No worries T Clark! I have no desire to. Please continue this most interesting thread in all seriousness! I seriously keep my mouth shut. Wouldn't dare to open it again. Tao Lao Zao said some nice things about the quantum vacuum, interconnectedness of the whole and it's relation to it's parts, way ahead of his time, but I have absolutely no desire to follow his wisdom. Trying to avoid desire while not trying not to be attached to no desiring of it's negation is simply too much for me, as a desiring being. I have thrown all my craving and desiring for matarial wealth in the garbage recently. That suffices for me. Goodday and enjoy! :kiss:

I don’t there is a conceptual niche for ‘the unmanifest, unmade, unnamed’ in modern thought. — Wayfarer

This line made me curious to ask if you've had a look at Religion and Nothingness by Nishitani, hailing from the Kyoto school. I've spent some time with the book but can't say I grasped its thrust or thesis. It kind of slipped through with the sands; might be time to take a second look. I recall it had a kind of Tao-ish atmosphere of paradox.

This line made me curious to ask if you've had a look at Religion and Nothingness by Nishitani, hailing from the Kyoto school. — ZzzoneiroCosm

I encountered the Kyoto School during Buddhist Studies. They sure are difficult scholars to read, as they were all steeped in classical Japanese thought and also highly educated in Western philosophy. At the time I tried to read that book, I found it very hard to fathom, but maybe I would do better this time (that was many years ago).

The TTC is about reality before concepts. If it is put into words, it's no longer the Tao. The Tao is unspeakable. — T Clark

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things. — T Clark

I was pathologically attracted to Samuel Beckett's full-throated pessimism in my younger, more Nauseated* days. This passage from Watt has a pertinent ring. It's the centerpiece of Beckett's description of the house and effects of one Mr. Knott:

For Watt now found himself in the midst of things which, if they consented to be named, did so as it were with reluctance. And the state in which Watt found himself resisted formulation in a way no state had ever done, in which Watt had ever found himself, and Watt had found himself in a great many states, in his day. Looking at a pot, for example, or thinking of a pot, at one of Mr. Knott's pots, it was in vain that Watt said, Pot, pot. Well, perhaps not quite in vain, but very nearly. For it was not a pot, the more he looked, the more he reflected, the more he felt sure of that, that it was not a pot at all. It resembled a pot, it was almost a pot, but it was not a pot of which one could say, Pot, pot, and be comforted. It was in vain that it answered, with unexceptionable adequacy, all the purposes, and performed all the offices, of a pot, it was not a pot. And it was just this hairbreadth departure from the nature of a true pot that so excruciated Watt. — Beckett - Watt, p.232

*A la Satre. Fascinating how Sartre's Nausea and a specific kind of schizophrenic mysticism, as related firsthand by two or three extremely articulate and intellectual schizophrenics in Louis A. Sass's Madness and Modernism, link up. I take Sartre's Nausea to be the obverse of so-called Enlightenment. The difficulty, of course, lies in getting the coin to flip - but it can be done. (I know firsthand.)

Sass describes a similar if not identical state borrowing DeChirico's term Stimmung. Much to say about this notion but this bit from The Diary of a Schizophrenic Girl has to do for today:

"When, for example, I looked at a chair or a jug, I thought not of their use or function - a jug not as something to hold water or milk, a chair not as something to sit in - but as having lost their names, their functions and meanings." (bolds mine)

Last, from Joseph Campbell, to, with any luck, tie this post together:

"The schizophrenic is drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight."


@Wayfarer
Interested in your thoughts on the link between so-called "Enlightenment", Nausea, madness...

Replied in another thread.

And even though the next country is so close
that people can hear its roosters crowing and its dogs barking,
they are content to die of old age
without ever having gone to see it. — T Clark

This line was always a favorite. It seems to have some link to Pascal's: "All of humanity's problems stem from his inability to sit quietly in a room alone."

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything — T Clark

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place. — T Clark

This I connect to the notion of a flexible, flowing self-confidence. For example, 20 years ago I would often schedule my daily and weekly tasks to be sure all were completed in a timely fashion. Whereas today (I'm 46, for reference) my attitude is: this will happen; just wait and see it happen.

I do not know whose child it is... — T Clark

A lot of spiritual emotion in that line.

