see much "life." I see lot's of suicide, depression, diversion, desperation, insecurity (ironic, eh?) and malaise. Having spent a good deal of time "living off the land" alone in "wilderness", hunting, gathering, fishing, and laying around thinking, drinking clean water and breathing clean air and eating clean food, I pine for something I never knew: Living every day. Rose colored glasses? Maybe. But hunting bison priscus and wooly mammoths is attractive to me.

It's a mistake to spread the rumor that vaccinated people can't transmit. — frank

Who did that?

The main reason to be vaccinated is to potentially save your own life. — frank

Is that a better reason than to save the life of another? Maybe not take up a bed they could use?

:100: Maybe Texas will make it work for him. Now that they have AZ to learn from. :roll: Will it ever end?

I had a conversation with a guy a couple of decades ago. He was citing increased longevity over time. I pointed out that it was my understanding that decreasing infant mortality made up the lions share of that. That studies of pre-contact indigenous skeletal remains showed that the ratio of people who lived into their 80s, 90s and 100s showed little difference. There was more evidence of a hard life in our ancestors, like a bull rider's muscle attachments and broken bones. But I argued that regardless, living seven days a week made for a longer life than living two days a week and working for the man five days a week.

It brings to mind a sign in a bar just off the Shoshoni/Paiute Reservation. It said something to the effect: "We hunted and fished and crafted and sang and danced and had sex all day. We paid no taxes and the women did all the work. The white man showed up and figured he could improve on that."

I think Pleistocene diets work best when you have to work for your food.