Oh, so god exists and it's a "He"! Wow! It's getting better and better. Applauding. To be fair, I suspected he would be a man as he is pretty sh*t at running the shop.

And who are you exactly to point the moral finger, sir? Take a good look in the mirror first.

And you trust the government to guarantee your money in such scenario? Adorable simplicity.

@CuddlyHedgehog

I think the murder of millions of people is wrong. I wish i could be a pacifist akin to tolstoy in his later life. But alas that is not the case. And finally

It is therefore just as little neccesary for the saint to be a philosopher as for the philosopher to be a saint; just as it is is not neccesary for a prefectly beautiful person to be a great sculptor, or for a great sculptor to be himself a beutiful person. In general it is a strange demand on a moralist that he should commend no other virtue than that which he himself possesses -schopenhauer

:heart:

:rofl:

And you trust the government to guarantee your money in such scenario? Adorable simplicity. — CuddlyHedgehog

No, the banks will mostly guarantee it with the extensive assets that they have. They may have no liquidity, and therefore declare bankruptcy, though that doesn't mean that they aren't rich.

Says who, the financiers who make money by stealing from those who produce, the money changers and the leeches of society who suck those who are actually productive dry? — Agustino

That sounded like Marx and Jesus all rolled into one. :up:

But except for perhaps Germany in the 19th Century, that doesn't typically happen. — ssu

South Korea. Also proof that governments can run businesses.

Edit: and Singapore. And really most European countries protected their industries, letting them mature before opening up their domestic markets for foreign companies. It's really quite common. That said, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the USA.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/italy-s-berlusconi-could-play-kingmaker-after-wild-election-campaign-n851926

This old dinosaur is very probably going to get back to power :rofl:

He started "with a small loan" secured by his father who worked for the bank - to build one of Milan's prime real estate projects Milan Due, at the age of 25 (3500 apartments). It's good to be a hard-working "entrepreneur" :naughty:

And a very corrupt, selfish, racist, psychopathic, bigoted misogynist. And how exactly does that benefit you as a voter? Mind-boggling, self-inflicted misery.

And a very corrupt, selfish, racist, psychopathic, bigoted misogynist. And how exactly does that benefit you as a voter? Mind-boggling, self-inflicted misery. — CuddlyHedgehog

It's not about benefiting the voter. He controls the political infrastructure, so things are simply arranged such that he wins - not to mention like 80% of Italian media.

[Delete] @Baden

[Delete] @Baden

[Delete] @Baden

And that's the thing - he has shaped Italy's culture such that people love the macho, bigoted misogynist kind of attitude - even amongst women. Because there are many many beautiful women who have profited financially and otherwise because of him and others like him. They too don't want the status quo to change. They are used to using their bodies to get ahead, and it has actually become a thing of prestige for them, something to be proud of - they are beautiful and unashamed of it. In the competition with other women, they feel dominant - why would they want the status quo to change?

A friend of mine mentioned to me that usually female feminists are ugly women physically - and that's true to a certain extent, in that there is probably no doubt that some women who feel resentment towards other women may channel that resentment towards fighting against the objectification of women just so they can "get back" at women who can use their physical beauty to their advantage. Not all of them, obviously, but I have no doubt that some of them fall in this category.

The activists are usually those who do not benefit from the establishment. If you get to be a minister after you sleep with Berlusconi, you're not gonna want him gone! He was your ticket to power, and it was so easy and so quick! In fact, he promotes beautiful young women, that's what many women on the streets would also say.

So it is a strange relationship, where the victim and the oppressor end up sharing some sort of benefit together that would be lost if the relationship is dissolved. The victim in turn becomes an oppressor, and in that they are co-opted to sustain those who have oppressed them in the first place.

Sounds a lot like Trump. — René Descartes

No man, Trump is infinitely better, there's no comparison. Trump really is a gentleman compared to Berlusconi :rofl: , and that's saying something, cause by normal standards Trump is definitely not a gentleman.

[Delete] @Baden

[Delete] @Baden

A friend of mine mentioned to me that usually female feminists are ugly women physically - and that's true to a certain extent, in that there is probably no doubt that some women who feel resentment towards other women may channel that resentment towards fighting against the objectification of women just so they can "get back" at women who can use their physical beauty to their advantage. Not all of them, obviously, but I have no doubt that some of them fall in this category. — Agustino

And the usual responsibility-aborting cliche "a friend of mine mentioned that..." Why don't you just admit you are a chauvinistic pig (I hope pigs will forgive me), already? The only thing I agree with you on is that men are (evidently, based on your argument) useable and disposable. Having said that, I wouldn't screw an ugly imbecile for all the money and power in the world, especially when I can get those through outsmarting the idiot. This post might get deleted but it's off my chest now, so there!.

No wonder you are a Trump's admirer, btw. His motto is "..grab 'em by the p*ssy.."

fighting against the objectification of women just so they can "get back" at women who can use their physical beauty to their advantage — Agustino

Has it ever crossed your mind, even remotely, that they might be fighting against the objectification of women because it's wrong and they do not want to become objectified themselves? Or is it a privilege and an achievement for a woman to become objectified, as you put it, in your demented little mind?

@CuddlyHedgehog

I seem to remember a controversial article a while ago, talking about Kant, and objectification. There might have been a thread on here about it, ill see if i can find it.

Anyway as far as i can remember the point of the article was to say that all sexual attraction is more or less objectification. Which i think i agree with. I know that women objectify men just as much as men objectify women but no one seems to care about that, (not that i do). I think we evolved to objectify one another so it seems pretty unsolvable to me, and i dont see a whole lot wrong about it.

[Delete] @Baden

Like animals (which we are very similar to), humans have that need or drive to breed, and so, yes I disagree with the objectification of women (and of men), but it may be a natural psychological response — René Descartes

Objectification is not sexual attraction, I'd reply.