This line was always a favorite. It seems to have some link to Pascal's: "All of humanity's problems stem from his inability to sit quietly in a room alone." — ZzzoneiroCosm

I think you're right. The Tao Te Ching emphasizes living lives without desiring more than you have or need. That would include novelty, excitement, fashionable activities. Some say the passage from the Tao Te Ching is one of those that endorses paternalistic government - the ruler keeping his people ignorant and docile.

For what it's worth, the trips I took to Europe with my family in 1989 and with my brother in 2014 were among the high points of my life. I still think about them all the time.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
— T Clark

This I connect to the notion of a flexible, flowing self-confidence. For example, 20 years ago I would often schedule my daily and weekly tasks to be sure all were completed in a timely fashion. Whereas today (I'm 46, for reference) my attitude is: this will happen; just wait and see it happen. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Acting without acting, wu wei, is one of the most important ideals of Taoism. Have you had the experience of spontaneous action arising from within without forethought or intention? Maybe when you're being most creative. I certainly have. Action arising from your true self. The subject shows up time after time in many verses.

A lot of spiritual emotion in that line. — ZzzoneiroCosm

One of my favorite verses. The line after the one you quoted was shocking to me when I first read it:

I do not know whose child it is,
It is an image of what precedes God.

Lao Tzu says the Tao comes before God. What could be more amazing, radical, maybe blasphemous than that.

Have you had the experience of spontaneous action arising from within without forethought or intention? Maybe when you're being most creative. I certainly have. Action arising from your true self. The subject shows up time after time in many verses. — T Clark

Would you call this a "flow" state?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

I do not know whose child it is,
It is an image of what precedes God. — T Clark

Yes, shocking and radical. And with a koanic ring. I dig it.

Would you call this a "flow" state? — ZzzoneiroCosm

"Flow" is not a term I would normally use in this context, but if by that you mean

...that sense of fluidity between your body and mind, where you are totally absorbed by and deeply focused on something, beyond the point of distraction. Time feels like it has slowed down. Your senses are heightened. You are at one with the task at hand, as action and awareness sync to create an effortless momentum.

then I guess the answer is yes.

Yes, that.

Yes, that. — ZzzoneiroCosm

This is a clip I've used several times here on the forum. It's from "Billy Elliot," a great movie. Billy, a working class boy from a rough mining town has just finished his audition for a prestigious dancing school:



Actually, I see I've used it on this thread before.

Nice clip, and perfectly describes the flow state. A state of inspiration. The connection to desire is most puzzling to me. As I said above: I take desire to be at the heart of inspiration and inspiration to be at the heart of a life fully lived.

Made me think of the dancing mystic Nijinsky.

It is not possible for man to understand God - God understands God. Man is God and therefore understands God. I am God. I am a man. I have flesh, I am flesh, I am not descended from flesh. Flesh is created by God. I am God. I am God. I am God. — Nijinsky's Diary

Start at 00:30.

The connection to desire is most puzzling to me. As I said above: I take desire to be at the heart of inspiration and inspiration to be at the heart of a life fully lived. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Are you familiar with the four Noble Truths of Buddhism? Forgive my summary:

• All life is suffering
• Suffering is caused by desire, craving, attachment
• Get rid of desire, you get rid of suffering.
• Follow our patented 8 step path for fast, fast relief.

Taoism is not Buddhism, but I've always thought their ideas of suffering are similar.

Are you familiar with the four Noble Truths of Buddhism? Forgive my summary: — T Clark

No prob. I'm familiar.

As it reads, I just can't agree. If "desire" is qualified so as not to exclude the utilization of desire to ignite inspiration, I would be more sympathetic. I have too much firsthand experience of the profound energic outcomes of intense desire.

Energy is eternal Delight. — Blake

It was desire to be "enlightened" that set me on the path of meditation. It was desire to be A Great Artist that grounded my devotion to the arts and produced the wonderful fruits thereof.

I get, as I said above, that certain kinds of desire result in profound existential suffering: in a word, anguish. I have firsthand knowledge of that, too - like all humans have.

I know J.D. Salinger sets out a kind of rebuttal to the Buddhist desire thing in Franny and Zooey. It seems to be time to take a second look at that.

Any more insight into the issue of desire is welcome. I'm enjoying the exchange.

Deleted

Suffering is caused by desire, craving, attachment — T Clark

The wiki page on Tanha is helpful:

"It is typically translated as craving,[3] and is of three types: kāma-taṇhā (craving for sensual pleasures), bhava-taṇhā (craving for existence), and vibhava-taṇhā (craving for non-existence)."

If Tanha only includes these few sorts of desires, no problem, I (mostly) get it.

As it reads, I just can't agree. If "desire" is qualified so as not to exclude the utilization of desire to ignite inspiration, I would be more sympathetic. I have too much firsthand experience of the profound energic outcomes of intense desire. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Any more insight into the issue of desire is welcome. I'm enjoying the exchange. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Keeping in mind, of course, that you are disagreeing with Lao Tzu and not just me. Let me see if I can put together a post about desire. It may take me a while.

you are disagreeing with Lao Tzu — T Clark

Yes, Lao Tzu and the Buddha. But then again "all desire, unqualified desire" may be a fatally imprecise translation.

If Tanha only includes these few sorts of desires, no problem, I (mostly) get it. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Although I see them as related, the Taoist and Buddhist understandings of desire are not exactly the same. I'll put something together.

I appreciate your work.

I appreciate your work. — ZzzoneiroCosm

It is a luxury to have someone questioning the things I write. It makes me work harder to understand.

Same here. A witness and friendly critic makes me think harder.

Here's the passage from Franny and Zooey. Toward the end of the book and something like a conclusion. Appears to be exactly what I've got in mind re desire.

You can say the Jesus Prayer from now till doomsday, but if you don't realize that the only thing that counts in the religious life is detachment, I don't see how you ever move an inch. Detachment, buddy, and only detachment. Desirelessness. 'Cessations from all hankerings.' It's this business of desiring, if you want to know the goddam truth, that makes an actor in the first place. Why're you making me tell you things you already know? Somewhere along the line - in one damn incarnation or another, if you like - you not only had a hankering to be an actor or an actress but to be a good one. You're stuck with it now. You can't just walk out on the results of your own hankerings. Cause and effect, buddy, cause and effect. The only thing you can do now, the only religious thing you can do, is act. Act for God, if you want to - be God's actress, if you want to. What could be prettier? — Salinger

Here's the passage from Franny and Zooey. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Sounds like whichever character is talking in the quote has studied some Buddhism. I think of "detachment" as a Buddhist concept, although I think it is consistent with Taoism too.

I think Salinger was at least into it if not quite a card-carrying Buddhist.

As it reads, I just can't agree. If "desire" is qualified so as not to exclude the utilization of desire to ignite inspiration, I would be more sympathetic. I have too much firsthand experience of the profound energic outcomes of intense desire. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Desire

The meanings of words can be confusing in the Tao Te Ching. Sometimes they are used in ways that seem inconsistent or even contradictory. Even when that is not true, there are often subtle differences between usages in one verse compared to another. Added to that is the fact that different translators make different decisions about what the ancient Chinese words mean in modern English and different interpretations of the overall meaning of concepts and verses. Adding even more to the confusion is the fact that Lao Tzu was writing 2,500 years ago in a culture that was vastly different from ours.

There is a metaphor I use to describe how I handle all that ambiguity and try to come to my own understanding. I sometimes think of the different verses and different translations as snapshots of the true meanings taken from many different angles. You can’t get the idea from a single snapshot. You have to look at them all, then shuffle them and look at them again. Then go away and come back later, reshuffle them, and try again. That way, you can build up an impressionistic understanding of what Lao Tzu was trying to say.

So.. what I’ve done is copy all the verses that use the word “desire” or a derivative word in Ellen Marie Chen’s translation. I chose her translation because I found her usage of the word the most satisfying of those I looked at.

Alternate Verse 1

Non-being, to name the origin of heaven and earth;
Being, to name the mother of ten thousand things.
Therefore, always without desire,
In order to observe the hidden mystery;
Always with desire,
In order to observe the manifestations.

Verse 3

Do not honor the worthy,
So that the people will not contend with one another.
Do not value hard-to-get goods,
So that the people will not turn robbers.
Do not show objects of desire,
So that the people's minds are not disturbed.
Therefore, when the sage rules:
He empties the minds of his people,
Fills their bellies,
Weakens their wills,
And strengthens their bones.
Always he keeps his people in no-knowledge and no-desire,
Such that he who knows dares not act.
Act by no-action,
Then, nothing is not in order.