Objectification might be how a person specifically relates to sexuality, but that's a particular mode. Objectification can also be related to other facets of human existence, such as labour. And it need not be presented as a defective hermenetics ; Baudrillard, in le système des objets, suggests in a quip that perhaps the only real liberation humanity has ever experienced is the partial and gradual liberation of labour objectification (the power of an individual to define himself in terms of labour power) that we have experienced in the last century or so.

There are very few aspects of the feminist critic of female objectificaton by males which I might agree to file under the heading of "meh, that's instinctual and natural", such as perhaps some points about male gaze (gaze, being to a point an involontary reaction to stimulus, an individual's gaze is not necessarily something he controls, but most of the time, male gaze refers to something else entirely), but certainly not that instinct and natural drives explains away the tendency to value women mostly according to objective sexual factors.

No wonder you are a Trump's admirer, btw. His motto is "..grab 'em by the p*ssy.." — CuddlyHedgehog

Hmm is that why I've said stuff like:

Trump isn't a morally perfect person, for example, I think in matters of sexuality he has some important shortcomings, but in terms of getting things done, useful policies (like the tax & bureaucracy reduction), it seems that he's been doing well. Also, he's a very good cheerleader for America. — Agustino

And this isn't true either, I think that it's clear by now that in certain areas Trump isn't a very moral person - like sexuality for example. — Agustino

And the usual responsibility-aborting cliche "a friend of mine mentioned that..." Why don't you just admit you are a chauvinistic pig (I hope pigs will forgive me), already? — CuddlyHedgehog

Because I don't think I am a chauvinistic pig, though you obviously enjoy calling me that. I simply said the truth, that's what one of my friends said, who does happen to be somewhat chauvinistic as you say. He thinks that most female feminists are like that. I don't - I simply said that some are no doubt like that, and that's something that should be criticised. We shouldn't close our eyes to our allies' faults merely because they are on the same side as us.

If a woman acts out of resentment for other women who are more beautiful than her, then that's wrong, regardless of whether her actions otherwise have positive consequences.

The only thing I agree with you on is that men are (evidently, based on your argument) useable and disposable. — CuddlyHedgehog

Well, this is sexist now, because it actually is a blanket statement about men in general. No doubt that there are women who treat men that way, just like there are men who treat women that way. In fact, quite a lot of the men that I've met treat women as disposable, unfortunately.

Having said that, I wouldn't screw an ugly imbecile for all the money and power in the world, especially when I can get those through outsmarting the idiot. — CuddlyHedgehog

Except that you can't get money & power without having sex with him - at least not as easily and as quickly. For example, a prostitute who had sex with him once got a $10,000 necklace. Also, just because you wouldn't have sex with him for money & power doesn't mean that other women wouldn't.

This post might get deleted but it's off my chest now, so there!. — CuddlyHedgehog

Ok, well, hopefully, you at least feel better, though I actually happen to be on the same side of the fence as you are. But you seem to have an aversion to confronting the problem as it exists - I was merely outlining what the problem is. You can't solve a problem if you're not aware of what it is.

There is an unholy alliance between some beautiful women and sexist men which is precisely why for 20+ years sexism is still thriving in Italy and cannot be eradicated.

Has it ever crossed your mind, even remotely, that they might be fighting against the objectification of women because it's wrong and they do not want to become objectified themselves? — CuddlyHedgehog

Sure. That's why I said:

there is probably no doubt that some women who feel resentment towards other women may channel that resentment towards fighting against the objectification of women just so they can "get back" at women who can use their physical beauty to their advantage. Not all of them, obviously, but I have no doubt that some of them fall in this category. — Agustino

Or is it a privilege and an achievement for a woman to become objectified, as you put it, in your demented little mind? — CuddlyHedgehog

Well, some women would consider this as a privilege. In a sexist culture, some of the beautiful women get their sense of self-esteem precisely by being able to make these rich and powerful men desire them and want to have sex with them (unlike the ugly women who can't). That is their own way of dominating these men, despite their wealth and power.

Objectively, I would say this is a humiliation, not an achievement, for both the man and the woman in question. But then for me, sexual morality is very important, so I am against all forms of cheating, sexual promiscuity, etc.

I don't agree with many of her anti-EU policies, but she surely seems like a charismatic politician, very adept at rousing the crowd:

I don't agree with many of her anti-EU policies, but she surely seems like a charismatic politician, very adept at rousing the crowd: — Agustino

What’s your point? Are you saying she slept with someone to get to where she is? Is it possible that her own credentials and qualifications got her there? Just because she is beautiful, it doesn’t mean she has prostituded herself to get the job.

P.S. To be fair, it probably helps when your grandfather founded the Party you work for, so not a great deal of meritocracy required.

very adept at rousing the crowd: — Agustino

All right-wing politicians are adept at that. It’s how they compensate for bad judgment and lack of reasoning.

may just be a natural, instinctual reaction. — René Descartes

Our brains have greatly evolved since the Stone Age. No excuse to cherry-pick prehistoric ancestral traits.

Like animals (which we are very similar to) — René Descartes

We are very different to animals.

What’s your point? Are you saying she slept with someone to get to where she is? Is it possible that her own credentials and qualifications got her there? Just because she is beautiful, it doesn’t mean she has prostituded herself to get the job. — CuddlyHedgehog

:brow: :chin:

You're certainly are a strange one. I said she is a charismatic politician. Can I know what that has to do with sleeping with someone? Can I know what that has to do with having or lacking credentials? Can I know what that has to do with being beautiful? :chin:

All right-wing politicians are adept at that. It’s how they compensate for bad judgment and lack of reasoning. — CuddlyHedgehog

:razz: ummm no.