Verse 19

Eliminate sagacity, discard knowledge,
People will be profited a hundredfold.
Eliminate humanity, discard righteousness,
People will again practice filial piety and parental love.
Abolish artistry, discard profit-seeking,
Robbers and thieves shall disappear.
These three pairs adorn what is deficient.
Therefore, let there be the advice:
Look to the undyed silk, hold on to the uncarved wood,
Reduce your sense of self and lessen your desires.

Verse 29

One who desires to take the world and act upon it,
I see that it cannot be done.
The world is a spirit vessel,
Which cannot be acted upon.
One who acts on it fails,
One who holds on to it loses.
Therefore things either move forward or follow behind;
They blow hot or blow cold;
They are strong or weak;
They get on or they get off.
Therefore the sage gets rid of over-doing,
Gets rid of extravagances,
Gets rid of excesses.

Verse 34

The great Tao floods over,
To the left, to the right.
Ten thousand beings live by it,
And it does not reject them.
Work is accomplished, yet it has no name.
It clothes and nourishes ten thousand beings,
But does not lord over them.
Always without desire,
It may be named the small;
Ten thousand beings return to it,
Yet it does not lord over them,
It may be named the great.
Because it never considers itself great,
Therefore it can accomplish its greatness.

Verse 37

Tao everlasting does not act,
And yet nothing is not done.
If kings and barons can abide by it,
The ten thousand things will transform by themselves.
If in transforming desire is aroused,
I shall suppress it by the nameless uncarved wood.
With the nameless uncarved wood,
There shall be no desire.
Without desire there is thus quietude.
The world shall be self-ordered.

Verse 46

When the world practices Tao,
Fast horses are used for their dung.
When the world does not practice Tao,
War horses give birth at the borders.
Among offenses, none is greater than having what is desirable.
Among calamities, none is greater than not knowing contentment.
Among blames, none is greater than the desire for gain.
Therefore the contentment that comes from knowing contentment
Is a long lasting contentment.

Verse 57

Govern a state by the normal;
Conduct warfare as the abnormal;
Take the empire when there is no business.
How do I know such should be the case?
By the following:
In an empire with many prohibitions,
People are often poor;
When people have many sharp weapons,
The state is in great darkness;
When persons abound in ingenuity,
Abnormal objects multiply;
When laws are abundantly promulgated,
There are many thieves and brigands.
Therefore the sage says:
I do not act,
Hence the people transform by themselves;
I love tranquility,
Hence the people are normal by themselves;
I have no business,
Hence the people grow rich by themselves;
I have no desire,
Hence the people are like the uncarved wood by themselves.

Verse 64

What is at equilibrium is easy to maintain;
What has not emerged is easy to plan;
What is fragile is easy to dissolve;
What is minute is easy to disperse.
Act when there is yet nothing to do.
Govern when there is yet no disorder.
A tree whose trunk is of a man's embrace,
Begins from something extremely tiny.
A tower of nine stories high,
Is built from a heap of earth.
A trip of a thousand miles,
Begins right at one's feet.
He who acts fails,
He who holds on to loses.
Therefore the sage does not act so he does not fail,
He does not hold on to, so he does not lose.
The people in launching their projects,
Often fail when these are near completion.
Had they been as careful at the end as at the beginning,
There would have been no failures.
Therefore the sage desires not to desire,
He does not treasure hard-to-get goods;
Learns not to learn,
He recovers the transgressions of many.
In assisting the self-becoming of all beings,
He dares not act.

Verse 66

Rivers and seas can be kings of the hundred valleys,
Because they are good at flowing downwards.
Therefore they can be kings of the hundred valleys.
Thus if you desire to be above the people,
Your words must reach down to them.
If you desire to lead the people,
Your person must be behind them.
Thus the sage is above,
Yet the people do not feel his weight.
He stays in front,
Yet the people do not suffer any harm.
Thus all gladly praise him untiringly.
Because he does not contend with any,
Therefore no one under heaven can contend with him.

Thanks for setting this out. Looking forward to taking a close look at it soon.